Model 41 stove piping

Please continue to give info upon further testing

Hello Turtlehead. I have been watching with great interest, as I have a fairly new Model 41. It is NOT a PC model, and I do think your is beautiful. It took me a year to get the standard variety one.

I was very concerned, as I found many posts that described what you did, FTC, FTE so on.

When I finished fixing the small flaws that my 41 had, I was amazed at how well it ran, and how it would eat whatever I fed it.

It would always choke on the first round of the day, then it ran so darn well!!!

I shoot it very accurately, and the trigger feels great. Somehow, the trigger feels better than other guns with the same weight break.

After I got about 600 rounds thru her, she started acting up. Same issue, fail to chamber, fail to eject, the ejecting round jammed on top of the chambering round. Sometimes, I pull the trigger and click, empty chamber. This is all with CCI SV ammo. And yes, it was cleaned out thoroughly, and rails were oiled.

It really was acting as if it were short stroking.

If I use HV ammo, the issue goes away. I tried the same ammo in my Ruger ( which is the most reliable and NOT ammo picky of any 22 auto I ever seen) and it had a stovepipe.
I was thinking that I had a bad box or lot of CCI SV (035 part number)

Anyway, in deciding to clean, and try a different lot of CCI, I noticed that my extractor was exactly how your was?
I also did the "plunk" test with several different rounds and was surprised how loose the chamber is. I don't care, as the gun is very accurate, but I was really surprised to find such a loose chamber on an expensive target gun.

If the extractor is the issue, why did it take over 600 rounds to show itself? Was the new spring keeping enough pressure to hold the round on the bolt? Now that it set it wont?

I will test again with new ammo, but the extractor is still sitting proud of the rim. This is not right. I am sure SW will send a new one, but it too will sit proud.

I can modify it based on the link you provided, but I would just buy the VQ part and move on.

Please report back after some more shooting time, so we ( especially me) can learn if this is the true fix.

I do apologize for asking a question in your thread, but I also think it will become helpful to other 41 owners who search in the future.

Thank you, good luck and kind regards

Rich
 
@redlightrich

I did the plunk test as well with different unfired cartridges and found the same results as you. The chamber did not seem to be tight with any of them. So I decided not to fuss with polishing the chamber and just went with replacing the extractor first.

So let's look at the OEM extractor and the VQ extractor. There is a big difference. Unfortunately I didn't have the foresight to take a picture of them side by side.

Here is a pic of my OEM extractor that was removed: M41OEMextractor.jpg

Here is a link to the VQ extractor: https://volquartsen.com/inventory_configurations/883

Note that the bottom of the claw on the OEM is angled slightly up. It almost seems that these are made this way and must be tuned for each gun.

Note the bottom of the claw on the VQ is angled down (toward the junction of the case and rim). You could say it is "pre-tuned". Read the description. It implies as much. Their extractor also appears to be of higher quality, hardness and tolerances than the original.

Could it be that your extractor rolled its edge due to the softer steel? That's one guess. I would recommend ordering the VQ.

I can tell you that I will probably NOT be doing the tuning on my OEM extractor. It's a pretty involved process. I have the tools to do it but it just isn't worth my time. What I WILL be doing is ordering another VQ extractor to keep as a spare (along with a few other parts). :D

Hope this helps.
 
A few more things to add...

As for choking on the first round of the day... Maybe that is where the mythical drop of oil on the first round of the first magazine could help. ;) In all seriousness, I did swab my chamber with an oiled Q-Tip and then swabbed again with a dry Q-Tip afterward. I suppose that is my own version of the drop of oil trick. And now it will probably become an ongoing superstition for me... :o

As for following up on this thread... You bet. This is certainly not a victory lap. I will be reporting back. Unfortunately my range (Ben Avery) will be closed the next few weeks for berm maintenance.

:)
 
I wish you did a side by side photo of them before you installed the VQ extractor. Measurements would be nice too.

Anyway, well done!
 
That would really show the difference. This payday I'll be ordering a spare VQ extractor and will get you that picture.

Quick summary for those not following too closely: I believe the OEM extractor was not gripping the rim tightly enough to the bolt face and the cases were falling off before they had a chance to hit the ejector.
 
Thank you very much for follow up

Hello again Turtlehead ( I feel sort of disrespectful calling you that, however, none is meant)
Yesterday morning, I spent a little time checking batch numbers on my CCI ammo. I have a good amount of SV, for my target pistols and bolt rifles.

I did remember that immediatly prior to my 41's failures, I opened a new brick.

I now know have 2.5 bricks left with that batch number, and a bunch more of different lot numbers.

I grabbed my 41 and my 1911 Nelson conversion and went back to the range.

I tried the remaining CCI SV in my Nelson, and it wouldn't run. It was an exercise in clearing jambs. After 3 mags 1/2 mags of this, I took the remainder of the ammo in the mag, and dumped it into the dud can. Imagine that? Throwing out CCI ammo? I should have saved it for my bolt rifles, but I was getting annoyed. Lesson learned? All 22 ammo can be suspect, even the venerable CCI.

Then I took out a new batch number of CCI SV, and loaded up my SW 41, and lo and behold, it ran great. It didn't even choke on the first round? I went thru about 150 rounds without incident. No I didn't add oil. I refuse to unless it is a last resort.

My guess is with full power ammo, the extractor is doing very little work, basically holding the spent shell in place until it hits the ejector. But with a weaker round, where it really has to work, it fails.

I do see what you mean, as my extractor looks exactly like yours does. It is grabbing the side of the shell, not holding the rim as it should. I believe this issue is made worse, being the bolt is not as clearly defined as some other guns. There is a bit of slop where the rim sits. When testing the holding power of the extractor, a little wiggle, can shake the round off.
The better I get to know this gun, the more surprised I am by it's amazing accuracy. So much slop, yet it may be my most accurate pistol ( in my hands at least). Volquartsen vaguely describes the issue with the original part.

I don't care if Jim Clark himself told me to oil the first round. If a gun is right, that is the last thing I want to do. I try hard to keep oil away from these surfaces. Also, 22 ammo is plenty lubed from the factory. Maybe there is something to it, but to me, it defies logic.

I am ordering the VQ extractor. At a 12 dollar list price, I can simply put the original away and save it for someone to see it 50 years from now. I better put a note with it that says "junk, don't use"! If I were in a remote location, or so down on funds but up on time, I may try to "tune" it. Currently, I don't see the point.

When I decide to change it, I will take side by side photo's. I am not sure when exactly that will be, but some poor soul will find this thread in the future and their frustration will go away!!

Thank you for posting and sharing. It has helped me, and I am sure it will help others.

I will keep this thread updated as I find relevant facts. I am sorry. I am not hijacking your thread, I am trying to add to it.

Kind regards

Rich
 
First shot.
Consider that the M41 was designed for NRA Conventional - now Precision - shooting in five shot strings, so the magazine would not be loaded full even though its nominal capacity is 10.

My main use for a good .22 is Speed Steel where you want some makeup shots on plates that seem to dodge.
MY M41 does OK with 10 but not 10+1. So I load 10, shoot the first string, and reload with 9 so as to not mash the stack of cartridges any deeper in the clip.
 
NRA Conventional... Ya know? it never even occurred to me that my 41 clip might hold more than 5 rounds. Never even tried it!

I used to shoot the Federal Auto Match, and had fairly good luck with it with only one or two duds out of the whole box. After the last ammo scare, I'm just about convinced the Auto Match quality took a bit of a dive. What I switched to was the Wolf and SK auto match rounds and they come with a oily type stuff already applied to the bullets. I don't know what it is- but it's slick enough to add a whole new degree of difficulty to loading.

I'm curious how the pre-lubed Wolf or SK would work for ya'll?
 
@redlightrich

I suspect most here miss the reference with my username... Probably for the best. :D

Seems like you have the same problem with the extractor as I did. Definitely get the VQ. Will say that I had to beat that bolt pin out with a real hammer and punch. It was in there pretty good. After that, very simple fix. Really is an easy gun to work on. There's no excuse for my 5 year procrastination.

Please feel free to add your experiences to this thread and I will continue to post updates.
 
When you do a side by side comparision, make note of the differences. You can even xerox the two side by side and have a pattern. Then modify the factory one to be closer to the VQH one. Install it and see if there's a difference.
 
@turtlehead, the funny thing is when my gun arrived brand new, the pin that holds the bolt was never peened properly from the factory. There is a thread about it here.
Just racking the slide a few times caused it to come out to the point of the firing pin popping out back of the slide!!
I put it back together, and used a small ball bearing and brass jaw vice to peen it nicely.
Now I need to remove it again!!!! I hope I didn't do too good a job!!!

I will photocopy both, side by side. That is a terrific idea, although, at this point in my life, I can afford to simply buy the upgraded VQ extractor.

It is a good thing however to have a pattern, and the ability to fix it. I suspect that there are a good number of shooters that may be retired or have some extra time on their hands, and would love to fix their own, just for the sake of a project. I respect that.

The Model 41 amazes me. It has a sloppy chamber, it has a sloppy slide, the rim of the round moves sloppily in the bolt, yet it is laser accurate? Even with mediocre ammo, like CCI SV or FED AM?
It does have a wonderful trigger, and feels just right in my hand. Love it!!

Rich
 
Well, I had not ever thought of CCI SV as mediocre ammo and recently bought two cases at $.06 per round. That's 2012 prices! :D I'm sure some are cringing at the gouging I took... But I'm pretty happy. The pistol seems to like it.

Anyway, the range is open again after two weeks of maintenance. Went and shot about 200 rounds today consisting of 4 different brands. CCI SV, SK Standard Plus, Federal Automatch and some unknown stuff in that order.

The good news is the CCI SV shot great at 50 yards with average groups of 3 inches. Semi rapid fire and not being terribly serious off a Protektor bag. The bad news is the SK shot 2 inch groups... It's what I shoot in my bolt rifle and goes for $.12 per round. On sale. Interestingly, both shot to the same point of impact. So that was cool.

Then came 2 mags of Automatch which seemed to be blowing the lube out of the barrel and causing a surprising amount of smoke. Won't be using any more of that in the pistol. It does shoot pretty well out of the rifle and I have 5 boxes bought during the panic. I'll plink in the desert with that until it's gone.

Lastly 2 mags of whatever it was. Caused two malfunctions. A different version of the previous stove piping. But I'm going to blame these on me and the ammo and not the gun this time. Probably some 60 year old stuff given to me by my shooting buddy. I'm thinking it was weak.

So that's the update. I will be needing a pistol scope to wring some more accuracy out of her. My eyes are not so good and 50 yards is the outer limit for me unaided (using a 3 MOA dot). The gun should do 1" groups without much problem at that range. Will need to design and build a dedicated rest for it soon now that the problems have been worked out.

It's always a good day at the range. :)
 
Just to clarify: The spent case extracts fully from the chamber but is then jammed up by the next feeding round before it has a chance to clear the gun.
Click to expand...

This is a blowback pistol and all the extractor does is hold the rim against the bolt face. It does not extract the round, residual pressure does that. If however the extractor is worn, insufficient length, and does not hold the rim firmly against the breech face, then cases can fall off, fall forward, and jam the mechanism.

I have been having the exact same troubles in my M41. I may try the Volquartsen extractor. I think the failure to eject is a symptom of a weak ignition system, one that is symptomatic of the design.

I am shooting primarily SK Std plus because this has been the most reliable ammunition in my M41, to date. I notice weak ejection and recoil at times. I believe this is due to primer cake sensitivity. Some ammunition, by brand and by lot, has more sensitive primer cake. I am of the opinion that insensitive primer cake either does not ignite, or if it ignites, does not produce a powerful burn. That would explain weak ejection because the combustion pressures are low.

I have purchased new mainsprings for my M41 and M46. But I did get what I call "stove pipe" jams, where a round does not fully eject but is caught between the top strap and the next round. It takes my leatherman tool to clear the jam. I consider the top strap a source of unreliability since it traps cases. Since I use an Ultradot, I don't need it, but it is there for the rear sight. Since the last match I cleaned out the firing pin recesses and springs. I will see if that did anything.

I did notice some ammunition ejecting better than my SK Std plus, so I am going to play around with more ammunition types. Aguila Pistol has been a complete failure. Very unreliable in ejection and sometimes feed.
 
@Slamfire

Read posts 25, 42 and 45. My only problem seems to have been the extractor.



And this Saturday I will be taking on my buddy and his 10/22 at 100 yards. :D
 
Strange. MY M41 has a quite snug chamber. Snug enough to slam fire if you put a round directly in the chamber and drop the slide on it. I won't do THAT again. Empty case with no dent kept as a reminder.

I went through three local Speed Steel matches, perhaps 450 rounds of CCI Standard velocity with NO malfunctions. Fresh Aquila standard seems ok, too.
All I have of Wolf MT or SK Jagd Standard is salvage so I cannot be sure if it is damaged or just too soft for function.
 
@Slamfire Read posts 25, 42 and 45. My only problem seems to have been the extractor.

And this Saturday I will be taking on my buddy and his 10/22 at 100 yards.
Click to expand...

Since my last posts I have shot in three Bullseye matches. One a 50 foot indoor and two 2700 outdoor matches. I asked very experienced Bud's what might be causing problems, one that I had not heard of before was a battered breech face. That makes sense for if the rim recess is rounded on the breech face (called the bolt) then the case would slide off just due to extractor tension. Other potential failure mechanisms were a rough chamber, worn extractor.

I examined the extractor hook and found some wear. I did not remove the extractor or spring. I tested extractor tension by pushing a case on to the breech face and it stayed in place. I don't know if this is what Armorer's do, but I think this is a valid test of extractor tension. Because I have wear, I did buy a Volquartsen extractor, but I have not installed it to date. Never know when parts become unavailable.

I also removed the firing pin from my M41 and M46 pistols. The M46 firing pin and spring were quite clean, and I don't recall any systemic stovepipes or failures to eject. I also checked my data books and the problems I had were with the M41. When I removed the M41 firing pin it was coated with brown oil. The firing pin channel was also oily. I wiped out the channel and firing pin and spring. I then took the pistol to the range and have fired 230 rounds in competition. Whereas before I had issues with Aquila Pistol Match, that ammunition fired and ejected strongly. I shot CCI Green tag and SK Standard Plus. I had a stove pipe in one match with the CCI Green tag. The case mouth caught on the extractor hook. Other than that, no failures to eject and no other stove pipe failures. This is with a pistol that previously was very sensitive to ammunition and was giving me frequent malfunctions with Aquila Pistol match.

I must conclude that an oily firing pin and spring rob this mechanism of striker power. I am of the opinion that weak firing pin strikes were causing poor ignition and that was causing the stove pipes. Since to replace the extractor, you must also remove the firing pin and spring, it is very possible that your cure had nothing to do with the extractor.
 
I'm pretty certain it was the extractor. Firing pin was dry.

Another 200 rounds with no failures last weekend. But I found my rear rest was lacking so I'm working on that.
 
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