Moral Obligation to Take Action

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On Duty I will do what is required within the scope of my employment.

Off Duty my guns are to protect me and mine only. The only exception to that is if I see an identified law enforcemnet officer in need of assistance. That will be action taken, "not in the scope of my employment" according to my Agency's "legal beagle". The Agency wants to limit it's vicarious liability, so why should I expose myself to that needlessly?

Jim Keenan's post brought up a very good point. Things are not always what they seem, and you will not know all the "players". That's a lot of responsibility on your shoulders if you decide to intervene.

Biker
 
Dudley Doright is on the street and sees a woman coming out of a building, screaming that she is being attacked. She is followed by a tough-looking man who runs her down, throws her to the ground and holds her down. A real nasty guy, so Dudley Doright shoots him. The woman jumps up and runs away. Dudley had killed an FBI agent arresting a nurse who murdered 50 patients in a nursing home, and let the woman free to take on another nursing job.
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We were taught and had it drilled into us constantly that (since we did not wear uniforms) when enacting an arrest such as you described above, to make sure EVERYONE knew we were police officers.

If we DIDN'T, there just might be a Dudley Doright looking to "make his day."

Unless you are absolutely, positively (what we used to call FedEx sure) 100% positive of what you are seeing, it always pays to take a second to think.

Jeff
 
BikerRN said:
Off Duty my guns are to protect me and mine only. The only exception to that is if I see an identified law enforcemnet officer in need of assistance.
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Oh, I see.

You'll stop and help a fellow cop, but not a fellow citizen?

Wonderful.

Jeff
 
Is it really my obligation to take action?
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If it can be done with reasonable belief that such action will decrease the victim count, then yes.

If it is done stupidly and ignorantly, then no.

Example: You see a man attacking a woman in an alley. You pull your firearm, take aim and yell, he turns and runs. -GOOD

Example: You are in a bank, there are 5 men with guns pointed in every direction. You are amongst 6 other patrons huddled on the floor. You reach for your gun and take 5 shots at one man taking him out, but miss with the third shot which flies by the armed man, goes through a service desk and hits a bank teller in the thigh pelting her with shrapnel from the desk as well. The other 4 men turn and begin firing in your direction. You as well as 3 others are injured/killed. -BAD
 
That's right, I will help a fellow LEO because I can IDENTIFY them.

I am thinking of uniformed officers here, not plainclothes or undercover officers. I don't know all the players and what caused the situation, so why would I want to play "Hero" and find out later that I was wrong? In uniform an officer is easily identifyable. In "street clothes" it can be hard to identify all the players and their relationships to each other.

Geez, this place is becoming a haven for keyboard commandos that would be better off going to school instead of skipping class to play on their parent's computer.

Biker
 
Biker, I am an adult and far from an internet commando. I also found it odd that as an LEO you wouldn't protect/aid a civilian because of your me and mine mentality however you would aid a strange LEO officer.

Perhaps the reason you are so hostile is because you see how bad that sounds.
 
threegun, I totally agree for some reason a lot of these cops get on these power trips "barney fife syndrome" and think their the only one's that should be carrying guns..etc.
They also think they're the only one's that know the law. I know the law and I know my rights, and no cop is going to tell me that I'm in the wrong because I choose to protect an innocent third party in distress. Notice I didn't say all cops and generally speaking I respect them completely.
 
Well the fact is this, If a person visibly has a weapon with possible intent on using it for robbery, kidnapping, assault, or whatever it is naive to just sit back and say well let's just see what he does.
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Yes. let's see what he does. You starting a gunfight does not fit into that category. If you do shoot at him, plan on him shooting back at you and at others. There is a reason even LE instructs off-duty officers to not get involved except under very pressing circumstances.
 
Well David, what if the guy blows the clerk's head off don't you think that could have been avoided if you would have taken action.
 
Well, benny, one can play "what if" games all day long. What if you shoot the BG and in his death throes he squeezes off a round and kills a 6 year old girl who is coming into the store to get a strawberry ice cream? Wouldn't that have been avoided if you had not taken any action? One can play that game all day, without any end. The facts are simple---if you start shooting, there are going to be bullets flying around. If the BG is not shooting, there are not bullets flying around yet. If he hasn't shot the clerk yet it is unlikely he will shoot the clerk.
 
The one thing the Deputy who taught our CCW class, and the Detective who interviewed us stressed was that a CCW was a badge, and in no way gave us any LEO powers. There is no requirement that you MUST act, but if you do you had better be da%n sure you are right.
 
A little common sense here...

Morally obligated???? How about using some common sense? If you can, you should look over situations BEFORE you take any action at all. To take the wrong gun up against a guy with a more powerful or longer distance shooting gun is NOT morally obligated. It's morally stupid. It gets you killed for nothing. It can get innocent people also killed. You are morally obligated to use your head and think. If you have multiple attackers and you're all alone, do NOT try to take them on by yourself. If your bad guys have rifles and you're armed with a derringer, do NOT act the hero. THINK!! If you're in a mall and shooting starts, your options are:

1. Do nothing and withdraw from the area taking as many innocent people out of the area with you as you can, or
2. Try to get a look at what's going on, analyze what's happening and think through your ability to react and then take carefully, albeit quickly planned, action, or
3. Try to secure the area you are in to defend yourself and other innocent people from being killed.

But whatever you do, don't just go running blind into a situation. Keep cool, calm and collected which will be amazing hard to do with gunshots going off all around you. Panic is your enemy. Remember to positively identify the target that needs to actually be shot and watch out for panicky shoppers fleeing from the bad guy(s). Use cover not concealment to your advantage. Team up with somebody when you can. Multiple sets of eyes see more things and work to better detect threats. Keep your tactics and actions simple and do NOT complicate things. Use your local resources to your advantage. If you're in a mall that has a sportings good store and they have shotguns and ammo handy, grab some of it and put it to use if needed. Got a man in the store who's a bow hunter? Tell him to grab a hunting bow and some arrows to help you out. Got a nurse in the group? Plan to use her/him to treat the wounded as soon as you can. Ex-military people in the group? Arm them with something too. The main thing is to communicate with people near you and to think ahead of trouble and confrontations.
 
It is true, yes, that in most store holdups, the perp will not shoot. If they meant to do that, they usually march in coldly, fo-tays held sideways, and open fire immediately as an execution. In that case, it's already a gunfight, and you just better find hard cover and have better aim.

It seems like it's single holdups in parking lots and the like that are more likely to have the sorts who get off on the fear of their victim and might kill them anyway.

Judge the situation.
 
thunderhawk88, you're right it doesn't give you LE powers but it does give you the power to protect you and yours and also third parties if need be. The officer has to tell students this so they understand liability and that's great. I guess I would rather act if I could rather than ignore the situation. To whoever said that most robberies end without gunfire is wrong, a lot of robberies get very messy it just depends on which drug crazed fool is involved. Anyway the chance of ever being involved in this kind of situation is slim to none thank god..:)
 
More things would be a tough call than an easy one .

A person randomly firing into a crowd is an easy call .

Two men engaged in a gunfight is a tough call as one could be a cop .

A man running through a crowd with a knife slashing anyone he can , easy call .

A man standing in one place and simply waving a knife around and having an emotional fit , tough call . For all you know he just fought off a couple of punks who tried to rob him with that knife .

Guys chasing a women who is screaming bloody murder as she runs away , tough call , could be domestic situation you really want to avoid , she could be mentally Ill and grabbed a handful of pills to commit suicide and he is trying to stop her or she could have his wallet .

Remember even in states with laws that allow a third person to get involved you have to make sure someones life is in danger before you draw that gun much less fire it ..
 
BigO01, Exactly, and a gun pointed at a clerks head or other bystanders is someone's life in danger. That's somebody's loved one they're threatening. Imagine if that was your mother behind the counter with some punk pointing a gun in her face. Now you get my point..;)
 
Mandewolf,

That first example you gave about the CCW holder coming out of the club and potentially saving the boucer's life (thank god for him, by the way), do we know if he was legally carrying? I don't mean to play devil's advocate, but I'm pretty new at CCW and wanted clarification. Isn't a club usually a place that serves alcohol (a glorified bar), and wouldn't that place be off-limits to CCW's. Maybe it's a state by state thing. Was he supposed to have his gun in the club?
 
I have jumped in to help a cop in a fray once. I knew the guy. I was unarmed at the time.

If I saw a LEO getting the worst of it I would probably yell "little help" and see how they were feeling about assistance. If a LEO was down and taking punishment don't think I would be able to pontificate. My past would likely come back to haunt me and this fat approaching middle age guy would probably jump in and hope for the best.

Unidentified persons, it would have to be pretty compelling and clear cut.
 
Well, benny, one can play "what if" games all day long. What if you shoot the BG and in his death throes he squeezes off a round and kills a 6 year old girl who is coming into the store to get a strawberry ice cream?
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great example and very likely. In many robberies the perp is just as scared as the victims..many times they dont really have intentions of shooting but just know that the pressence of a gun will get them what they want...I know of robberies commited w/an unloaded gun for that very reason(im not crazy enough to believe this is the case in most situations) BUT..... My duty is to me and my loved ones...not to make sure that before its over, bullets are gonna fly..If he shoots the game plan changes, if he doesnt shoot...eveyone gets to go home....quickie marts 157.89 in the register is not worth the possibility of me starting a shootout, taking a life, losing all my money in civil court, possibly ending up in jail, my daughter not having a father, my wife...ehh you get the point

Many times the people who advocate this vigilante stuff are people who are not married, and dont have kids or people just being commandos from behind a keyboard...when you have a family it becomes clear that you main priority in these type situations is getiing home safley and making sure that your family is safe.
 
Morally ...... I have an obligation to my family and extended family. That is where it ends. I'm not trying to be mean or calloused. It is just the way we need to be when it comes to pulling our pistols and pulling the trigger. Right now I'm in Columbus Ohio ........ As I set here typing, In this city women are being raped, children are being molested, people are being robbed at gun and knifepoint, men and women are being assulted and abused, some brutally and they will end up in the hospital tonight. At this exact moment, these same exact crimes are happening to people in Cleveland, Cincinnati, Chicago, L.A., D.C., Philadelphia and small cities everywhere around me. One poster asked a question: When you know these crimes are happening and you aren't involving yourself to stop them, how can you live with yourself ??? I can live with myself just fine, and I'll sleep well. The moral responsibility of protecting every victim in every town in and around Ohio is not my moral responsibility nor is it any of my business. Secondly, you better be careful how you get yourself involved legally. Here is the scenario .,... you come apon a man beating another with piece of 2 by 4. You pull your gun and order him to stop. He refuses and you kill him. Turns out the guy he was hitting started the fight. Now according to Ohio law, you will go to prison forever because you hurt the person that didn't start the altercation.

Lastly I refuse to get myself legally involved because I refuse to be harassed, beaten, robbed and raped in prison by inmates and gang bangers who only know that life and have nothing to lose. Virtually all of us on here know only freedom and going to work and home daily. If you get stupid and end up in jail, just how long do you think your going to last in a prison full of thugs and criminals that will chew you up and spit you out like it's nothing? Just how tough do you think your gonna be when the guards put you in an overcrowded cell of street tough gang members and they turn out the lights ..... You'll be squealing like a pig allnight everynight (images of Deliverance) because you are soft from your cushy 9 to 5 job and you are in their turf. You wanna play hero and get yourself legally and morally involved when you should have kept your nose out of other peoples business??? Be prepared to be tortured, beated and butt-raped because you felt like you had some phantom responsibility to go beyond your family. Your name is in the phonebook. What happens when these same gang members threaten your family with extortion, and threaten to have their friends on the outside rape your wife and harm your kids (at home alone without you) unless they get lots of money. How are you going to be of any help to your family sitting in an 8 by 10 jail being butt-buddy to a gang? Which is now the more important scenario... protecting some stranger or protecting the family you love ..... You can't protect them because you decided to stand on your moral testicles and put yourself in jail for months or years.

I'm not saying I'm not getting involved to help the police. I plan on being an excellent witness for the police to help them do THEIR job. The police are sworn and commissioned to stop crime, not me. I helped the police two months ago. I followed a person under the influence for miles with 911 on the phone helping the police to stop the DUI/Drug induced driver before he killed a family by hitting them head on. (This same thing happened in Toledo a few days ago. No one got involved, and 4 kids and the mom died).

I'll let the police do their job because if they get sued, they have a whole city that will pick up the tab of their lawyers, lawsuit and insurance. I don't want to lose my home, car, personal belongings and all my savings and retirement because I had to pay out $100,000 or more to defend myself in lawsuits for wrongful death, civil injury, etc. The only time I want to be a hero is in the eyes of my family, kids and grand kids. My advice For the rest of the world ..... go out and get your own pistol permit and protect your own self ......
I'll walk thru the gates of hades to protect my family ..... everyone else in the world is just out of luck.
Ohio Rusty
 
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