Need for draw speed a myth?

mikerault said:
two men facing off amano amano
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Point of order!


Mike,

It's supposed to be "mano a mano", spanish for hand to hand. Originally a term from bull fighting that referred to two matadors taking turns torturing, er, fighting, the bull. Though modern usage generally means something closer "man to man" or "one on one".
:D:D
 
Right. Plus, amaño actually translates as skill/dexterity or trick/ruse.

Most of us will never be able to draw and shoot like Munden or others.
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While accurate, this statement probably gives us way too much credit. Virtually none of us will ever be able to draw and shoot like Munden or other such notable shooters.
 
Conditioned reflex response.
The more a neural pathway is used the more efficient the impulses flow along that rout. Such efficiencies enable faster movements.
Good technique that eliminates wasted movements elevates the potential further.
Each of us however; have physiological limits.
Knowing your limits dictates your best tactic for a given situation.
This is why consistency in training and technique is important. This is why realistic situational training is likewise; very important.
I agree wholeheartedly with the sentiment that “a rapidly misplaced shot cannot help you” but you simply cannot discount the importance of mastering as much speed as you are capable of.
 
Practice drawing from concealment can be done at home very easily with a triple checked empty gun and is only limited by how crazy you make your wife walking around drawing down on things in the house. :D
 
The gun doesn't put itself in your hand. Regardless of how you carry you should be well practiced at accessing your weapon. There's no excuse for being slow on the draw.
 
Bottom Line:

1. There are some indisputable benefits associated with being able to deploy your self defense handgun quickly.

2. I cannot think of a single reason why I would want to be slow.
 
Remember the recent shooting in Tucson, involving congresswoman Giffords?

I have it on reliable authority that the Federal judge who also died was armed and wasn't able to deploy it fast enough :(. And he wasn't the first one shot, either.

Dammit.
 
Jim,

I suspect the judge was sorely lacking in both situational awareness and draw speed. Both of those shortcomings together pretty much guaranteed a bad ending.

I believe there is a lesson in this for all of us. While it had been quite a long time since we had experienced a political assassination of that magnitude, all of us knew that they can and do happen. If we allow the passing of time to lull us into a state of "code white", even the most accomplished drawing and shooting skills will not be of much use. :(
 
2. I cannot think of a single reason why I would want to be slow.
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You don't want your draw to attact attention to your activity through your sudden quick draw motion. It may be much more stealthy to have a slow draw than a quick one. Whether or not you need to be able to draw in a manner that doesn't attract attention may determine whether drawing fast or drawing slow is prudent.
 
I'll never forget at an IDPA meet a couple of years ago, . . . one poor guy had a beautiful S&W stainless 1911, . . . in an Uncle Mike's holster.

The drill was to draw, . . . 2 to the body, 1 to the head, . . . at I think 10 feet. We all were done, holstered, . . . he was still trying to get his gun out of the holster.

He would not have fared well in a confrontation.

May God bless,
Dwight
 
Scott Evans: Conditioned reflex response.
The more a neural pathway is used the more efficient the impulses flow along that rout. Such efficiencies enable faster movements.
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"Fast draw" is a reflex for me but it's the kind of reflex the doctor checks when he taps my knee with that little rubber hammer. It is an involuntary nervous system thing, not conscious muscle control.

Draw speed can be greatly increased using this system. Envision the jerk reflex of placing your hand on a hot stove. Now imagine your gun is that stove... I've heard it claimed that the human jerk reflex is 4 times faster than the strike of a rattlesnake (I will not be confirming that :D).

You can practice this without a gun in your hand, in fact I highly recommend it. It's very easy to injure yourself due to the high forces involved. Your tendons need time to become conditioned.

True enough it is not required every time you draw but it is a good trick to know since knowledge often means survival.
 
I'm paraphrasing here because I can't remeber the exact quote. Clint Smith said something to the effect of "I've never seen a timer at a real gun fight".

However true that may be, I'm of the opinion that as long as you maintain accuracy; the faster you are the better.

I've known many men who have been in real gun battles. Due to my age only a couple lived during the early 20th century. I remember meeting one man when I was a boy in South Texas, who in the early teens (1913-1915) drew and killed three armed Mexican bandits while guarding a payroll shipment. None of the three got off a shot. Now, I doubt there was a timer there, but I'm going to guess he did it fairly fast. ;)
 
The only thing I disagree with in this whole thread is that slow and steady win no races. But you still have to avoid going into the guardrail, as in droping your gun. If you have trying to get that fast draw down pat, sooner or later you might fumble. That gives you a reality check. I said in another thread that if you could get that gun out as easily as you get your wallet out, smoothly, effortlessly and "naturally," then you're getting somewhere. If it were only that easy.

Also in another thread I mentioned how some of these topics make me experiment and, sometimes, think about the little details that confound our efforts. There is the frequent discussion of what condition to carry your pistol in, and how the chamber empty carry requires two hands to get into action (Single Action Army excepted). After a while I realized that some concealed carry methods require two hands to even execute a draw. I'm referring to wearing a sweater or sweatshirt over everything and which can't just be swept aside by your gun hand. Right away there's a problem but it is a problem of one degree or another with any concealed carry method. And the "deeper" the concealment, the more difficult the draw will be, no doubt.

Even the difference between two different handguns (the grips, actually) can make a difference in the ease of the draw, though the easiest to draw might also be the more difficult to conceal, if that's important.
 
Remember the recent shooting in Tucson, involving congresswoman Giffords?

I have it on reliable authority that the Federal judge who also died was armed and wasn't able to deploy it fast enough . And he wasn't the first one shot, either.

Dammit.
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Your profanity is misplaced. You state that the judge was not able to deploy his gun fast enough and that he wasn't even the first one shot. So after Zamudio, we now have a second person carrying who was not able to stop the carnage? I have to admit, such shortcomings do little to support the claims of pro-gun folks who cry out in a Sally Struthers-like manner that if just one person there had a gun, that the carnage could have been stopped. As noted previously, Zamudio wasn't actually on scene until AFTER all the shooting had stopped. So the fact that he had a gun bore no relevance on the situation.

So now you provide us new information that on good authority that Judge Roll was carrying a gun and could not deploy it fast enough and that he wasn't even the first one shot. Why do you think that is? Was Loughner so fast that he was able to shoot multiple people before shooting the judge before the judge had time to draw is concealed gun and stop the carnage? So you have it on good authority that Judge Roll was actually attempting to deploy his gun when he was shot? Maybe he was, but the reason for not being successful isn't because he didn't have time to deploy it during Loughner's lighting fast shooting spree as Loughner wasn't lightning fast. Given that Judge Roll was with Giffords behind the table that separated them (and some others) from the constituents in line to speak with Giffords, Judge Roll must have gone down next to Giffords behind the table, right?

While you claim that Judge Roll didn't have time to deploy the gun he supposedly had, he did have time to leave Giffords' side after she was shot and to move around from behind the table to being in front of it to help Ron Barber who who worked for Giffords and who was the person shot after Giffords. By the time Judge Roll got to Barber, Loughner had shot others. Then Loughner shot Judge Roll.

http://hubpages.com/hub/Tragedy-In-Tucson-Judge-Roll-NOT-Loughners-Primary-Target

http://www.azcentral.com/news/artic...ffords-aide-ron-barber-recounts-shooting.html

Given that the disucssion here is about the necessity of drawn speed and that you are using the Giffords event shooting as an example of a person not being fast enough despite being armed, you might save your profanity for a better reason.

If he had a gun, Judge Roll had the time to draw a gun. The problem is that Judge Roll didn't draw his supposedly carried gun and shoot Loughner before attempting to render aid. So it would be tactics, not timing, that resulted in Judge Roll's death and apparent failure to deploy his own gun and stop the carnage.

Was Judge Roll trying to draw his own gun when he was killed? There is no indication of it. If he was, not being able to get it out in time wasn't due to the slowness of his draw or Loughner's speed. It would have been because he decided way too late to draw his gun, after several folks had been shot and after he physically changed locations to render aid.

Thusfar, I have seen no information that indicates that Judge Roll was at any time ever attempting to draw any sort of weapon when he was shot. Given that he was on the ground and facing away from Loughner when he was shot in the back, it would not appear that he had any intention of confronting the shooter what-so-ever.
http://milwaukee.wisgop.info/2011/01/22/judge-john-roll-was-a-hero-why-didnt-we-know-this/

The Judge is a hero, but not for trying to stop the shooter. He was trying to save Ron Barber's life by rendering aid.

This summary of the event indicates that Roll tackled Barber to get him out of the line of fire. There are some partial recreations of the security tape video from Safeway.
http://abcnews.go.com/US/jared-loughners-alleged-rampage-caught-tape-fbi-reviews/story?id=12644306
 
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That's a failure of paying attention to your surroundings.

You should never have to lightning draw your handgun-ever.

If you feel that uncomfortable in a situation,you should already be withdrawing -yourself- from the situation,looking for cover and drawing your gun at the same time.

High noon faceoffs are for actors in movies where they are ALWAYS shooting blanks.
 
Well...there was that time a dog was charging me and I mentally drew a line in the dirt...maybe I can't judge speed well but he was coming faster than I originally thought so I had to draw in a hurry. Luckily I had already practiced drawing from concealment so it was a no fumble situation...(for those unfamilier with my dog attack, I shot once into the dirt and turned him)
 
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