Moral Obligation to Take Action

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Don Lu, you're just like some of the others assuming the criminal won't act. If you happen to be carrying why would you not intervene. Obviously there are different factors involved in your decision, but if the guy is crazy enough to commit armed robbery don't you think he has the potential of killing a person. If there's one thing a armed robber hates it's a witness. They kill people all the time I read about them almost every day, and I think to myself if only someone would have intervened.
 
I feel as though I have to weigh the potential disasterous consequences and its impact on my family.
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We can discuss potential situations until we are all blue in the face (is it the good guy who is defending himself and we are trying to draw down on them? is it undercover law enforcement? blah blah blah), but realistically, most situations we would ever have the chance to come across, should be easy to determine who is the victim. And morally speaking, I don't think that any question of legalities or civil lawsuits would even enter my mind if i stepped in to assist a person in distress.
I am a human being, and I will act like one. If that means I get sued in civil court, so be it. I can't nor am I able to worry about that when lives are on the line.
My humanity would probably move me to step in even if I was unarmed and loss of my life was imminent for stepping in. Thats just how I was made.
 
If you happen to be carrying why would you not intervene.
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I think I listed some good reason...here they go again..
quickie marts 157.89 in the register is not worth the possibility of me starting a shootout, taking a life, losing all my money in civil court, possibly ending up in jail, my daughter not having a father, my wife...ehh you get the point.
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My duty is to me and my loved ones...not to make sure that before its over, bullets are gonna fly.
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if he doesnt shoot...eveyone gets to go home.
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what is all this fear of liability and civil court nonsense, who's gonna sue you the punk's gangmember buddies. When someone commits armed robbery he has no rights, he is a deadly threat if anything you would be commended for taking action trust me.
 
They kill people all the time I read about them almost every day
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where the heck do u live that this is everyday life...I was born and raised in NY now live in ATL and its not an everyday thing(although surprisingly more common in ATL) ..its not unheard of but most robberies I am aware of dont end in bloodshed if the victims comply..I'd rather let the crook steal his 30 bucks and carton of cigarettes. there is no glory in your daughter saying..My father couldnt be her today (at her weding) b/c he got killed at quikie mart shootout that he started when a guy tried to steal the 59.98 in the cash register or..my dad missed the perp and shot a little boy, now he's in jail...no glory at all in that..My family is what I think of FIRST when Im in a potentially life changing situation, whether it be a violent encounter of professional endevour.
 
who's gonna sue you the punk's gangmember buddies
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and depending on the situation, yes...the perps family.
My family is what I think of FIRST when Im in a potentially life changing situation, whether it be a violent encounter of professional endevour.
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you would be commended for taking action trust me.
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why trust you ?
 
Here we go again with shooting innocent bystanders, I don't know about you but I'm a good enough shot that i'm confident I can neutralize a threat. If your that bad of a shot maybe you shouldn't intervene.
 
stuff happens...have your ever had to shoot in a life and death situation w/adrenaline pumping, hands shaking, a woman crying, teller and perp yelling you breathing heavy and a moving tartget....... when you also have the threat of getting shot as well ?

If your answer is yes and if you can gaurantee these situations will end w/ your best range day type perscission? If so then more power to you...but I still stand on

My family is what I think of FIRST when Im in a potentially life changing situation, whether it be a violent encounter of professional endevour.
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it has nothing to do with anything much but ...how old r u ?I'd be willing to bet you are relativley young and/or dont have a family of your own...If Im wrong....Im surprised. dont take it personal, my initial comments werent even directed toward u directly. I just agreed w/the reply of another poster who happened to be talkig to you.
anywho, Im very confident in my own shooting abilties BUT...I dont need this scenario as the means of proving anything
My family is what I think of FIRST when Im in a potentially life changing situation, whether it be a violent encounter of professional endevour.
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I don't believe I that you are obligated to do anything. It is a personal decision. If I was in a store that was getting robbed, I wouldn't do anything to stop it. It's not my money being stolen, nobody is being harmed, and I wouldn't risk legal liability to protect somebody else's money.
If somebody was in danger of being killed, depending on the circumstances, I would do something. It is never good to try to stop a fight. You don't know who is being beaten up and what for. If I was in a public place and somebody started shooting people, I would do what I could to stop it, depending on the situation.
A while back, in Lewiston Idaho, a guy started shooting people in front of a courthouse. He was armed with a M-14. A "good samaritan", Legally carrying, tried to stop the guy. He was armed with a Kimber .45acp. Needless to say, he was killed, trying to do something to help.
Always analyze the situation before you jump in feet first. Shooting somebody is a huge decision that can cost you a lot of money in legal fees, and run the risk of being charged with a crime, depending on the circumstances. You could also be killed. Consider the consequences of your actions.
 
I know I'm starting to sound like a broken record but there is no legal liability if he has a gun he is a deadly threat, take a deep breath and repeat. The only liability would be if he didn't have a deadly weapon therefore only the owner would have the right to use deadly force (protection of property)
 
IANAL Benny27 but You are not correct in your last statement when it comes to laws here and surrounding Ohio. If the BG has a gun, or a knife, or no weapon at all and you shoot but don't kill him, he can come back on you and sue you civilly for what you own and everything you will ever own for damages. Bad guys win civil suits all the time. A few years ago a burglar was walking on a school roof in Cleveland and fell thru an open skylight left open by a janitor. The courts found the school negligent and awarded the bad guy $700,000 in damages.
If you do shoot him ..... and he dies, I guarantee his family will come back on you and sue you for wrongful death. They will paint the BG to the courts as just a mis-guided youth, and you will have a very expensive party on your hands. If a bad guy has a weapon, this doesn't release you from any and all liability ...at least not in this state or the states surrounding Ohio ..... Tort law permits any one to sue you whether he has a gun or whether he lives or dies.
Lastly ....If you shoot someone and the police show up .... the first thing the police are going to do is protect the rights of the bad guy laying on the floor. The police do not determine your guilt or innocense, the courts do. The police will arrest you, impound your weapon and take you to jail. The police only mark or don't mark the DOA box on the report. Now your legal battle happens and it will come at you from all sides.
In Ohio ...it is illegal to shoot someone to protect property. If they try to take your car, that is property and you can't shoot them unless you can prove your life was at risk of serious physical harm or death. If someone comes in your yard, breaks into your detached garage and steals your tools and you shoot them ...you are going to jail forever as tools are only property. There are no protection of property laws here whether you are the owner or not of said property.
As Clint Smith sez to those who go thru his training classes: "When you shoot someone, your troubles didn't end, they've only just begun".
Ohio Rusty
 
ohio rusty, I'm sorry you live in Ohio but here in Tennessee criminals don't have rights. I would suggest you get your sh*t together and get out of there. That sounds like a pretty messed up justice system. You could be right on the protection of property I'll have to check on that.
 
I'll agree with you on the messed up Justice system here in Ohio ....... We also have some weird and non-sensicle CCW laws that need to be changed or abolished also .....
Ohio Rusty
 
I checked on the protection of property laws and in Tennessee it says you can threaten or use force deamed necessary to protect property or belongings, but is unclear on what "force" entails.
 
I checked on the protection of property laws and in Tennessee it says you can threaten or use force deamed necessary to protect property or belongings, but is unclear on what "force" entails.
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I'm no lawyer, and I sure wouldn't want a jury to interpret what "force" means. They may not think that deadly force was necessary to protect your belongings. I don't agree with this. I think that deadly force is acceptable to protect not only yourself, but your possesions as well. A jury may not think so.
America has grown soft. The legal system tends to give more rights to criminals than to victims of crime. There is legislation in place in certain areas of the country that turns entire populations into victims through strict gun control. Gun control creates havens for criminals. Washington DC has very strict gun control that, until recently, banned handgun possesion. It still has one of the highest crime rates in the US. Criminals don't fear the possibility of being shot during the commision of a crime, because it's not a possibility.
San Francisco banned handguns, and the local DA had something like a 56% conviction rate. What does that say to criminals? Prey on the local populous, because we have taken any means to defend themselves away.
 
you're right about that, personally I would never use deadly force over property or belongings unless it's my dog..:cool:
 
And what about someone like me back in my day--long hair, beard, tattoos, biker garb--who's got five guys on me while we're on the ground cussing, fighting and rolling around, and I yell, "I'M A COP!!! Help me out!"

Can't identify me, unless I ask the guys I'm fight with for a time-out so I can badge you so you can make POSITIVE identification, so do you let me just get my brains stomped out or stabbed or shot?

I got into that exact same situation on a backroad in Alabama one night, except it was with three guys. My gov't car was behind the suspects' car and I had my grill lights and kojak going. A citizen stopped and fired two shots in the air, which stopped the fight.

He yelled at me, "I've got a permit!"

I asked him how he knew who to yell at and he told me, "Three guys on one, I figured you were the cop."

Geez, this place is becoming a haven for keyboard commandos that would be better off going to school instead of skipping class to play on their parent's computer.
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I always love how those who openly profess they would do nothing because THEY by-god come first and foremost before anyone and everyone else, always resort to the "commando" retort. Best they can do, I suppose. . .

I'm still shaking my head in utter disbelief that anyone who works behind a badge would simply walk past a fellow citizen in imminent danger of being seriously hurt or killed and do nothing simply because they're "off-duty" and then disparage anyone who believe helping out is the moral and proper thing to do.

Jeff
 
That first example you gave about the CCW holder coming out of the club and potentially saving the boucer's life (thank god for him, by the way), do we know if he was legally carrying? I don't mean to play devil's advocate, but I'm pretty new at CCW and wanted clarification. Isn't a club usually a place that serves alcohol (a glorified bar), and wouldn't that place be off-limits to CCW's. Maybe it's a state by state thing. Was he supposed to have his gun in the club?
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Depends on the state law, correct.

Here in NH, it's legal. Other states, it's not.
 
I always love how those who openly profess they would do nothing because THEY by-god come first and foremost before anyone and everyone else, always resort to the "commando" retort. Best they can do, I suppose. . .

I'm still shaking my head in utter disbelief that anyone who works behind a badge would simply walk past a fellow citizen in imminent danger of being seriously hurt or killed and do nothing simply because they're "off-duty" and then disparage anyone who believe helping out is the moral and proper thing to do.
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I guess summoning "On Duty" LEO's and being a good witness is nothing, at least it seems so by what you are typing. Sorry, but I am more important to myself than you are, just as you should be more important to yourself than I am.

We each have to live our lives and be able to look at ourselves in the mirror when we shave. I've already been there, I know what I will do because I've already done it IRL. I'll give you a little hint, Use Of Force Investigations SUCK. Testifying as to why you did what you did SUCKS.

I can face myself in the mirror just fine. Like I said before, you better make dang sure you know who all the players are before you get involved if you are off duty or carrying as a non LEO. You will be "Monday Morning Quarterbacked" until the cows come home and the ones that will judge your decisions, made in a split second, will have weeks to consider all the information available.

My first responsibility is to my family. If I get locked away in prison because of something I did then I would be shirking my duties to them. If I have to sell the house to pay my attorney I have let my family down. Heroes are great in movies, life isn't a movie.

There is a reason that guns are referred to as a "tool of last resort".

Biker
 
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