Need for draw speed a myth?

Usually it is the one casting aspersions who feels challenged. Sounds like I hit a nerve.
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No nerve just discussion. My abilities with a gun are irrelevant. I just feel there is more to the fast presentation than just stopping the threat fast.

What cannot be factored is the effect the pressure of your firearm being introduced had on the bad guys aim and decision making. Did he miss because his pucker factor when up when he saw your gun? Did he loose his balance and fall due to it? Did he end the assault or end it earlier?

So IMO being fast is way better than not.
 
I'll almost guarantee that being the first person shot in a gunfight will have a detrimental effect on your performance.
 
I've actually talked about this before at Gun Nuts - the summary of my thoughts being that a fast draw from the holster can absolutely change the game in a self-defense situation. Todd Green from Pistol-Training.Com also picked it up and talked about it, so instead of repeating myself I'll take an excerpt from my post to fully state my opinion on the importance of speed.

Gun Nuts Media said:
While I’m not a big fan of the whole OODA Loop concept for casual shooters, it does provide an adequate example of the benefit of speed in a self defense encounter. The four letters in OODA stand for “Observe, Orient, Decide, Act” and represent the four components of any decision made and especially those made in a dynamic environment. In a mugging situation, your attacker has already reached the “act” phase – he’s observed his target, oriented himself for max advantage, decided when and how to press the attack and is now on the “act” phase of the attack.
Generally, the act of fighting back in and of itself will interrupt your attacker’s decision making process and force him to do a battlefield risk/reward calculation. The speed at which you react will help that calculation end in your favor. Hypothetically example: you’re confronted by an attacker armed with a contact weapon but initially outside of contact range. He’s in the “act” stage – you observe, orient (filter the information through your training and evaluate the best course of action), decide to draw your pistol, and then act on that decision by drawing your pistol. Because you’ve practiced your draw form concealment, you’re able to perform the entire action above in 1.5 seconds or less. Because your attacker was not likely expecting you to react in such an aggressive fashion, you’ve now changed the dynamic of the fight. Instead of you reacting to his initiative, he’s now reacting to your actions. That’s a much more advantageous position for you to be in.
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Speed is a dynamic game changer. It's akin to violence of action in military training - your ability to react at high speed can force an attacker to re-evaluate their decision to press an assault against you.
 
Okay, Todd's website is back up. Here's his post on the importance of a fast draw, and an excerpt from that post:

Pistol-Training said:
If my gun is in my holster when I realize I suddenly need a gun, the sooner it’s in my hand and ready to go, the better. Whether I’m being charged by someone with a knife (as happened to Caleb, in fact) or I’m seeing someone reach for his gun or I’m already behind the power curve and need to do everything I can to get caught up, faster is better.
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I believe proper form is what works best for you, given your style of carry, your physiology, and any limitations (such as from injury or clothing). Speed without form, in my opinion, is simply haste, and leads to fumbles and mistakes.
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Oh, I have seen some slow draw mistakes in my time... ;)

People who simply try to go fast tend to waste a good amount of energy, movement, and often time because they are using speed in areas of the motion that are not great for speed. As you add the weight of the gun to your hand/arm, momentum becomes a factor that you must control. Depending on how you draw, you will have 3 or 4 changes of direction with your gun (both orientation and direction of movement) and if moving at top speed when it is time for a change of direction/orientation, then more distance it will take to make the change, the more energy it will take on behalf of the shooter, and hence more time will be taken.

The place where I see speed being of the most value is getting one's hand to the gun. You have the benefit of your hand impacting the gun to stop the momentum of the hand's movement. After that, it is economy of motion that makes things proceed most efficiently.

Folks who exercise the bowling ball swing tend to be slower to get on target than those that draw the gun from the holster and rotate it to a level orientation toward the threat (aka retention position). It is hard to be on target when your bowling ball swing has the gun pointed at the ground during most of the draw sequence.

Sometimes folks add the fisherman's cast to their draw and I see it a lot with truncated bowling draws. Basically either it is momentum or intention that the shooter swings the pistol up and passes the level of the threat and then has to bring down the muzzle before being in firing position on target.

The reason why folks say "smooth is fast" is often because of the economy of motion. The literally spend less time correcting for the changes in direction when the gun is moving with too much momentum.

With that said, I have watch several folks who have exceptionally smooth bowling ball and fisherman's cast draws that are quick, but they could be a whole lot better.
 
Now, if non-LEOs have some actual verifiable cases where draw speed was a critical part of their defense in a real BG verse GG situation I would love to read them!
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It is hard to illustrate these types of cases because most of the time they are not caught on video. Police gunfights are relatively rare for the individual officer so anectdotes are limited. However, there can be no doubt that the failure to get the pistol out quickly has contibuted to the demise of officers. Now, it can be argued that you should have a pistol in your hand before it gets to that point and I agree that there are many times when we should already have it out but the reality of it is that surprises happen. A bad guy who seems compliant can snap without warning.

Check this video out. Watch one officer than watch it again watching the other. One officer gets a pretty clean draw and gets a round off in about three seconds after moving to the holstered pistol. The other officer struggles to even get his out and had he been under fire at that exact moment, he would have been in trouble. Advance the video to about the 40 second mark to observe:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c3VlMWTJ9GY
 
Anyone ever watch any kind of competition where speed counts, such as a bowling pin match? While there might be some question as to whether or not shooting at bowling pins has much relevance, sometimes interesting points come up.

The first one is, you have to have a reliable gun. I watched one in which more than one contestant had a problem with his gun, automatics in both cases and probably 1911 model .45 autos. I couldn't tell you anything about the ammuntion is use or how much the pistol had been modified but things like that kill speed. Another competitor used a revolver and performed a reload faster than anyone I've ever seen reload an automatic. Again, that has no bearing on a fast draw but it was impressive.

Naturally, in a bowling pin match, the bowling pins just sit there and don't move or shoot back, though you could be forgiven thinking they somehow shrink or somehow dodge the bullets. However, they are relatively small targets just the same and I rather doubt that point and shoot would get you close to winning, even if you were fast. The distance is realistic, I think, and all the competitors used their sights (those that actually fired, that is), so that also must say something.

There's lots of differences between reality and a bowling pin match but just those two things give you something to think about.
 
My experience has been that the vast majority of operating malfunctions occuring with 1911 model .45 autos are magazine-related. (there are a lot of cheap junk magazines on the market that should be avoided for EDC use; good for range malfunction-practice, though.)
Beyond 5-7 ft. or so, when shooting at smallish targets, it is more effective to transition from point-shooting to sight-alignment in hurry-up situations. A little practice doesn't hurt in either case, of course. I sometimes carry a revolver as a New York reload, they are excellent in that back-up role IMO.
 
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Still working on this thread; interesting issues. It helps to re-read the thread, too, so you don't get too far off the subject.

A fast draw will not become a reflex until after lots of practice. Actually, to my way of thinking, it isn't a fast draw that is the reflex so much as it is the draw in the first place. That might be splitting hairs but it doesn't matter how fast (or smooth) you are until you actually draw. It all happens after you make the decision, which I guess is another factor.

The question of a fast draw might be confused with the issue of point shooting but you can engage the target using point shooting after having you gun ready. Frankly, the issues become a little cloudy because real life situations are fluid and gray. You don't always know just what's going on but you still may need to quickly react.

Referring again to the tricked out .45 autos, which I think they all were in the case I mentioned, except for the lone revolver man, while the competitors who lost out because of pistol stoppages, possibly because they were using heavily modified pistols, no doubt the winners were using heavily modified pistols, too. So the conclusions are suspect. Actually, since it was a local match, the pistols in use were unlikely to have been "heavily" modified anyway but I wouldn't be surprised if handloads had been used. As far as the revolver goes, however, I've had stoppages while using a revolver, too.

That thumbsnap on one of my holsters, which I think I mentioned in a different thread, is problematic. Absolutely fine motor control is necessary to avoid a fumble but I'm beginning to think that any issue with fine motor control under stress may be overstated. I'm basing that on my own practice results and on my own experiences doing other things. It is a question of familiarity with what you're doing and keeping a cool head, always easier said than done. But I still think it makes it (the draw) a little slower, though not seriously so. After all, there are always other factors, like the minor detail of weapon retention or issues related to frequent loading and unloading of a pistol. I suppose you just have to find your own comfort level that fits with both your risk assessment and your skill level as it is at the moment, along with a few other things on top of that.
 
I don't know if it is a myth; but in the force-on-force training I've done, it hasn't proved that useful. I had to draw while having a gun pointed at me already in several FOF scenarios. In pretty much anyone of those scenarios, if I just stood there and drew, even if I drew with Jerry Miculek like speed, I would have gotten shot.

Using my brain to think through the problem or recognizing the possible problems developing was a lot more useful than a fast draw. Not that a fast draw isn't a nice cherry-on-top of the sundae; but if I could choose between a 2.5 second draw from concealment and a superhuman OODA loop or a 0.5 second draw from concealment and my current OODA abilities, I'd take the 2.5 second draw.

The draw is just the "A" part of the OODA loop. Cutting time off there is nice; but the most time is usually wasted in the "OOD" part. Cutting time from that will leave you with lots of time to draw.
 
The draw is just the "A" part of the OODA loop. Cutting time off there is nice; but the most time is usually wasted in the "OOD" part.
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And if you already took longer than desirable in the OOD part, the shorter A may be what saves you.
 
Can't see any argument against the value of a faster draw...

... so long as practice is conducted safely.

However, finding places where one can practice can be problematic.

Lucky for me, I have a large backyard, bordered by rising terrain into woods. IE, my backyard is my shooting range.

One thing I figured out quickly is that thumb straps slow me down, and cause occasional fumbling. I suppose I could have just trained more on the strap, but found it more efficient to get holsters that rise higher around the gun, and hold retention via friction. Sam Andrews for my autos, SimplyRugged or Galco for my revolvers. These hold the weapons reliably, but do not require extra steps while under stress or time limits.
 
JMHO

JUst a thought. Go to an IPSC,or USPSA match in your area, find out which guys are Masters or Grand Masters, watch them shoot, and then figure out how much draw speed is worth.
It ain't that hard to get a fast draw, if you practice, not fast like a GM, but fast enough to make the difference, maybe.I'll take the maybe. You guys do practice, right?:D,FAST IS NOT FAST, SMOOTH IS FAST. IT CAN ONLY COME WITH PRACTICE:cool:
We had a stage that we called "One Shot". Standard IPSC Target at 21'. Hands in the "Surrender" position,(Hands Up, above the shoulders), beeper goes off and you draw and put one round downrange, My best was .7 seconds with an "A" hit, Paul Mason, a Grand Master, did it in .2, also with an "A" hit. For me, I was proud of my time, and it gave me some confidence, but I would rather be able to do it in .2, if you get my drift.How do you get to Carnagie Hall?? PRACTICE, PRACTICE,PRACTICE:D:D
Willy
 
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I don't know if it is a myth; but in the force-on-force training I've done, it hasn't proved that useful. I had to draw while having a gun pointed at me already in several FOF scenarios. In pretty much anyone of those scenarios, if I just stood there and drew, even if I drew with Jerry Miculek like speed, I would have gotten shot.
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In FoF your opponent is expecting you to draw, where in the real world the bad guy might not be expecting any resistance from you.
 
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