xrageofangelsx
New member
Handy
That's an easy question... the person who has never fired either.
That's an easy question... the person who has never fired either.
Most "overated" handguns
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By the recent (though not surprising) sad turn of events this thread has taken, this discussion of "most overrated handguns" has become overrated itself. Why people need to constantly piss on other people's guns is beyond me. The anonymity of the internet sure makes people think they've become instant "experts" and want to mouth off like a bunch of loudmouth jerkoffs. Do some of you actually interact with people in public this way? :barf:
xrageofangelsx
New member
Handy
You said "So you're saying that there are well known guns that well-rated solely by a portion of the public that hasn't shot them? Which gun are you thinking of? "
To which you also previously said, "I don't think that has ever been an issue. Of course all these guns are reliable; who's going to overrate an AMT or HiPoint?"
What I was saying in regards to your post was that the person who rates the AMT and HiPoint as reliable are those who have not shot them. I'm not saying the portion of the public has rated them without shooting them. Look, I'm tired of explaining. Let's just forget either of us posted anything, OK?
You said "So you're saying that there are well known guns that well-rated solely by a portion of the public that hasn't shot them? Which gun are you thinking of? "
To which you also previously said, "I don't think that has ever been an issue. Of course all these guns are reliable; who's going to overrate an AMT or HiPoint?"
What I was saying in regards to your post was that the person who rates the AMT and HiPoint as reliable are those who have not shot them. I'm not saying the portion of the public has rated them without shooting them. Look, I'm tired of explaining. Let's just forget either of us posted anything, OK?
I know I should shut up, but:
Xrangklaqwoeri,
A gun can't be OVERrated until it has at least a good rating to begin with. Therefore, all guns that are thought to be OVERrated at least have to be reasonably reliable and nice guns in the first place. It should be no surprise at all that reliable guns appear on the "overrated" list. It isn't "ironic", it's implicit.
Xrangklaqwoeri,
A gun can't be OVERrated until it has at least a good rating to begin with. Therefore, all guns that are thought to be OVERrated at least have to be reasonably reliable and nice guns in the first place. It should be no surprise at all that reliable guns appear on the "overrated" list. It isn't "ironic", it's implicit.
xrageofangelsx
New member
I think my head just exploded.
Elmo Blatch
Inactive
I agree. But the crux of this statement lies with "good rating." Exactly what qualifies a gun as having a good rating?
No-- not hardly. What do you mean by "reasonably" reliable? Do you mean cycling at least one round completely at least once in an entire magazine? I guess a Jennings or an Iver Johnson would then be subsceptible to acquiring an "overrated" label?
Or do you mean a generally high-quality firearm that is known for its cycling reliability, or possesses excellent cycling reliability among its several qualities?
As many gun enthusiasts already know, reasonable reliability doesn't always translate to a gun being considered very high quality in more general terms, and thus, NOT underrated.
Of course, I speak of the 1911 series of pistols: Excellent build quality, and excellent potential to create a top notch sidearm in both reliability, shootability, and accuracy....but still not purely reliable.
Correct. It can be logically assumed that reasonably reliable guns would be on the list. But, from deduction of my statements, it is also apparent that not all guns on the "overrated" list should possess "reasonable reliability" as a trademark to their success or popularity.
I think xrageofangelsx was trying to make a very fine point. But it got obfuscated when others automatically assumed that ALL high-quality handguns would possess "reasonable reliability" as an attribute, thus being vulnerable to being labeled as "overrated."
I agree with the the heart of his statement. I think the more reliable a defensive or utility handgun is proven to be, the less susceptible it should be from getting the over-hyped "overrated" tag.
Then, of course, we would need to define what "proven" means as far as determining a handgun's cycling reliability.
Elmo Blatch,
That's just the point.
If one says "I own a Glock (USP/SIG/Beretta/whatever) and it's the most reliable pistol out there!" what does it mean? That it's gone several thousand rounds without a malfunction or parts breakage?
Newsflash: Any quality pistol will do this, and beyond that point you're picking flypoop out of pepper. Reliability is the baseline standard. "It goes bang every time I pull the trigger" gets no hosannas from me, since that's what I paid for. All my serious pistols do that or they get fixed or sold.
That's just the point.
If one says "I own a Glock (USP/SIG/Beretta/whatever) and it's the most reliable pistol out there!" what does it mean? That it's gone several thousand rounds without a malfunction or parts breakage?
Newsflash: Any quality pistol will do this, and beyond that point you're picking flypoop out of pepper. Reliability is the baseline standard. "It goes bang every time I pull the trigger" gets no hosannas from me, since that's what I paid for. All my serious pistols do that or they get fixed or sold.
warhammer357
Moderator
>>>Warhammer, what SIG carbon steel slide failures are you talking about?
<<<
The original SIG P-226 series pistols had slides that were not solid steel like every other semi auto on the market. They had slides that were made out of stamped sheet metal that had a breech block pinned inside of them.
If you look closely at older Sigs, you can still see the pin.....
When the gun was designed back around 1976, it was desigend to be manufactured inexpensively in volume as a low bid contract military weapon in specific runs. (read up on it in George C. Nonte's "Pistol Guide" if you want.)
The ideology behind its unusual method of manufacture was that submachine gun manufacturers had utilized stamped and welded parts for years, so why not a pistol.
The reality is that there is a huge difference between wear and tear on a subgun with its massive bolt and other parts, and the wear and tear a pistol slide suffers.
In other words, with time, these slides sometimes cracked around the ejection ports, breech block pins broke and so forth.
I have actually seen examples of this. In one case, Sig replaced the entire pistol for a LE friend of mine, when a split appeared in the ejection port area on his P-226. They did right by him.
I have also seen SIG frames that were cracked too, some which had under 10,000 rounds through them. When another friend of mine had a SIG that began cracking on the frame and contacted the importer, he was told the gun was spec'ed to last 10,000 rounds. He pointed out his gun cracked at 9,100 rounds and they argued that the gun would still work with a huge crack in the area by the frame rails.
That was not a great example of good customer service, mind you.
Also, the Sig is pretty uncommon in my neck of the woods to boot.... So if I have seen four frame cracks and a couple of slide failures in a statistically small number, I have to guess that the problem is much greater than most people who go on and on about Glock kabooms and Beretta slides are aware of.
Berettas, for example are common. I have yet to see the first cracked slide or locking block or frame. I have friends in LE who have Beretta duty weapons that have over 20,000 rounds through them with no problems. I have yet to see a Sig that survived that many rounds with the older style slides. The newer solid slides do seem to be an improvement.
The newer SIG pistols have investment cast stainless steel slides that have been chemicaly blackened.
I cannot say for sure, but I would hazard a guess that SIG changed the slides because they did not want to suffer the same indignity that other makers have suffered over these failures and just did an upgrade quietly before the internet rumour mill turned into a tempest.
Sigs, accurate and reliable, but not the most rugged gun on the market. Makes them very overrated in my book, considering that like H*K they go after the image of being the weapon of elite units that fire great volumes of ammunition.
<<<
The original SIG P-226 series pistols had slides that were not solid steel like every other semi auto on the market. They had slides that were made out of stamped sheet metal that had a breech block pinned inside of them.
If you look closely at older Sigs, you can still see the pin.....
When the gun was designed back around 1976, it was desigend to be manufactured inexpensively in volume as a low bid contract military weapon in specific runs. (read up on it in George C. Nonte's "Pistol Guide" if you want.)
The ideology behind its unusual method of manufacture was that submachine gun manufacturers had utilized stamped and welded parts for years, so why not a pistol.
The reality is that there is a huge difference between wear and tear on a subgun with its massive bolt and other parts, and the wear and tear a pistol slide suffers.
In other words, with time, these slides sometimes cracked around the ejection ports, breech block pins broke and so forth.
I have actually seen examples of this. In one case, Sig replaced the entire pistol for a LE friend of mine, when a split appeared in the ejection port area on his P-226. They did right by him.
I have also seen SIG frames that were cracked too, some which had under 10,000 rounds through them. When another friend of mine had a SIG that began cracking on the frame and contacted the importer, he was told the gun was spec'ed to last 10,000 rounds. He pointed out his gun cracked at 9,100 rounds and they argued that the gun would still work with a huge crack in the area by the frame rails.
That was not a great example of good customer service, mind you.
Also, the Sig is pretty uncommon in my neck of the woods to boot.... So if I have seen four frame cracks and a couple of slide failures in a statistically small number, I have to guess that the problem is much greater than most people who go on and on about Glock kabooms and Beretta slides are aware of.
Berettas, for example are common. I have yet to see the first cracked slide or locking block or frame. I have friends in LE who have Beretta duty weapons that have over 20,000 rounds through them with no problems. I have yet to see a Sig that survived that many rounds with the older style slides. The newer solid slides do seem to be an improvement.
The newer SIG pistols have investment cast stainless steel slides that have been chemicaly blackened.
I cannot say for sure, but I would hazard a guess that SIG changed the slides because they did not want to suffer the same indignity that other makers have suffered over these failures and just did an upgrade quietly before the internet rumour mill turned into a tempest.
Sigs, accurate and reliable, but not the most rugged gun on the market. Makes them very overrated in my book, considering that like H*K they go after the image of being the weapon of elite units that fire great volumes of ammunition.
For a different perspective regarding the P226 go to www.tacticalforums.com in the Navy SEALs section and do a search about the P226 pistol. Frogman the moderator is an active duty SEAL and he has posted numerous times about how the P226 (stamp steel and stainless) has held up to heavy and hard use by real life operators. They seem to like the P226's.
At www.sigforum.com it is acknowledged among its members that very early SIG P226 9mm's did have a frame cracking problem. Like so many other things on the internet a few bad experiences shouldn't mean a gun should be condemned. SIGarms fixed the frame problem with the stamp steel SIG's. SIG's with the serial # in the 100 000 range were the ones prone to have this problem. And the main reason SIG went with the stainless slide for the 9mm version is because it makes better economic sense for them. Many SIGForum members actually prefer the stamp steel German proofed SIG's over all others. Not based on collectibility or some other criteria but based on their own personal experience with them. The P228 or military designation M11 is still one of the most highly sought after 9mm's by civilians, LEO's, and military in the market today and it too has a stamp steel slide.
At www.sigforum.com it is acknowledged among its members that very early SIG P226 9mm's did have a frame cracking problem. Like so many other things on the internet a few bad experiences shouldn't mean a gun should be condemned. SIGarms fixed the frame problem with the stamp steel SIG's. SIG's with the serial # in the 100 000 range were the ones prone to have this problem. And the main reason SIG went with the stainless slide for the 9mm version is because it makes better economic sense for them. Many SIGForum members actually prefer the stamp steel German proofed SIG's over all others. Not based on collectibility or some other criteria but based on their own personal experience with them. The P228 or military designation M11 is still one of the most highly sought after 9mm's by civilians, LEO's, and military in the market today and it too has a stamp steel slide.
AngusPodgorney
New member
Most assinine statement yet award!
Nice, really nice. I'm sure if you try real hard you could probably work some ethnicities in there and maybe even bash women or religions....
Ed
Nice, really nice. I'm sure if you try real hard you could probably work some ethnicities in there and maybe even bash women or religions....
Ed
xrageofangelsx
New member
Zing!
Warhammer,
I'm aware of the Sig 220 series history. And of the Berettas. You live in a fantasy world where the only information that makes it in is coincidental with your biases. NEVER heard of a Beretta slide cracking???? Anyway, I was asking for a reference to a broad failure history to this 30 year old design, not tales from the buddy list.
Sigs wear out when the frames crack - the slides are almost never an issue. Several Sigs, including the .45s, are still made this way (220 and new 245). The solid steel slides were a move to increase slide mass, not strength. And the new slides have been known to crack. http://www.thegunzone.com/sigp229-fracture.html
And Sig is not the only company to have used this technique. I have never heard of a cracked P9S slide (9mm or .45), which is nearly identical in construction. And really, a P7's slide is not much different, being a thin forging with a welded on nose.
Stamping of this kind, that is relatively thick and under enough pressure to create surface features like cocking serations, is really just a form hammer forging. The metal is very tough for its thickness. Pound for pound, I doubt the billet Ruger supplies for current 229 slides is as strong or ductile.
Neither the Sig nor Beretta are guns designed to "last forever", but that's mainly due to the fatigue life of their aluminum frame rails. But at least Sig was able to chamber their hallmark weapons in .357 Sig. Beretta seems to have avoided that in the 92, despite the ease of rechambering a 96. Funny, that.
I'm aware of the Sig 220 series history. And of the Berettas. You live in a fantasy world where the only information that makes it in is coincidental with your biases. NEVER heard of a Beretta slide cracking???? Anyway, I was asking for a reference to a broad failure history to this 30 year old design, not tales from the buddy list.
Sigs wear out when the frames crack - the slides are almost never an issue. Several Sigs, including the .45s, are still made this way (220 and new 245). The solid steel slides were a move to increase slide mass, not strength. And the new slides have been known to crack. http://www.thegunzone.com/sigp229-fracture.html
And Sig is not the only company to have used this technique. I have never heard of a cracked P9S slide (9mm or .45), which is nearly identical in construction. And really, a P7's slide is not much different, being a thin forging with a welded on nose.
Stamping of this kind, that is relatively thick and under enough pressure to create surface features like cocking serations, is really just a form hammer forging. The metal is very tough for its thickness. Pound for pound, I doubt the billet Ruger supplies for current 229 slides is as strong or ductile.
Neither the Sig nor Beretta are guns designed to "last forever", but that's mainly due to the fatigue life of their aluminum frame rails. But at least Sig was able to chamber their hallmark weapons in .357 Sig. Beretta seems to have avoided that in the 92, despite the ease of rechambering a 96. Funny, that.
antediluvianist
New member
Posts based on samples of one are valueless.
Tommy Vercetti
New member
more often than not a 1911A1 is nowhere near as reliable as a Glock, Sig or Beretta
warhammer357,
This doesn't speak well for the amount of your experience around Beretta firearms.
Beretta locking blocks sometimes crack. Really, it happens.
Argue against this fact all you want, but it remains true.
Does it happen all the time? No. Does it happen about as often as SIG P-22x frames cracking? Yes, and actually more often, in my experience of working in places with signs that say "We Fix Busted Guns" hanging over the door for the past decade.
Does this mean that I think Beretta 9x's suck? No, I think they're good, durable service pistols that are top shelf in their feed reliablity, but that one should keep an eye on the locking block as it's a potential failure area, just like one should keep an eye on any other potential failure area of a pistol. If it shows signs of cracking, replace it and drive on. It's a lot cheaper than replacing the slide of a 1911 or High Power whose locking lug recesses are getting hogged out due to a poor fit.
This doesn't speak well for the amount of your experience around Beretta firearms.
Beretta locking blocks sometimes crack. Really, it happens.
Argue against this fact all you want, but it remains true.
Does it happen all the time? No. Does it happen about as often as SIG P-22x frames cracking? Yes, and actually more often, in my experience of working in places with signs that say "We Fix Busted Guns" hanging over the door for the past decade.
Does this mean that I think Beretta 9x's suck? No, I think they're good, durable service pistols that are top shelf in their feed reliablity, but that one should keep an eye on the locking block as it's a potential failure area, just like one should keep an eye on any other potential failure area of a pistol. If it shows signs of cracking, replace it and drive on. It's a lot cheaper than replacing the slide of a 1911 or High Power whose locking lug recesses are getting hogged out due to a poor fit.
Herr Walther
New member
The design of the Beretta 92 is much older than that. It was lifted from the Walther designed P.38. Designed in 1937. If you have ever performed a complete strip of both pistols you will see the similarities immediately.
Herr Walther
New member
My appologies. I thought you were speaking of the Beretta 92.
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