My Keltec P32 just DIED!!!

I picked up my circa-1917 vintage S&W .32 Regulation Police a year or so ago and discovered that the mainspring had snapped right where the strain screw bears on it.

I've replaced a couple of broken springs in Ruger revolvers over the years.

Saw the main spring on a Colt 1911 break on a guy at the range a couple of years ago when I was working at the gun shop.
 
You guys tossing out the casual notion that springs breaking are to be expected worry me, not so much you saying it but that other people may believe it. It's never happened to me in 30 years of gun ownership, and I've owned and shot a lot of guns, both autos and revolvers. I've had some guns that didn't work well and if I couldn't resolve the problem I got rid of them, but the only part I've ever had actually break on any pistol I've owned was the extractor on a Keltec P-11. The hook just disappeared one day. Keltec was good about replacing it but I don't own a Keltec any more. It shouldn't have happened with less than 100 rounds through the gun.
 
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One positive thing is the way the Keltec broke. With the hammer flopped out and spare parts in your pocket you knew right away that it needed attention. FWIW, you did not continue to carry it as weapon you could have relied upon while ignorant of its problem. It communicated "hey fix me." I'd rather know this way than pull it out to use and hear click click. I still plan to own a second one. Even though none of the springs in the guns I have ever owned has failed.
Assesment of taxes is a guarantee also.
 
HOO BOY

Uh, Glock springs 'just break', and SIG 220's have cracked frames (and so do lot of aluminum 45's) and Ruger wheels can have primer ignition problems and Sterlings were NEVER good and S&W has bull**** politics and Colt couldn't do ANYTHING right and Steyr has too many parts and Daewoo has NO spare parts and my EAA Witnesses are perfect.

Who did I leave out? Oh yeah, STI sent Mr. Big a test gun and the BARREL WAS BAD!
See, the earth really can spin the other way.

I want a pair of P32's, because I like them and I carry at least two guns; know what I mean?

Not yet?

Reread this thread......
 
personal interpetation of this thread-

Quality Assurance in the manufacture of firearms parts and assembling of firearms is lower than par for the safety products industries as a whole. And that's what a gun is, like a fire extinguisher or anti-lock brake system. When I worked for a company that manufactured anti-lock brake systems for cars, even one failure of a unit (out of thousands) by the customers QA department (not even installed on a marketed vehicle) would be cause for them to consider cancelling future contracts. My experiences with recently purchased firearms from respected companies, as well as second-hand reports form the firearms community online ALMOST make me believe the industry NEEDS consumer safety regulation. Most people who buy handguns are not avid shooters or 'gun savvy'. Many of them buy a handgun for protection, load it, and put it up without ever firing it.
Before people get on their high-horses and start preaching to the choir about the need for training and practice, let's just accept this as fact: Many people, believe it or not, are economically disadvantaged but still want and deserve the means to defend themselves. Some of them, such as the elderly and single parents, are on fixed incomes and have little means to augment their income and can barely afford a gun. They cannot afford and/or don't have access to training, ranges and large quantities of ammunition.
It should be possible to consistently produce and QA handguns that will work as close to 100% as technically feasible with at least ball ammo. We (firearms consumers) are not getting anywhere near the level of consistancy that is possible. Why? Because the gun industry is 'Self" regulated and we continue to buy and accept the unreliable products they let past their QA programs.

I do not favor government imposed consumer safety regulations. As we all know, the current state and federal governments have and will continue to use such regulations to undermine the second amendment and make firearms even more inaccessible. But I do believe we deserve better quality than we are getting.

Patrick Mc
 
"You guys tossing out the casual notion that springs breaking are to be expected..."

Not a casual notion at all.

Just an inconvenient fact.
 
Quality control to make guns 100% reliable is probably one of the last things our government would want to be involved in. You really think the liberals care if your gun doesn't work? I like the idea of a consumer coalition almost a consumer reports for guns. That would be a lot better than these gun rags which are nothing but paid for gun ads put forth as objective coverage. Somebody should get busy on this. I'll be one of the first subscribers.
 
rugerfreak...

I was being nice.
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No, you weren't. That "my gun good - your gun bad" crap doesn't cut it here.

No--its never happened to me because I don't buy crappy Kel-tecs.
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Just crappy Rugers, eh?

One of my shooting buddies recently bought a new SRH. Wouldn't fire a full cylinder and it has gone back to Ruger to be "fixed". He's not pleased.

I trade Kel-Tecs all the time. Last week I passed on two...they had been really abused and looked it. But they both still worked.

One of my P-11s has nearly 3,000 rounds through it and has never failed me. It gets carried regularly in the summertime.

Have you ever owned a Kel-Tec?

I don't consider a faulty spring to be a major indictment of a machine. If I did, I'd have to buy another brand of garage door.

Instead, I just replaced the tension spring that broke at the eye. <shrug>
 
pmglock,
It should be possible to consistently produce and QA handguns that will work as close to 100% as technically feasible with at least ball ammo.
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We're already getting that. I don't think you realize the forces that are involved with making a machine that has to withstand near instantaneous pressure rises of 32,000 psi and then back to nothing just as quickly.
We (firearms consumers) are not getting anywhere near the level of consistancy that is possible.
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Wrong, wrong, wrong! There is absolutely no way to ensure that a spring, for example, will not suddenly fail. Likewise for any metal part undergoing rapid force changes. Their liklihood of failure would be decreased if the parts were made thicker, heavier, etc., but who would be able to handle a 27 pound .32 pistol?
Why? Because the gun industry is 'Self" regulated and we continue to buy and accept the unreliable products they let past their QA programs.
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Wrong, wrong, wrong! There IS such a thing as free market forces, which dictate what will and will not sell. THEY regulate what's produced, not government or other regulations.

The only things that would be accomplished by implementing your suggestions is that prices would go up, selection would go down, and everybody would be very mad at ... YOU!
 
Mike,
I guess I just have better luck with guns and ammo than you do. With your Remington centerfire misfires (several calibers according to you) and broken springs I'd think about learning to throw knives or something. As I said, its never happened to me or anybody I know. It's going to be major when and if it does. Not to be expected.
 
KEl Tec has a really good service policy. :)

I had a flaw in a barrel. Sent it and the bill of sale and return shipping cost and another barrel came back by return mail.

So if that broken Kel Tec was mine I'd just take a broom and dustpan and sweep that 'lil bugger into a pile, scoop it up and send it back for fixin'.
 
THE "PERFECT" GUN

I LOVE to gloat when I witness its operator stare stupidly at the now-broken "perfect" gun, wondering what to do.........

Machines break, and if you want a MORE-perfect ('cause there'll NEVER be perfect) gun expect to pay five times as much for it (and then it'll jam on cheap ammo LOL).
 
As I read revolvergeek's post, he isn't asking what to do with the gun, he know's it needs to go back to Keltec. He's asking how he will ever have faith in it again. I think he's answered his own question. Do you guys think they're going to replace whatever's broken with anything better? Just pull one out of a bin full of the same parts, replace it and ship it back out. When my Keltec P-11 came back with a new extractor I knew I'd never have peace of mind carrying it any more. 200 rounds were more than I cared to fire to find out if it worked reliably as the nasty trigger made my finger sore anyway. I believe in pistols you GENERALLY do get what you pay for, and the Keltec and a few others (names on request) were what taught me the lesson. Sorry, but revolvergeek asked and that's the truth as I perceive it. Glocks and Beretta 92's may have certain springs break and I hear about them generally from the institutional military and police armorers but the numbers in use are HUGE and I bet the percentage is extremely small. I have a Wolff trigger spring unit ready to go for my 92FSC but I may never get around to putting it in. I'm betting I never need to.
 
Blackhawk

It is obvious you also have a strong opinion about the issue of firearms QC and I appreciate your intelligent and restrained response. I would like to simplify and clarify my view if I can:


>>>We're already getting that. I don't think you realize the forces that are involved with making a machine that has to withstand near instantaneous pressure rises of 32,000 psi and then back to nothing just as quickly.


You are correct in stating my limited understanding of the engineering challenges related to firearms production. However,
I have been involved in the manufacture of anti-lock brake assemblies, which are far more complex than any firearm available for sale to private citizens. These units are electro-mechanical and use a hydraulic/pneumatic system controlled by a microprocessor. The going price of the finished units in volume was something like $249. QA was maintained by human inspectors and robotic testing stations. Parts quality was constantly at issue, and vendors would be dropped if, for example, a certain number of springs failed after being installed.
I don't understand what, other than the lack of concern, would make it so difficult to apply these QC measures.

With my limited understanding of the firearms manufacturing process and challenges, and to be fair, I may be comparing apples to oranges.

But I do view firearms as a safety product, just like a smoke alarm, a seat belt, or an automobile braking system. Would you trust the lives of your loved ones to such a device if it had the same rate of inconsistancey as the firearms many of us have been buying?

>>>Wrong, wrong, wrong! There is absolutely no way to ensure that a spring, for example, will not suddenly fail.

While it is true it would be impossible to test each individual spring, the chances for failure can be reduced by stringent application of QC measures. I don't believe we are getting the level of QC that is technically and humanly possible. We are getting "the industry standard" which is not the same thing at all.
As for cost, you don't always get what you pay for. People here on the forums, individuals I know personally, and I myself have all bought guns that should never have left the factory from highly regarded companies. NEEDING a great repair policy is a sign of a company with poor QC practices. Spend the money you allocate to
your repair department on QC and you will save everyone a lot of trouble. All machines wear out, but brand new out of the box?:rolleyes:

>>>The only things that would be accomplished by implementing your suggestions is that prices would go up, selection would go down, and everybody would be very mad at ... YOU!

I state again: I don't trust government regulation as a means to solve the problem. But I stand by my assertion that we are not getting the gun companies best possible effort. And I must disagree with the suggestion that you can't increase quality without increasing cost and reducing selection. Every other major industry in the country lives and dies by doing just that. The firearms manufacturers should be able to do the same.

I hope no one will be mad at me for simply expressing my opinion about an issue- it's not as though I can impose these suggestions on the manufacturers by myself.



Patrick:)
 
Weldonjr2001 pretty much hit the nail on the head. My comment was not intended to start a big arguement / discussion on the quality control of firearms manufacturers or rant against the Keltec P32. I really really like my P32. My post was simply the venting of a slightly irrational heartbeak at the unexpected oddball failure of a favored little BUG.

I really do appreciate everyone's thoughts on the matter. The guns that I normally carry are all perfectly reliable, and maybe i have just been lucky in the past but i have never had one just out of the blue fail in this fashion. Since i first started buying and shooting pistols i have owned 65 that i can remember off of the top of my head, probably a few more that i am forgetting. Maybe 10 of those were bought as wallhangers, the rest had the hell shot out of them. I have never had a pistol break a spring. I have only had two break parts and fail while shooting. This failure just plain spooked me.

I have talked to the nice people at Keltec and they said they had not heard of a mainspring breaking in a P32 before, so I am going to send it back and let them check it out to make sure that it was just a bad spring and not some parts somewhere that are slightly out of spec that caused the spring to fail. I will probably have them hardchrome the slide while it is there.

Once it is fixed I will probably end up putting another 200 - 300 rounds through it before i actually start carrying it again at all. Even then it will be a long time, if ever, before I carry it by itself.
 
pmglock,

You're just expressing your opinion. Nobody's mad at you for that. They WOULD be mad at you if you were able to and did implement what you think should be done as per your opinion.

At this point, Kel-Tek has made about 120,000 P11s. That's a measly number that does not justify manufacturing their own springs -- they use springs, but that's not their business. Look up precision spring manufacturers. You'll find several. It's a complicated process to take hard, high carbon steel, beryllium copper, etc., and fashion it into springs that have precise dimensions, rates, etc. After forming, they have to be stress relieved and tested before they ever leave the manufacturer. It's not a process that's done on a onesy-twosy basis, and it involves a bunch of expensive machines, furnaces, processes, and highly skilled and specialized workers. The point is that KT, like nearly every other manufacturer that uses springs in their products, undoubtedly buys them from specialized spring manufacturers. Springs can be prototyped by hand winding, etc., but prototypes are not suitable for commercial use because they're not stress relieved, etc., and highly prone to premature failure.

My arguments opposing your opinion can be summed up this way. Free market forces will eliminate businesses that don't meet the price/performance/quality requirements of customers. Regulators who know less about the processes involved than the manufacturers are NOT a solution to a the misperceived problem you think exists. While Occum's Razor may apply, so does the admonition that "there's safety in a multitude of counsel." However, both presume that the simple solution includes all the elements of the situation and that the counselors are skilled and knowledgeable in the subject field.

If you don't like KT's, Ruger's, Glock's, General Motors', or any other manufacturer's products, don't buy them. That's all you need to do to force them to "make things better." Don't succumb to favoring some half-brained government solution to a problem you don't even understand. Instead follow Lincoln's maxim that "government should do for the people what the people cannot do for themselves." So, if the marketplace can solve the problems you think you see, leave government out of it! It can....
 
We don't have a free market. We may have a "freer" market than most, but by no means a free market at all. Free market economy is end-result based. Poor quality products or products that are too expensive will not survive in the free market economy and the end result will be better products at better prices for the consumers. What this notion forgets are all the poor quality products that start up, survive for a while, and then fade. Sure enough, the products don't last very long and so the free market economy appears to work. During their brief histories, poor products mean lost wages, down time, injury and death in some cases for the others who use the products.

Sure enough, a free market is self-regulating, but does nothing to keep crap products from being introduced into the market.
 
Sure enough, a free market is self-regulating, but does nothing to keep crap products from being introduced into the market.
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Well, DUH! ;-)

If it DID keep inferior products from being introduced, it wouldn't be a "free market" would it?

Have you ever bought an unknown manufacturer's Model 1, Serial Number 1 product? I didn't think so. Neither have I. There are always some early adopters willing to take a chance on anything new. They're on the leading edge (bleeding edge) of technology. Wonderful! We owe them a great debt for smoking out the inferior products so we don't have to bother with them.
 
I guess the big questions are:

Does Kel-Tec make guns that are as well made as the other, larger gun companies?

And,

Does Kel-Tec make guns that meet the minimum level of reliability for a safety device?


Because Kel-Tec sells guns aimed at the self-defense market, I consider their guns to be safety devices. Having a good customer service department does not make up for a lack of reliability if the device fails when needed. Let me put it this way, if Kel-Tec made parachutes, would I buy one? For me, the answer is no...
 
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