Moral Obligation to Take Action

[steaknuggets]

My first responsibility is to my family. If I get locked away in prison because of something I did then I would be shirking my duties to them. If I have to sell the house to pay my attorney I have let my family down. Heroes are great in movies, life isn't a movie.

+1

CCW's are NOT LEO's and can be criminally prosecuted for their so called "benevolent" actions. Unfortunately that's the way the laws are written and I'm not about to lose my family or house playing hero in a liquor store robbery. Call me what you want, but the risk isn't worth the reward.

 

[BikerRN]

I am an LEO, but off duty I will do no more than what a responsible CCW should do. In short, I will be a good witness and summon on duty LEO's as long as the criminal actor isn't threatening me or mine.

 

[steaknuggets]

I am an LEO, but off duty I will do no more than what a responsible CCW should do. In short, I will be a good witness and summon on duty LEO's as long as the criminal actor isn't threatening me or mine.

I agree with being a good Samaritan and helping LEO's apprehend and prosecute the suspect from a witness standpoint.

 

[David Armstrong]

To whoever said that most robberies end without gunfire is wrong, ...

OK, let's play. Just what percentage of robberies end with gunfire? You've made a claim that is contradicted by every legitimate source I'm aware of, so perhaps you know something all those researchers don't. I doubt it, but I'll gladly give you the chance.

....criminals don't have rights.

Huh??? Benny, do you ever take a minute to check these things, or do you just say whatever pops into your head. Criminals do have rights, quite a few of them, in fact.

Here we go again with shooting innocent bystanders, I don't know about you but I'm a good enough shot that i'm confident I can neutralize a threat.

Lots of folks have had that same thought, and found out that it wasn't quite that easy.

Imagine if that was your mother behind the counter with some punk pointing a gun in her face. Now you get my point..

Benny, if it is my mother please just move on back and munch on some potato chips until the BG is done, It sounds like you are way to eager to turn a simple robbery into a bloodbath.

 

[David Armstrong]

I'm still shaking my head in utter disbelief that anyone who works behind a badge would simply walk past a fellow citizen in imminent danger of being seriously hurt or killed and do nothing simply because they're "off-duty" and then disparage anyone who believe helping out is the moral and proper thing to do.

And other among us are in equal disbelief that someone would think it moral and proper to INCREASE the danger level of someone else when there is no need to do so.

 

[rampage841512]

Would you feel guilty if you didn't take action? If you would, you certainly think you had a moral obligation. If not, you don't feel you do.

I've always felt it was morally right to resist evil if you have the ability to do so successfully.

 

[TexasSeaRay]

And other among us are in equal disbelief that someone would think it moral and proper to INCREASE the danger level of someone else when there is no need to do so.

And THAT attitude is why respect for law enforcement continues to diminish.

The minute you walk into a store and there is a robbery taking place, the threat level just escalated. For you, for the clerk, for anyone else that happens in the store.

I've also learned over the years to not entirely trust all crime statistics that come solely from DoJ or law enforcement. Worse the statistics, worse the public perception, worse the chances of a chief, or AG keeping their job. We had that happen right here in Dallas.

Turned out the Dallas PD hadn't been reporting crimes and instances correctly.

My cousin is a senior homicide detective with the Fort Worth PD. Tells us he's been seeing more "rob and shoot" scenarios in the past five years than in the previous twenty years he's been on the job.

The "moral obligation" to help can take forms other than "bustin' a cap" on the robber. But for a cop to state that he'd do absolutely nothing while off-duty because of "departmental/agency regulations" is just crap. There is a CRIME IN PROGRESS and a citizen is in IMMINENT DANGER.

Although. . . I suppose the cops who feel like that could just merrily call out to the poor clerk who's looking at Tec-9 or shotgun in his face and say, "No worries, pal, statistics say. . . ."

Jeff

 

[David Armstrong]

And THAT attitude is why respect for law enforcement continues to diminish.

Sigh. Does anyone think it is important to verify something before they make a claim about it? Respect for law enforcement has remained fairly standard over the last decade, not diminished.

The minute you walk into a store and there is a robbery taking place, the threat level just escalated. For you, for the clerk, for anyone else that happens in the store.

Yes, the threat level has probably gone up. But that doesn't mean the danger level has to go up.

I've also learned over the years to not entirely trust all crime statistics that come solely from DoJ or law enforcement.

Good . Any time you have a better source, I'm sure we'd like to see the information. I personally prefer to mix DoJ data with independent researchers material, where available.

My cousin is a senior homicide detective with the Fort Worth PD. Tells us he's been seeing more "rob and shoot" scenarios in the past five years than in the previous twenty years he's been on the job.

So, do you believe him or not? You either trust crime statistics from LE or you don't. Let's make up our mind.

But for a cop to state that he'd do absolutely nothing while off-duty because of "departmental/agency regulations" is just crap.

Good. Now find someplace where a cop has said that and we cann all get on to him. But I don't think that has been said here.

There is a CRIME IN PROGRESS and a citizen is in IMMINENT DANGER.

Yes, which is why you should probably try to avoid making the situation even more dangerous.

 

[benny27]

David Armstrong, Yeah, let's just sit back and munch on some potato chips while some crack head nut robs the store at gun point great idea!..
Of course if I'm not packing I'm not going to throw a can of soup at the guy, but If I am I'm going to intervene. I don't want to go to sleep that night after watching some innocent employee get blown away knowing I could have done something, but hey it's your call. Maybe you should just call the police and let them deal with it, but don't forget to tell them to bring the yellow tape and a body bag in case the nut snaps, because he didn't get the money he wanted or the clerk tried to call for help. Like you said though it will probably end peaceful. Oh yeah, you're right criminals do have rights they have a right to shut up, and wait on their state appointed lawyer who will never get them off..

 

[TexasSeaRay]

So, do you believe him or not? You either trust crime statistics from LE or you don't. Let's make up our mind.
Quote:
But for a cop to state that he'd do absolutely nothing while off-duty because of "departmental/agency regulations" is just crap.
Good. Now find someplace where a cop has said that and we cann all get on to him. But I don't think that has been said here.
Quote:
There is a CRIME IN PROGRESS and a citizen is in IMMINENT DANGER.
Yes, which is why you should probably try to avoid making the situation even more dangerous.

Well, I believe what he sees same as I believe what I saw when I was behind a badge. Unfortunately, I wasn't assisgned in just one area of the country and kept getting moved around. Saw lots of different things in lots of different cities which might've had something to do with how my experience helped form an informed opinion . . .

And, we had a poster here who said he was LE and that his agency strictly forbid them getting involved in such situation while off-duty. He even went so far as to say he'd help a fellow cop, but not a fellow citizen.

Now, explain to me how that helps the respect factor--especially when that was presented as "typical?"

Respect for LE enforcement was declining back when I was in it. We got regular updates from DoJ (since we were a DoJ agency) on both geographic specific research/polling/opinion-polling as well as demographically specific.

Two key incidents that went national started the tide--Ruby Ridge and Waco.
Used to be a time when local police departments rarely had to advertise for police officers. Now even semi-large departments are not only having to advertise, but recruit nationally and offer incentives and bonuses.

Worse yet, many departments are having to lower their standards drastically in order to field a halfway full/decent academy class. The Dallas PD's idiot chief recently announced that he is proposing to re-write the disqualifying section on illegal drug-use as it pertains to DPD candidates. Instead of two admitted instances, uses or illegal varieties of drugs used, he is pushing to raise it to FIVE.

That just gives me and so many others a warm fuzzy all over.

And finally, there is a reason firemen are generally better regarded than cops these days. If you're in a burning house, a fireman is gonna do what he has to do and all that he can do to get you out of harm's way.

Why the hell wont' a cop?

Can't have it both ways. So many of today's new gen cops tell us about all this supposed damn "incident" and situational" and "tactical" training they've had that makes them SO much more qualified to carry a firearm than your average dumbass civilian. . .

And yet, when that specific "training" is needed, you and others are saying, "well, now, let's THINK about this for a minute."

Sorry. You stated at one time that you were ex-military and ex-law enforcement. So am I. But I was trained in both that if you see bad guy pointing gun at good guy, you shoot bad guy. You didn't stand around and throw out statistics at the victim-in-progress that his chances are looking fairly good, based on statistics, that he won't get shot . . . this time.

Who knows? Maybe that's the policy that's coming. . .

Jeff

 

[Vitamin G]

Just in terms of my personal choice, I've made the decision to intervene up until the day I put a ring on some woman's finger. At that point, I have a much more specific family to worry about, rather than just the human family.

 

[BikerRN]

And, we had a poster here who said he was LE and that his agency strictly forbid them getting involved in such situation while off-duty. He even went so far as to say he'd help a fellow cop, but not a fellow citizen.

I am the poster you are referring to TSR.

I will act as a good CCW Holder should act in a situation. Yes, I am an LEO, but Policy trumps your self heroics and chest thumping. I will call the ON DUTY LEO's to handle whatever may arise. The only exception to that is if a UNIFORMED or otherwise IDENTIFIABLE LEO is in need of help. The reason I say that is, it's easier to tell who all the players are.

You are not worth my risking prison, bancruptcy or death for pal, get over it. Off Duty my guns are to protect me and my loved ones, nothing more, nothing less. If you are retired, as you claim, I suggest you find a hobby because you seem to have a lot of time to "relive" your glory years.

Do you think that if you shoot a Bad Guy that you will get a Medal and the Key to the City? Let me assure you, you most definately will not. You will be investigated like you've never been investigated before. The people making the decisions on if you were right or wrong will have days, weeks, even months or years to reach a conclusion that you had mere seconds to reach.

Now lets take a look at the "so called" Bad Guy for a moment. Once you shot him he went from being a Bad Guy to a "misguided but hard working young man" that was trying to turn his life around. He had recently gotten his GED and had been gainfully employed for four months, longest time in his life. He was supporting a child and the child's Mother with his meager earnings.

OK, I'm done with this post because obviously some people are too dense to "get it" or understand how things are in today's society and prefer to live in their own small pond where they are a big frog.

Biker

 

[benny27]

you are not worth my risking prison, bankruptcy or death for pal, get over it., WOW, those sound like the ethics of a great cop..
So your saying if someone other than your family is in desperate need of help and your off duty their SOL, well that's just fantastic.

 

[Boris Bush]

Moral obligation to take action

Last year at VA tech a "victim" told his story through his mother. He told how he played dead as the gunman dropped the mags from his empty weapons and how the empty mags fell right next to his face.. An obvious time to fight back, yet the sheeple, raised from birth, would rather play dead to preserve his own life than fight back and save untold numbers of people.

For the most part police are not here to protect us. They take pictures, write reports, take names and investigate. I would find it hard to live the rest of my life knowing I could have did something and did not.

FWIW: I have been shot at, and have fired back. More than once and running to the fight and finishing strong makes it possible for me to sit here for a while every now and then.....

 

[The Tourist]

As most of you know, I enjoy a good debate. The problem with most discussions is that I can tell you what I might do, I can surmise how I might feel, and I could probably document texts where I might legally act.

Obviously, I cannot draw on a whole wealth of experience.

I have never been a soldier. I have never fought for money as a mercenary. I admit to spending way too much time in saloons. My combat training has all been second hand.

For example, a buddy of mine might be a member of a dojo, so he instructs me. I might learn blade skills from a guy who did some serious time. (I did read the book "Bloody Iron" once.) A former police sniper taught me skills with scoped rifles. I can reload. I can sharpen. But that's pretty much it.

The actual practice of drawing sights on a breathing person is simply foreign to me. Even if confronted I'd rather carve a felon "a little bit" than shoot him a whole lot.

I can defend my wife, friends and pets, but deep inside I know that I'll be spending quite some time with a cognitive guy and probably fight PTSD.

So, where does that leave me here at TFL? Oh, I like pistols, I love to plink and shoot beer cans. I still think IPSC would be fun.

But when could I feel that the deliberate act of ending life would satisfy all of my moral, spiritual, legal and justifiable thresholds so that I could come to you honestly and say I had an "obligation"?

I thought it over. Heck, a townie is just a stupid, seven toed lout. Ending his life might be good for the gene pool, but simply shaking a shiny object at him usually breaks his attention span.

A teenage mugger, perhaps. No, in my bones I really believe most are misguided. He probably simply needs a priest or a minister. He'll be seeing one in jail after I smash out every tooth in his head.

A 'banger? Well, that's a call on the line, like a sloppy John McEnroe lob. The guy would have to be a real, credible deadly threat. And truth be told, I know of no event at any level in my area where a gang-banger deliberately attacked a biker. Now granted, would I be told of such outcomes...?

So, what person, at what event, could pose such an immediate and potentially lethal circumstance to my family and my person that I could be morally calm and justified as I pressed down for the last time one four crisp ounces of trigger?

I think it would be a klansman marching in my neighborhood. I'd keep the hood for a trophy.

Honestly, guys, it would take a monumental amount of motivation for me to end a life. I don't think I can do it, even for the greater good.

 

[BikerRN]

Honestly, guys, it would take a monumental amount of motivation for me to end a life. I don't think I can do it, even for the greater good.

You sir are someone that I would like to share a beer with. Your honesty is refreshing. I commend you.

 

[The Tourist]

You sir are someone that I would like to share a beer with. Your honesty is refreshing. I commend you.

Oh, I wish it came from a place of bravery and concern.

I believe you reach an age when every nuance and exaggeration you tell just seems too heavy to carry.

We speak here of "what if." And when I thought about it, there was always some niggling aspect that told me, "Naw, you couldn't even do it then."

 

[David Armstrong]

David Armstrong, Yeah, let's just sit back and munch on some potato chips while some crack head nut robs the store at gun point great idea!..

Nobody has suggested that. In fact, that you would get that from this discussion is indicative of how little you understand about this kind of stuff.

I don't want to go to sleep that night after watching some innocent employee get blown away knowing I could have done something, but hey it's your call.

Why do you assume that your intervention would make things better and not make them worse?

Maybe you should just call the police and let them deal with it, but don't forget to tell them to bring the yellow tape and a body bag in case the nut snaps, because he didn't get the money he wanted or the clerk tried to call for help.

Try to stay in the real world, benny. I’ll put my “probably” up against your “in case” any time.
Try to stay in the real world, benny. I’ll put my “probably” up against your “in case” any time.

Oh yeah, you're right criminals do have rights they have a right to shut up, and wait on their state appointed lawyer who will never get them off..

Once again your lack of understanding is glaringly apparent.

 

[David Armstrong]

Well, I believe what he sees same as I believe what I saw when I was behind a badge.

Then you pretty much should believe the data that comes from other officers, I would think. And all thta data shows getting killed in a robbery is extremely rare.

And, we had a poster here who said he was LE and that his agency strictly forbid them getting involved in such situation while off-duty.

His isn’t the only one, and rightfully so. Also it isn't anything new, I might point out. And there is a pretty good reason for that. The chances of making the situation much worse are far greater than that it will help.

Now, explain to me how that helps the respect factor--especially when that was presented as "typical?"

Nothing to explain, IMO. You made a statement that was incorrect according to all available data, and got called on it.

Respect for LE enforcement was declining back when I was in it.

Maybe that was because of the way things were done back then? Rushing in, making things worse, not trying to minimize damage, etc. We’ve learned a lot since then, and in spite of your litany, respect for LE is fairly high, and has remained so for at least the last decade. As for recruitment, that is far more a matter of competition for people than it is a matter of respect.

And finally, there is a reason firemen are generally better regarded than cops these days.

Hate to break it to you, but firemen have been regarded higher than LE for a long time, it’s nothing new.

And yet, when that specific "training" is needed, you and others are saying, "well, now, let's THINK about this for a minute."

Gosh, why does thinking about how to reduce the chance of danger to everyone get you so bothered?

But I was trained in both that if you see bad guy pointing gun at good guy, you shoot bad guy.

I would suggest that is fairly poor training. I’ve been doing this since the early 1970s, and never heard of such a thing. You shoot the BG if you must, not because you can.

You didn't stand around and throw out statistics at the victim-in-progress that his chances are looking fairly good, based on statistics, that he won't get shot . . . this time.

Nobody has suggested that should be done, so why try to say that it does? Like it or not (and a lot of old-time cops don’t like it) the new breed of officers are pretty darned good at what they are doing, and they’ve presided over a reduction in crime that is simply outstanding.

 

[benny27]

David Armstrong, you said that in a previous post "Benny, if it is my mother please just move back and munch on some potato chips until the BG is gone".