Mosin barrel slugging gone horribly wrong

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A 30 cal borebrush will be unhappy when you reverse it.You may end up with another thing stuck in your bore.

Have fun with what you are doing.I do wish you the best of luck.

Maybe your results will be good.

But,if you enjoy accuracy,I suspect it will be a good time to check into a replacement barrel.I suspect savage will sell one at a reasonable price.The nut system of headspacing should make it do-able without your gunsmith charging too much.Good as new!!
 
If he has not gotten the wood and lead out of his rifle in 2 1/2 years, I doubt he will get it out.
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If you read the posts, you'll realize it's not the same gun, nor the same poster, which has already been explained once
 
New Barrel... Really... Please Explain your reasoning

HiBC…

Thank you for the well wishes.

However… Respectfully… How is the barrel going to be damaged? This makes no logical sense to me. You are proposing that the softer aluminum will damage the barrel. How is this logical? Below is a chart of the Brinell hardness of the materials involved. There is no pounding that is taking place. Merely a shaft of aluminum spinning at slow drill speeds cutting and breaking down the oak wood dowel. The hardness of the aluminum is far softer than even the copper jacketed ammo that most people shoot in their rifles. It is also LESS THAN ¼ the Brinell hardness of the tempered heat treated barrel. The aluminum rods I have modified are not spinning at thousands of RPMs and they are not generating enough heat to change the temper of the stainless steel barrel.

Please consider the very high pressures of the 308 Winchester round and the obturation of a traditional copper jacketed bullet sufficient enough to swage the bullet into the rifling. Logically, how is a “garage gunsmith” (I am using the term gunsmith VERY VERY loosely) with a weak piece of aluminum applying anywhere near the force of a copper jacketed bullet.

It seems to me “logically” that I am perhaps wearing the barrel on an even par with shooting a few boxes of ammo in a particularly fun weekend at the range. If your experience shows that I am wrong please explain your reasoning. Thank you.

Oak Wood – Brinell hardness 3.7
6061 Aluminum Rod – Brinell Hardness 95
Copper Jacket Alloy (on most bullets) – Brinell Hardness 100-130
4140 Steel (Possible Rifle Barrel Steel) – Brinell Hardness 197 -- UNTEMPERED
4150 Steel (Possible Rifle Barrel Steel) – Brinell hardness 197 – UNTEMPERED
4140 Steel (Possible Rifle Barrel Steel) – Brinell Hardness 444 – Tempered @ 600 Degrees
 
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I knew a guy that had that problem. He actually made a drill out of hardened brass rod. He cut four straight flutes with a needle file then hardened it and put cutting edges on it. You wouldn't think it would work, but that crafty old hillbilly made it work. He was a tool and die man so I figure he knew all about metals.
 
Progress Update

I got impatient with it and became bored after making my way 6 inches into the barrel. All in all I was at it slowly drilling and resharpening my bits for about 1 hour. It is too tedious to do straight through so I will do some more later on today... so on an so forth... until I get-r-dun.
 
You can't "flush" it out when the bore is plugged with debris
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Yes, actually, you can. I guess in an open-ended container, it would be considered flushing, while in a container closed on one end, the better term would be rinsing.
Fill the barrel with warm water, then pour it out. You Repeat it 2 or 3 times, then spray WD-40 or some other form of organic water displacer, dump it once, refill and let it sit. The first water "rinse" removes about 90% of the lead acetate/acetic acid from the barrel. The next rinse removes about 90% of what's left behind (about 9%). The third rinse removes 90% of the 1% left over, and so forth.

Before the dangers of lead were completely understood, wines were often sweetened by pouring them up in bottles with lead pellets in them. The acetic acid in the wines (at considerably lower concentrations than vinegar) reacts to form lead acetate, also known archaically as "sugar of lead", resulting in a sweetened (and HORRIDLY toxic) wine.

BTW, vinegar is a 4%-5% solution of acetic acid, so I seriously doubt it will remove 17 grains of lead with each application.
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SCORCH, I calculated the amount of lead converted to lead acetate using very conservative assumptions to come up with the numbers I posted. Would you like me to walk you through them? Would you understand them if I did?

I'm not sure how much time my decriers have spent in a chemistry lab, but I've been in the field going on 30 years. I AM aware, perhaps more so than most, that acids attack most metals. And while I WOULD NOT USE STRONG ACIDS, like muriatic (HCl) to try this, I WOULD BE willing to bet that the acetic acid will preferentially react with lead (AND cellulose in the dowel, for that matter) rather than with high-carbon steel. Will SOME iron be removed? Yes, probably, but far far less than the amounts of lead and cellulose removed.

Sorry if I made the gunsmiths unhappy. I didn't know one was required to have a Bachelor's degree in chemistry to get out of gunsmithing school. I DO know that I wouldn't presume to tell a gunsmith how to mill a receiver nor how to rebarrel an action. I'd hoped for the same consideration in return.

Never try to educate someone who resists knowledge at all costs.
But what do I know?
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You're right, Scorch. I probably shouldn't have bothered.
 
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Kosh75287 said:
SCORCH, I calculated the amount of lead converted to lead acetate using very conservative assumptions to come up with the numbers I posted. Would you like me to walk you through them? Would you understand them if I did?
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This is not the recommended method for making friends here.....



And, if you think you have all of the answers, why are you asking for advice? :rolleyes:
 
I didn't read the whole thing but if wood is stuck in one end why not take a cleaning rod and adapt a wood screw to it permanently and try to screw it into the wood as one would pull a muzzelloader bullet. Of course the thought of going the other way and screwing into that egg sinkers hole sounds good to.
 
LOL @ BLINdstitch's "slug out, not a slug-out" comment.


Throttle back, FRANKENMAUSER, both of my questions to Scorch were reasonable and appropriate. I will happily show him, or anyone else how I arrived at my results. My questioning his capacity to understand it arises from his immediate dismissal of my suggestion, without even asking how I might have arrived at them. It suggests to me an unwillingness to even CONSIDER other approaches to the problem, which often leads down troubled paths.

I DON'T know everything, sir, and I have never made such a claim. I DO know something of chemistry, though, probably as much as SCORCH knows of gunsmithing. It is why I OFFERED THE SUGGESTION that vinegar MIGHT be a solution (pun not intended). for dislodging the stuck dowel and slug. I don't recall DEMANDING or GUARANTEEING the use of vinegar to dissolve the bullet.

And GUNSMITHS wonder why customers often become impatient with them...
 
My questioning his capacity to understand it arises from his immediate dismissal of my suggestion, without even asking how I might have arrived at them. It suggests to me an unwillingness to even CONSIDER other approaches to the problem, which often leads down troubled paths.
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Don't confuse the dismissal with not understanding

It's just a bad idea to add liquid when trying to drill out the wood, and dissolving the lead isn't going to happen in a timely manner, no matter how many calculations you performed

Fill the barrel with warm water, then pour it out. You Repeat it 2 or 3 times, then spray WD-40 or some other form of organic water displacer, dump it once, refill and let it sit. The first water "rinse" removes about 90% of the lead acetate/acetic acid from the barrel. The next rinse removes about 90% of what's left behind (about 9%). The third rinse removes 90% of the 1% left over, and so forth.
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All you'd accomplish is saturating the wood, causing it to swell tighter in the bore, trapping the moisture and the lead.
 
My response to both our OP with his aluminum drill,and the advocate of vinegar in the bore.
You have formed mental solutions to the problem at hand.And,as reasonable human nature allows,a touch of ego/pride goes along with it.

I studied Vocational Machine Shop 3 hrs a day in High school.Then,in 1974 I got a job as gopher in the R+D Model shop of a consumer product company.That developed into a career as a R+D machinist /Modelmaker/moldmaker.Later,in a major industrial control company,I worked in their low volume dept for a while before being offered a position in Quality.Throughout this time I have been a firearms enthusiast and amateur gunsmith.
When I get an idea in my head about a rifle or handgun,I build it.

I am not the one who has a mess stuck in his barrel.And I have successfully slugged barrels.

OP,you will note I offered you the alternative of working through an aluminum arrow shaft as a sleeve around a drill.
Tell me,OP,why do knowledgable shooters avoid using aluminum cleaning rods?Because aluminum is a grit magnet.It embeds in the surface of the aluminum and serves as a cutter tooth.It is the principle of the lap.If you study the pages of premium barrel makers you will learn one function of the final lap is to align the lay of the tool finish in the direction of the bullet travel.Lines perpendicular to the path of the bullet function as file teeth on the bullet.
These barrelmakers are leary of the damage well intentioned shooters do with their cleaning equiptment,including bore brushes.
Aside from the embedded grit inherently in mill finish aluminum,only very bright shiny aluminum is the soft aluminum you are thinking of.That grey looking mill finish on the outside of the rod is aluminum oxide.Grinding wheels and lapping compound are made of aluminum oxide.It cuts steel quite well.Don't believe me?Take a bar of mill finish aluminum rod,go to your gun safe.Pull out your prettiest blued rifle or shotgun and rub that aluminum like a file on the barrel.Tell me how that soft aluminum protected your barrel.Send pictures.

I also ,as a moldmaker,was sent to understudy a Master Die Finisher.He was working on coining dies for the Mint when I arrived.I do know something about high finishes on steel.I know how to create them.I have created them.I know what destroys them.
OP,I concede I cannot be certain whether your outcome will be satisfactory.I am doubtful.I think the experience you are gaining is great.It may work!!But I'm also realistic,and,IMO,an easy rebarrel is sunshine,because all is not lost.

To the vinegar,I am not a chemist.One thing decades of working with highly finished steel will provide is simple observtions of what happens.Standing outside in the rain could result in getting wet.Hitting my thumb with a hammer will hurt.Us dumb shop guys write that down in the book of experience.I do not need a degree in meteorology or a Doctor of Medicine to know these things.
I have used cider vinegar to rust brown muzzle loaders.I have used proprietary solutions,mildly acid,to rust blue in a tank of boiling water.It is remarkable how fast it works.

I have also seen a barrel develop surface rust in seconds as I watched for simply degreasing it with laquer thinner.
The wood is absorbent.It will simultaneously absorb and swell. Immediate removal is unlikely.That vinegar/plug may remain for hours or days.And so here is what I would like for you to do,mr chemist.Go get your favorite rifle or shotgun out.Blued carbon steel.If you have a Parker side by side,it would be ideal.OK,a Colt Python will do.
Put a wad of paper,or a rag,or wood shavings,or a cigar butt soaked in vinegar in the bore.Then wipe down the outside of the gun with a vinegar soaked rag.Put it in a gun case,and leave it a week.Then come back and be sure to push the plug out of the bore.Let me know what your academic observation is.
Mr Scorch has spent some time around gun steel,and his observations agree with mine.
But you folks just do whatever makes you happy.I'll pull up a stool with some popcorn.And I'll keep my salty fingers off the guns.
Pardon me for offering my best to your request for help.My mistake.
Once again,I am not the one with a slug and splintered dowels jammed up in my bore.How could I know anything?
 
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My, we are getting off track here, aren't we? Kosh, I'm sorry if I rankled you with my response. But assuming someone is uneducated and that you know more than they do is dangerous. Yes, I am a gunsmith by trade now, but I have several degrees, a BS in Biolgy (where i took chemistry up to and including biochem and endocrinology), as well as a masters in business. I spent 20 years in Management, primarily in manufacturing industries in Operations. I can tell you for a certainty that metallic lead is highly insoluble in just about any acid, as well as aqueous solutions. If this were not true, they would not use lead to line acid storage tanks. I can also tell you numerous amusing anecdotes about engineers who "calculated" things that were just not so. And now, I can tell a story of a presumptuous chem student that is trying to dissolve lead with vinegar, when just about any farm boy down South can tell you that lead is fairly insoluble because they can go dig up lead bullets fired 150 years ago during the Civil War. As a gunsmith, I can tell you that you can spend hundreds of dollars and hours trying to fix the problem you created, or just take the simplest answer and replace the $150 rifle. But since you know the answers already, you will just go ahead like you have been doing. Have fun.
 
Kosh, I must admit that I intentionally took as little Chemistry as possible in College. Only a few courses in it were required for my degree program. The Chemistry that most interested me was the Chemist behind the bar at happy hour. Having said that, get you some lead sinkers, drop them in a jug of vinegar and see how long they last.;)

If you would round yourself up a good steel rod just slightly under bore size, put the barreled action in a proper vise. Then get yourself a 2 1/2 pound hammer. Hit the rod very solidly. By that, I mean knock the hades out of it. Don't tap on it or play around with it. Hit it hard. The lead will come out of the bore the way it went in. It will push the wood out with it. You must have a very hard, very rigid steel rod. It must fit the barrel reasonably tightly. If it is loose, the steel rod flexing dampens most of the impact force.
 
Response to HiBC

Sir, I can assure you that there was no ego in my requesting information earlier. I presented my rationale respectfully with explanations and asked for a logical rebuttal. You gave me exactly that!

I am very appreciative of the explanation as I was in earnest when I asked for it. It is reasonable, logical and well thought out. I have learned something about guns today and I am grateful for it!!! Thank you.

With that said I am already 1/3 of the way through my barrel/wood dowel problem and there is no turning back. I am in agreement with your likely assessment of reduced accuracy. However, being that this was my FIRST hunting style rifle I have to admit that I did purchase it as a "learner" rifle. Most of my firearm experience is with pistols. I reload and cast for a number of calibers and have slugged many bores (with oak dowels no less). Fear not!!! I shall never slug a bore with an oak dowel again!!!

My goal was to learn the basics of long guns and reloading for them. That includes how to cast lead bullets for them. I purchased an entry level Savage Axis 308 for the purpose of learning about 1 year ago.

Before I purchase another barrel I will likely try to assess the accuracy for my poor skills and decide whether to try to tailor loads specifically for this rifle or just purchase another barrel. Thanks again for the learning info and for being willing to share your knowledge!
 
Synthesis of Lead (II) Acetate


In this method, lead metal, vinegar, and aqueous hydrogen peroxide are combined. These are all OTC chemicals and easily obtained.

Combine equal volumes of 3% hydrogen peroxide, vinegar (@ 5% acetic acid) in a 250 mL erlenmeyer flask with magnetic stirring bar.

Heat until near boiling. Remove from heat. Slowly add lead metal. The mixture may bubble vigorously, for as long as 5-10 minutes.

Hydrogen peroxide acts as an oxidizer in acidic (acetic acid) conditions, oxidizing the metallic lead to lead oxide, rendering the lead susceptible to attack by vinegar (acetic acid), forming lead (II) acetate.

Pb (S) + HOOH (aq) → PbO (aq) + HOH (l)
PbO (aq) + 2 C2H4O2(aq) → Pb(CH3CO2)2 (aq) + HOH

Okay, not the most scholarly synthetic write-up I've ever seen, but certainly adequate. I will admit to having forgotten about needing peroxide as an oxidizer, but I WILL NOT concede that this method is totally without merit.

PRESUMPTUOUS, Scorch?? What exactly makes you think I'm still a student? Which of us is being presumptuous? That thing about the pot calling the kettle black seems to fit, here.

By the way, I'll see your "chemistry up to and including biochem and endocrinology" and raise you my Physical Chemistry I (Thermodynamics) and II (Quantum Mechanics), Inorganic Chemistry, Physical Inorganic Chemistry, Metabolism & Regulation, Advanced Biochemistry and Advanced Synthetic Methods (Organic AND Inorganic).

Yes, I am a gunsmith by trade now, but I have several degrees, a BS in Biolgy
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When they conferred your Bachelor's degree, did they forget to check that you knew how to spell "biology", because THAT part of your education appears to have evaded you.

Okay, I'm done.
 
I tried to hint earlier, but you seem to have missed the message...

When they conferred your Bachelor's degree, did they forget to check that you knew how to spell "biology", because THAT part of your education appears to have evaded you.
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Personal attacks are against forum rules.

But, mostly, they just irritate everyone that came here hoping to help, or get help.
 
Yeah, yeah, kush, you win. Whatever. Sorry my typing on my phone is not up to snuff. Thermodynamics was a 100 level course, physical chemistry was a 200 level course, quantum mechanics was a 400 level course, inorganic chem was a 300 level course, metabolism and regulation was a 400 level course, etc, etc. Done anything lately?

Maybe I was wrong about you still being a student. I am still a student, so whatever. When we cease learning, we start dying. And seriously, forgetting the oxidizer? Great methodology. Great chemistry. 30 years, huh? Meh.

Like I said, you win. That makes you the winner. Yay. You still have a trashed rifle.
 
Leadloader

Well done!!Now it is water under the bridge.
All of us.myself included,at times go through a process of learning.

The first stage is unconscious incompetence,screwing up without knowing you are screwing up.It is therefore unlikely we know the why and how of screwing up.We mat just notice something is not working.That is an excellent clue to recognize HMMMMPerhaps....

The next stage is conscious incompetence.Perhaps through poor execution of new skills,or regression to familiar process,we screw up and say"Dang,I did that again!!I have to remember!!Hold my lips right!!"

Conscious competence?Dang!!I'm focused on holding my lips right!!It Worked!!Whoopee!

Unc
onscious competence:Like shifting gears and operating a clutch after driving a 4 speed ten years.

We all do it

Now,one of my writings.

Prerequisite disillusionment,is illusion.The discomfort of disillusionment is the birth pang of Truth.

Us shop guys often find elegant solutions not by forcing them,,but by having a cup of coffee,and clearing the mind.Relax.Close your eyes.Simply allow the solution to paint itself in your mind.Be patient.Sleep on it if necessary.

But grabbing the big hammer,or applying more white knuckles,or doing whatever is NOT WORKING harder...breaks taps,for example.

Well,one day I was up in WYO,paddling my Wenonah C-1 Whitewater canoe down the North Platte.Afternoons,warm air will flow up a river.Wind was blowing so hard I was cavitating my paddle,pulling downsream.I noticed a tree on the bank was not going anywhere.I said Hmmmm.I got off the river,sat under the tree and had a beer.I was making the same progress with a far more leisurely effort.That is an example of listening for an elegant solution.
 
Hey,Kosh,but,yeah,you did leave out the peroxide,a more grievous error than a typo ,yes?Speck in Scorch's eye,log in yours?
And yeah,hey KoshDid you try dropping lead sinkers in a bottle if vinegar?Try a lead bullet.Measure it first.Check every day as often as you like.Can we agree on a dimensional change of .2 mm,or just under .008 in?

OK.Now the whole time we are waiting on the lead to dissolve,you have to keep your most prized and beautiful blue steel gun wraped in a vinegar wet towel.You can let the towel slowly dry,as the still stuck wood plug would.

I have worked with brilliant engineers(just ask them,they will tell you) that,for example,insisted on all of the 6-32 tapped holes in the aluminum plates be blind,bottom tapped holes.When I asked why,the reply was he did not want confusing left handed threads exposed on the back of the plate.

I do not care your education,IQ,or what flavor latte you like.Putting vinegar in the bore of this rifle is a really bad idea.Now,go put a vinegar patch in the bore of one of your own guns and leave it a few days.
 
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