The 1911 is my gun of choice. Yet I have lots of other guns in all different calibers that I like to shoot from time to time. As a pistol instructor, I found a wonderful training tool to be a SIRT laser training pistol for my students. This is not intended as an endorsement for a particular manufacturer but simply to state that I first began using SIRT pistol so students could actually see what they were doing, getting the feel for trigger control, proper breathing, etc and doing so without the noise of the range and not sending expending any ammo, which is also a cost cutting benefit. One day I picked up the SIRT pistol to play around with it myself before I went to the range to shoot other than a 1911. I got quite a surprise to see what I was doing with other than a 1911. I became so used to the 1911 that a different style gun felt almost foreign in my hands. After "correcting" my grip with the SIRT pistol, I then took a Glock 17 (same gun as the SIRT pistol) to the range and was pleased that my practice proved fruitful. I could have "corrected" my shooting without the use of the SIRT pistol but I was happy to use my ammo while being on target.
My 1911 has ruined me
- Thread starter Roland Thunder
- Start date
Keith Sanderson Article on Pistol Dry-Fire Training
This article from SFC Keith Sanderson is excellent;
http://www.usashooting.org/library/Instructional/Pistol/pistol_sanderson_sept_oct_2009.pdf
His dry-firing technique applies to whatever gun or trigger type you happen to have. In addition, every YouTube instructional video from this guy is amazing!
This article from SFC Keith Sanderson is excellent;
http://www.usashooting.org/library/Instructional/Pistol/pistol_sanderson_sept_oct_2009.pdf
His dry-firing technique applies to whatever gun or trigger type you happen to have. In addition, every YouTube instructional video from this guy is amazing!
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I have been thinking about this a little bit...McGivern used revolvers for his speed shooting too. HE could shoot a revolver faster than a semi auto.
I cannot. I think using the example of a couple of the worlds fastest shooters, who were truly exceptional individuals, as examples of "what anyone can do if they practice enough", or using their choice of equipment as "the best for everyone" is not looking at reality directly.
I am put in mind of runners, who look at the shoes the champions are wearing, and pontificate on how this, or that running shoe is best, and how you just can't "run" in regular sneakers, and how you need this shoe in order to be the best, etc.
And then, along comes a fellow who beats the champions, ...and does it barefoot!
I also think it is incorrect to look at a style of trigger function, SA, DA, DAO, (and why does no one say SAO??
) alone, and proclaim one superior, without considering the REST of the package (the gun & the shooter).I will freely admit, I have almost no experience with a DAO semi auto. I have shot a couple, at the range, helping out a friend. Pocket sized, & polymer framed. Other than the fact that the one with the plastic trigger didn't break as I half expected it would, I was not impressed, one way or the other. So, at this point, for me, the DAO is not good, bad, better, or best, its more a question of "why bother?"
A quick mental count says I have 20 semi auto handguns (might have left out a couple..) 3 of them are DA/SA guns. None are DAO. OF the 3 DA guns, none were bought because of the DA feature. I didn't get a Walther P.38 because it was a DA auto. I didn't get the Wildey because it was a DA auto (and was rather surprised to learn it was a DA auto!). I didn't get my Browning BDA because it was a DA, either, but of the three, the Browning is the only one I have ever fired more than once or twice in DA mode. (Have not yet fired the Wildey in DA, and have no plans to.)
So, when I hear, "if you shot DA (or DAO) you'd be better, without any mention of what gun you were shooting, I think of my P.38 vs my Browning BDA, as examples of what a DA auto can be. Then I compare that to SA autos (and not JUST the 1911A1) I have personal experience with. Some of them are very, very good, some, not so much.
Make all the blanket statements you want, for, or against, but understand that some of us aren't taking them at full face value, because we know we aren't the top "speedracer" class shooters, and/or we don't have the guns you have.
As to the OP, sorry your 1911 "spoiled" you.
But, isn't it really a personal matter??
Driving 100 miles a day for years in a Ford Escort didn't spoil me driving a Dodge pick up, but I will admit it took a little bit of mental adjustment to feel comfortable again in the other rig.
A well set up 1911 pattern gun IS easier to shoot well than many other designs, for me, at least. And due to the overall popularity of them, I don't think I'm a lone voice in the wilderness on that.
I also shoot the 1911 platform significantly better than any other autoloading pistol I have ever used. Instead of worrying over this, I just sold the others (with the exception of the Ruger 22/45), and happily accept the fact that I don't need to own other types. This isn't a problem for me, and I am thrilled that the latest and the greatest new pistols on the market hold no appeal for me and thus no drain on my wallet.
cougar gt-e
New member
The skill needed to move the finger (ONLY!) while holding the hand perfectly still changes depending on how much force is needed and the distance the force is applied. Even greater skill is needed if the force changes across the distance.
So, moving the trigger a small distance using little force while holding the hand perfectly still, takes less skill than movingbit a greater distance and or with higher force.
I realize that "truth", sadly I've gone the easy route and trigger jobs are done to all my guns. It's a skill I'd love to possess, but haven't been able to master.
plus, I hate crappy triggers! They show my lack of skill.
So, moving the trigger a small distance using little force while holding the hand perfectly still, takes less skill than movingbit a greater distance and or with higher force.
I realize that "truth", sadly I've gone the easy route and trigger jobs are done to all my guns. It's a skill I'd love to possess, but haven't been able to master.
plus, I hate crappy triggers! They show my lack of skill.anothernewb
New member
I did a similar thing. The end result was that my gunsmith has made a boatload of money doing all my triggers.
I just brought Miculek up as he came to mind, and is well known, and easy to look up. Many dont seem to have a clue as to who Ed McGivern is/was, although he was a phenomenal shooter as well. As I understand it, most of his shooting was done with factory S&W's.
Ive known quite a few "ordinary" people, who were/are amazing DAO shooters, a couple of whom, were former police officers and avid PPC shooters. PPC being something else that brings a "huh?" from a lot of people these days when you mention it.
Then again, perhaps its the "era" we are from that makes this seem so strange and alien, or not. It is kind of funny though, how the 1911's basically got the whole "tuning and customizing" industry started back in the 70's, and still drives a good part of the industry today. Before that, we just shot what we got, and didnt know any better.
If youve ever watched someone who can shoot DA shoot in that manner, it truly is a wonderment. It can easily be you too, if youre willing to try. But like other things gun related (concealed carry being the another of similar consternation), its simply a matter of "want" on the shooters part. If you dont want to, thats fine, just dont be mad, when you try to tell some of us "you cant", when we know darn well, "you can", and call you on it.
I didn't mean to sound totally pessimistic, only realistic. And reality is that while most folks with a desire and dedication can learn to master a great many things, some people never quite do, despite a desire practice. I've found it relatively easy to hit targets out to a couple hundred yards with a handgun (although some models do take a lot more time to learn and master), and have had a number of people ask to be taught how. Some learn to do it easily, some with difficulty, and some, despite their best efforts, never do.
In my own shooting, rapid accurate DA fire was a seeming impossibility for me, until I turned 30, and somehow, magically, I found I could actually hit a few things that way. A shooting buddy of mine, was a natural DA shot, (something I was envious of for some time), and could, with his model 19, pick off the letters FORD from an old car trunk in about as many seconds, or less. On the other hand, he never could tag the 200yd rifle gong offhand, one handed, which I could do regularly with my favorite Blackhawk.
Now, since we are in the semi auto forum, and talking DA shooting, my experience with DA revolvers is mostly moot, other than in most general terms, I would think.
Since I don't have a DAO semi auto, I am unlikely to master the skill of shooting one, but I really don't see the difference between DAO and SA in trigger pull style (or type). Meaning you get one pull, constant, no matter what it is, long or short, heavy or light, the point is its always the same, right?
So, isn't just a matter of mastering the pull, for each individual gun, no matter what it happens to be? SO, what is the basis for saying a DA auto (DAO) trigger type is going to make a better shooter, once they master it?
Mastering the DAO trigger is like learning to drive a stick in a car or truck. It allows you to drive pretty much anything, where only knowing how to drive an automatic, limits you.
Ive owned a couple DAO autos, and a good many, DA autos, and even more SA autos, and and once I became comfortable with shooting DAO, shooting any of them was never an issue.
Ive owned a couple DAO autos, and a good many, DA autos, and even more SA autos, and and once I became comfortable with shooting DAO, shooting any of them was never an issue.
Couldn't agree with you more, but I'm going to be the devil's advocate here. Back in the day, we all learned to drive stick because it made you a better overall driver regardless of what you drove. It was a little more complicated and more time consuming to learn this way, but if you practiced with it, you got the hang of it.
Today, few people are learning stick partly because there are fewer cars & trucks with manual transmissions, but in large part because it's a lot easier to learn with an automatic, which overrides the higher principal of learning the right way to be a better driver.
The best shooters I know personally have spent a lot of time first learning trigger control by shooting heavy DA semi autos and revolvers. A friend is an excellent shooter, and he dry-fires and live-fires regularly with an ex-NYPD S&W 5946 turn in, with a horrendous 12lb DAO trigger, if you can control the trigger on this beast, any other gun is cake to shoot! Again a light single action trigger is easier to shoot, but the higher principal is that you learn trigger control best with a heavy DA or DAO pull, making it easy to transition between different types of guns with easier triggers.
The car analogy fails because most people never become experts running a clutch even back in the days when they dominated the market. People 99% of the time became just good enough to be mediocre drivers. . People have automatic transmissions these days primarily because if fuel efficiency not ease of learning. Today's automatic transmissions are much more energy efficient and proficient then humans running a manual clutch. Semi automatic dual clutch systems like one finds in a BMW M3
Just like with guns there is a small percentage of people who have truly mastered heal and toe shifting etc... and can run a transmission better than a nicely designed automatic. Just because you can drive a standard does not mean you can jump into an 18 wheeler or a Ferrari F1 and make it do what it was designed to do. Simply because you can run a stick shift does not make one a better driver. Just like slapping away at a 12lb NY trigger does not make you a better pistol shooter. Just because I can manage a 12 DAO pull does not mean I can also handle a 3lb perfectly tuned 1911 or Pardini.
I understand what you trying to say it but I am not sure that you are saying it well. Again in the end it is all about trigger control on your platform of choice. IMHO
Speak for yourself.
There are a LOT of people these days cant drive with an automatic! Whats more amazing is, the number that cant drive a stick at all.
We learned on standard transmission cars, trucks, and tractors as kids, and didnt drive an automatic for quite awhile.
Just like shooting DAO without thought once you become familiar with it, driving a stick is no different, and its all subconscious. You just start out and run through the gears, and downshift when necessary, and all the while still multitasking. Even with a "three on the tree".
Again, speak for yourself. Ive done both. Was driving a tri-axle dump around today, and back in my 20's, was driving my then boss's '74 Ferrari GT4 sedan, with him in the back. I got to drive it a good bit without him in the car too, among other things.
Its a lot easier to drive things that have a stick when you know how, than it is when you dont, but again, like a DAO trigger, its easily learned, if you put your mind to it. I bought my wife a '76 VW Rabbit that was a manual transmission, and she had little experience driving a stick. She was driving it, and better than mediocre, by the end of that same day, and drove it to work the next. She learned to shoot DAO on a S&W model 10, and still shoots one well. Shes pretty good with anything you hand her too.
Youre right, a bad driver is a bad driver, but being a reasonably capable driver, and being able to drive a stick, does make you more well rounded, and valuable. The company I currently work for, requires you be able to drive a stick to work there, as three quarters of their vehicles are manual transmissions. They would prefer you had a CDL, and many do, but its not required to drive onsite, and you are expected to jump on anything that needs run and get it done.
It is a very similar analogy when it comes to shooting the different trigger types. Once you have the DA/DAO triggers down, you can shoot pretty much anything without issue, and without thought. The reverse is not generally true of those who are strictly SA shooters.
While the analogy with stick shift and automatic transmissions is similar its not exact.
The general principle is that if you master a complex task, you will be able to perform a simpler task well.
And as a general principle, it is true, but in detail, it's often not. Or rather, not without a learning curve. Now, if you are skilled in the complex task, the learning curve (or relearning curve) for the simple one will be short, but it will be there.
Sticking with driving, for a moment, if you learn on a standard, and drive nothing else, what happens the first time you get into an automatic? (looks around the floorboard in panic..."where's the freakin clutch????" LEARNING CURVE.
Likewise, when you've only driven standards for some time, but know how to drive an automatic, and are just out of practice, you might get a surprise when the clutch pedal you stomp on out of habit is really the power brake!
(Re)Learning curve, in that case.
My point is that mastery of the difficult (stick shift, DA trigger pull) is not automatic mastery of the less difficult (automatic transmission, SA trigger pull). You still need to be "up to speed" on the specific machine you are driving/shooting. And until you are, its a learning curve.
The general principle is that if you master a complex task, you will be able to perform a simpler task well.
And as a general principle, it is true, but in detail, it's often not. Or rather, not without a learning curve. Now, if you are skilled in the complex task, the learning curve (or relearning curve) for the simple one will be short, but it will be there.
Sticking with driving, for a moment, if you learn on a standard, and drive nothing else, what happens the first time you get into an automatic? (looks around the floorboard in panic..."where's the freakin clutch????" LEARNING CURVE.
Likewise, when you've only driven standards for some time, but know how to drive an automatic, and are just out of practice, you might get a surprise when the clutch pedal you stomp on out of habit is really the power brake!
(Re)Learning curve, in that case.
My point is that mastery of the difficult (stick shift, DA trigger pull) is not automatic mastery of the less difficult (automatic transmission, SA trigger pull). You still need to be "up to speed" on the specific machine you are driving/shooting. And until you are, its a learning curve.
FrankenMauser
New member
Face, meet dashboard.
I did that to my, then 75 year-old, grandmother, once.
As for firearms....
I had a similarly difficult transition after spending a lot of time trying to get proficient with my Ruger P95 (soft, spongy, long trigger pull - particularly in DA), and then moving on to a Buckmark that had been down for a while, waiting on replacement parts.
Muscle memory is a cruel mistress.
Most analogies arent perfect, and you bring up good points. Everything does have a learning curve, and thats just part of life. You do have to actually try and learn, to get through the curve part though.
I guess Im looking at it from a different perspective too, as I shoot (and drive too for that matter) "all" of them regularly, so its not a big deal, or anything new to me.
Learning to shoot DA/DAO, for me has taken the focus or "worry" out of the trigger, and Im no longer caught up worrying about it. I focus on the sights and target, and everything else just flows as I think it. Its all very Zen like.
Im beyond the conscious thought of each individual aspect of things and my subconscious just does what needs done, when it needs to do it, as its thought. No "worry" to interfere with things. Muscle memory isnt something you lose or get locked into, unless of course, its the only muscle memory you have. I shoot 1911's, SIG DA's/DAO's, Glocks, etc, and each has its own muscle memory. If there is any lag there at all, your brain usually works it out very quickly with little effort.
