Mexican government on how to sneak across our border

[wingman]

Tancredo Presses Governor, Legislative Leaders to Block In-State Tuition for Illegal Aliens



Asks Owens to Wield Veto Pen if Necessary to Reject Measure


From the Office of Congressman Tom Tancredo
FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE
January 19, 2005

WASHINGTON, D.C. - U.S. Representative Tom Tancredo (R-Littleton) today urged Colorado Governor Bill Owens as well as the Speaker of the State House and President of the Senate to block the enactment of legislation designed to provide higher education benefits to illegal aliens.

"I hope you will make it clear to incoming legislative leaders that you plan to veto any legislation that will force Colorado taxpayers to subsidize the tuition of illegal aliens," Tancredo wrote in a letter to Owens. "This is a luxury we do not, and can not afford American families out of Colorado."

State Legislatures across the country are considering ill-advised proposals to extend taxpayer subsidized in-state tuition rates to illegal aliens. Federal law (8 USC 1623), however, requires that states may not extend such benefits to illegal aliens unless they extend the same benefit to any U.S. citizen regardless of their state of residence - a requirement that could decimate state budgets.

"Given the financial strain that illegal aliens place on the K-12 education system in Colorado, one can only imagine the kind of fiscal consequences that would result if state taxpayers were forced to provide tuition benefits for both illegal aliens and prospective American students from the other 49 states -on top of providing the benefit for Colorado residents," Tancredo added.

Previous proposals to force Colorado taxpayers to subsidize illegal alien tuition were rejected by Republican-controlled legislatures - although Democrats now control both Houses of the General Assembly. Similar legislation (HB 1124) has been reintroduced this year by a Democrat.

"Our priority ought to be educating Colorado's kids," said Tancredo, "not asking state taxpayers to foot the higher education bills of illegal aliens and people from out-of-state."

 

[Black_Iron]

LOL, Black_Iron, I hate to poke fun, but you might want to note that Spanish is a european language. Spain was a hapsburg-ruled state when it conquered the Americas, and the hapsburgs as we know...are Germanic. It's silly to draw that kind of cultural distinction. The United States is not western European anymore, and hasn't been for a long time. It is American. If you think we should be more like France and Germany, then you my friend are arguing for the wrong party.

Spanish is a Latin/Mediterrean language. The cultures of Latin America are not Anglo-American.

You really have no point other than irrational, knee-jerk rambling in favor of illegals. You have yet to comment on the document issued by Mexico on how to immigrate "safely" when they should be cracking down on it.

Spanish is an international language, just like English. It's also spoken in Asia, the middle east, and throughout North and South America. It is the second most spoken language in the world, right behind English.

Any relevant nations that speak Spanish that are ethnically and culturally not Latin American?

The Phillipines, are ethnically and culturally "Spanish", but do the Chinese or Japanese or the Arabs have large Spanish speaking populations as well as the pervasive influence of Spanish signs, documents, etc? No, they're english.

Again, Black_Iron, you are failing to discriminate between illegal immigrants and American citizens of hispanic descent. There are census numbers available, and here they are:

Hispanics in the US, 39.9 million. http://www.factmonster.com/spot/hhmcensus1.html

The Census failed to discriminate here as well.

The U.S. Census defines Hispanics as people who originate from Spanish speaking countries or regions. Hispanics can be of any race.

Population

Population of the U.S. by Race and Hispanic Origin

U.S. Hispanic/Latino Population

39.9 million
The estimated Hispanic population of the United States as of July 1, 2003, making people of Hispanic origin the nation’s largest race or ethnic minority. Hispanics constitute 13.7% of the nation’s total population. (This does not include the 3.9 million Hispanic residents of Puerto Rico.)


102.6 million
The projected Hispanic population of the United States as of July 1, 2050. According to this projection, Hispanics would constitute 24% of the nation’s total population on that date.


Nearly 67 million
The number of people of Hispanic origin who would have been added to the nation’s population between 2000 and 2050, according to this projection. The projected percentage increase—188%—would amount to a near tripling.


67%
The proportion of Hispanic-origin people who are of Mexican background. Of the remainder, 14% are of Central and South American backgrounds, 9% Puerto Rican, 4% Cuban and 7% other Hispanic origins.

50%
The percentage of the Hispanic-origin population that lives in California and Texas. California is home to 11.9 million Hispanics and Texas to 7.3 million. More than 3-in-4 Hispanics live in seven states, which have Hispanic populations of 1 million or more. They are California, Texas, New York, Florida, Illinois, Arizona, and New Jersey.


43%
The proportion of New Mexico’s population that is Hispanic, highest of any state. California and Texas were next, at 34% each.


The Latino Family


8.5 million
The number of Hispanic families who reside in the United States. Of these families, 63% include their own children under 18 years old.


68%
The percentage of Hispanic families consisting of a married couple.


44%
The percentage of Hispanic families consisting of a married couple with children under 18.


Spanish Language

Persons Speaking a Language Other than English at Home

29 million
The number of U.S. residents age 5 and older who speak Spanish at home. Spanish speakers constitute a ratio of more than 1-in-10 U.S. residents. Among all those who speak Spanish at home, more than one-half say they speak English "very well."


Coming to America

Countries of Birth of the Foreign-Born Population

Immigrants to U.S. by Country of Origin

40%
The percentage of the Hispanic population that was foreign-born in 2002. Among the foreign-born Hispanic population that year, 52% entered the United States between 1990 and 2002.


61%
The percentage of Hispanic children with at least one foreign-born parent.


9.9 million
The number of foreign-born people in 2002 who were born in Mexico, by far more than any other Latin American country or any other country in the world for that matter. Other Latin American countries of origin with more than half a million foreign-born were Cuba (887,000), El Salvador (873,000), the Dominican Republic (654,000), Colombia (566,000), and Guatemala (511,000). Overall, there are 17.3 million foreign-born people from Latin American countries.


Income and Poverty


$32,997
The real median income of Hispanic households in 2003, down 2.6% from the previous year.


22.5%
The poverty rate among Hispanics in 2003, unchanged from 2002.


Education

Educational Attainment by Race and Hispanic Origin

57%
The percentage of Hispanics 25 and over who had at least a high school education in 2003, up from 53% a decade earlier.
QUOTE]

Number of people born in Mexico: 9.9 million. Same source.

That's 30 million hispanics who are American born versus less than ten million who are foreign born. Just like I said, it's not even close. Do you support throwing out 30 million Americans based on race alone?

The "30 million number" is an estimation, and it has nothing to do with whether they are American citizens or not. Your assertions are groundless. They are not Americans and the primary reasons for throwing them out have nothing to do with race but the reason they're still here does.

BTW, just to answer your irrevelant question, I wouldn't have a problem with it has no other nation does either. Japan, Malaysia, etc. Japan has no problem at all booting out foreign elements and has done so without regard to the Marxist nonsense that is spread in the Mass media. I wouldn't have let the problem grow to be this large in the first place, and regardless of the number, a majority of them are simply here illegally.

And when was this census taken?

Your answer to theBluesmans question was unclear. Do you believe that citizenship should be based on race? If so, do you think the constitution is wrong? I'd like to hear your view on the US constitution. If you admire our founders so much, you should support it, right?

Do illegal aliens have citizenship? Like I stated before, you're not rationally discussing this issue at all, but using cheap overused arguments that have little relevance to this topic.

The US Constitution is clear on the rights afforded citizens, and illegals and even legal residents are not citizens.

What is the problem with having citizenship based on race? Perhaps you should go bother Japan on this issue as to why they don't have a significant Latino quota.

As for there being "people like you", there are obviously fewer than there are who support my view, or voters would not support the printing of documents in spanish or toleration of hispanic culture. They do, and most politicians do. How do you explain that, if most people are with you?

Because it's obvious that this government has and does not represent the interests of the people who voted it in office. See the thread on Arizona passing Prop.200 to know how they feel about Mexicans who don't belong there.

I wonder why Spanish should get a special priority? How about English and Vietnamese documents? Why specifically Spanish?

So we can get your annoying assumptions about my "race" out of the way, I'm Irish American. Does that mean I shouldn't be a citizen, because I'm a member of a group that the founding fathers didn't really embrace? Or is skin color your whole basis for citizenship?

Yeah, and I'm a black/Chinese hybrid!

Again, what are you trying to insinuate with these "skin color" arguments? I don't see why the government should print Spanish documents or whatever to an illegal populace! Fluent English is a REQUIREMENT for citizenship, if I'm not mistaken, as well as a clear record in obeying the immigration laws of this country. It's goes for the Irish as well as the Hispanics, but I don't see the Irish agitating for English/Gaelic documents.

BTW, Hispanics are one of the most racist/ethnocentric groups on this planet. Hence their attitude.

 

[shootinstudent]

Again, you did not answer the question: Do you support defining citizenship based on race? The constitution does not allow this. What do you think?

There are large arab populations who speak spanish, and no, phillipino is not a "latin" culture. That's just plain wrong.

On the census issue, let's use some logic...if 40 percent of the hispanic population was foreign born, what is the other 60 percent? Foreign born? No. If it's not in the category "foreign born", it's American, because citizenship is defined by being born in America.

I do not appreciate being called a liar. The fact that you think an Irish american would never hold my views only demonstrates why you don't understand how politicians like Bush keep getting re-elected. They believe in a society that isn't divided by Race, like the majority.

BTW-You're the one arguing for a country that excludes all races but yours, and you have said that other cultures are "vile." How many hispanic groups are out there saying that no whites should be allowed in the US?

 

[Black_Iron]

It really doesn't matter what you are since you're a hispanic apologist.

There are large arab populations who speak spanish, and no, phillipino is not a "latin" culture. That's just plain wrong.

Wrong on both counts.

Where are these large Arab populations who speak Spanish outside of Spain?

The Phillipines was colonized by Spain, and it suffered the same fate as the rest of Latin America did.

On the census issue, let's use some logic...if 40 percent of the hispanic population was foreign born, what is the other 60 percent? Foreign born? No. If it's not in the category "foreign born", it's American, because citizenship is defined by being born in America.

And what percentage of those "foriegn born" are illegal? Citizenship should be given only to the descendants of citizens, the "automatic" citizenship requirement should be revoked.

I do not appreciate being called a liar. The fact that you think an Irish american would never hold my views only demonstrates why you don't understand how politicians like Bush keep getting re-elected. They believe in a society that isn't divided by Race, like the majority.

Who called you a liar?

You could be many other things than a hypenated American, which does nothing to describe you who actually are. And you aren't making any point by yelling "Race".

You didn't answer my questions about Japan.

Sorry, Hispanics are not going to get more "ethnic favoritism", and if they continue to agitate for that, then I will not be ashamed of advocating "favoritism" for my own ethnicity, as a white American.

Bush got re-elected because Kerry is worse.

 

[shootinstudent]

1. Arab populations speaking spanish: Morrocco, Tunisia, Egypt. There are also jews in Turkey (not arab, of course) who speak spanish exclusively.

2. What percentage of those foreign born are illegal is beside the point. The point is that there are millions and millions more hispanics who are American born (and therefore citizens) than there are illegal immigrants. Go ahead and give me your idea of the rule for citizenship if you don't like this, and while you're at it let us know if you think the constitution is wrong.

3. You called me a liar when you said "yeah and I'm a black/chinese hybrid," and you did again when you speculated on my ethnic origins.

4. I didn't answer about Japan because it's irrelevant what the japanese do. Why on earth would you want to model your society after Japan? The japanese are hated for their racism and genocide in Asia during world war II. I think it's safe to say that's not a model for America.

5. The issue isn't "favoratism". You're advocating removing people from the country based on nothing other than race. Not birthplace, not actions, only race and ethnic heritage. If I'm wrong, then tell me what other standard you want to use...then explain why ALL hispanics still leave the US based on that.

 

[TheBluesMan]

TheBluesMan, you cannot be that hopelessly deluded. My ancestors built this nation, and the creators of this nation as well as their descendants are the ones that obviously belong here, no?

Are you implying that no hispanics helped to build this nation? Did not Christopher Columbus come here under the auspices of the Queen of Spain? Did not Ponce De Leon explore parts of Florida in the 1500s? Ever heard of Hernando de Soto or Francisco Vasquez de Coronodo? These men were what we now call Hispanic and they were among the first to begin building this nation. At the time the pilgrims were struggling to maintain their colonies in the 1620s, Hispanics already had flourishing towns in what is now Florida and the Southwest. Do you deny your own words and profess that their decendents don't belong, but somehow your (and my) ancestors are worthy of having their decendents reside here? Please explain yourself.

They came from Western Europe, and establishedits traditions and civilization, as well as adopting English to be the spoken language.

Last time I checked, Spain was in Western Europe. Has that changed? Nobody tells me nuthin'...

Why don't you come right out and say that only white people should be here? Is this not an accurate representation of your position?

Also, please tell me when English was adopted as the official language of the United States. In practice, it is the most popular language in use in our country, but it has never been established as the official language. Perhaps you should take this issue up with your representative in Washington.

Do you think Hispanics belong here for some odd reason?

I am more interested in knowing why you believe that all hispanics should be removed from this country regardless of their status as citizens.

Given the fact that they have little respect for this country or its people?

If you had any respect for this country and what it stands for you wouldn't be advocating the removal of an entire race of people.

Don't they have 20 or so countries where they orginially came from?

Yes, they have many different countries from which they originally came. Your statement supports my contention that the decendents of the Spanish explorers and early Hispanic pilgrims who helped to build this nation belong here.

Do you believe that anybody can just run in here because their countries are a failure and recreate that country here?

This is actually two questions. Yes, I believe that anybody can just run in here and become a citizen or resident alien according to the laws of our land. People of every race do this all the time. Many also come here illegally. Do you wish to exclude some of the legal immigrants because of their race or national heritage? I agree that illegal aliens should be repatriated when they are discovered. As to recreating their country here - Every nationality brings something to the table. What is your beef with the culture and traditions of Hispanics? Do you get all worked up over St. Patricks Day too? How about Christmas? Groundhog Day?

 

[Lord_Nikon]

To add to the whole "Spanish is a European language" thing, one could also look at the roots of the language. Spanish is a Romance language, which means that it is derived from Latin. Last time I checked, the Romans were the ones speaking Latin during their republic/empire/take over the world phase. And I'm pretty sure Rome is still a city located in Europe.

 

[Black_Iron]

Wow TheBluesMan!

You need to tone that attitude down.

Are you implying that no hispanics helped to build this nation? Did not Christopher Columbus come here under the auspices of the Queen of Spain? Did not Ponce De Leon explore parts of Florida in the 1500s? Ever heard of Hernando de Soto or Francisco Vasquez de Coronodo? These men were what we now call Hispanic and they were among the first to begin building this nation. At the time the pilgrims were struggling to maintain their colonies in the 1620s, Hispanics already had flourishing towns in what is now Florida and the Southwest. Do you deny your own words and profess that their decendents don't belong, but somehow your (and my) ancestors are worthy of having their decendents reside here? Please explain yourself.

Hispanics (and certainly these explorers) did not build the modern United States. We've seen what the Spanish built (in Latin America) and what became of it.

I think you know what happened to the Spanish in Florida and the Southwest. They got their behinds whooped, and the territory got annexed.

It's all about who has the power, if you didn't understand that yet. I don't see what point you're trying to prove.

Last time I checked, Spain was in Western Europe. Has that changed? Nobody tells me nuthin'...

Spain is considered a Mediterrean country. Your modern illegal immigrants do not come from Europe nor are they culturally "Western".

Why don't you come right out and say that only white people should be here? Is this not an accurate representation of your position?

No, it's not. I've indicated that I don't have a problem with that position, but I certainly believe that illegals should be booted. There's no reason why I should be ashamed of something most other nations (that these immigrants come from no less) do.

My understanding of a "nation" is one that has unique identity, with recognized customs and whatnot that distinguish it from another nation. Unless you are a "one-worlder", it's very clear that these illegals have been re-creating Mexico or Ecuador in our country, and the rest of us are being forced to accomodate and "understand" these invaders! If that's not ridiculous, I don't know what is.

Also, please tell me when English was adopted as the official language of the United States. In practice, it is the most popular language in use in our country, but it has never been established as the official language. Perhaps you should take this issue up with your representative in Washington.

It's not. Just like English isn't the "official" language of the world but it widely been recognized to be so. English is for the most part culturally neutral. Having Spanish widely written and spoken alongside english is nothing but ethnic favoritism.

I am more interested in knowing why you believe that all hispanics should be removed from this country regardless of their status as citizens.

Why not? I simply have no moral objection to it. But, unfortunately, the discussion is about illegals, and not "citizens". I believe that citizenship and laws pertaining to residency are weak and have been corrupted.

If you had any respect for this country and what it stands for you wouldn't be advocating the removal of an entire race of people.

If they were white and did the same thing, I would have no problems removing them either, but guess what? Whites (and blacks) have historically done what a majority of Hispanics are resistant to doing.

Don't they have 20 or so countries where they orginially came from?

Yes, they have many different countries from which they originally came. Your statement supports my contention that the decendents of the Spanish explorers and early Hispanic pilgrims who helped to build this nation belong here.

When I say "20 or so countries" I believe I mean Mexico, EL Salvador, Honduras, Belize, Peru, Chile, Argentina, Colombia, Bolivia, Uruguay, Paraguay, etc.

Are you advocating that the populations of all these nations somehow "belong here"?

This is actually two questions. Yes, I believe that anybody can just run in here and become a citizen or resident alien according to the laws of our land. People of every race do this all the time. Many also come here illegally. Do you wish to exclude some of the legal immigrants because of their race or national heritage? I agree that illegal aliens should be repatriated when they are discovered. As to recreating their country here - Every nationality brings something to the table. What is your beef with the culture and traditions of Hispanics? Do you get all worked up over St. Patricks Day too? How about Christmas? Groundhog Day?

Don't cry to me when the US falls even faller into the pit of decay than it already has.

I don't have a problem "excluding" people because of thier race or national heritage. I believe this nation should be open only to refugees and if it does involve immigrating here for economic reasons, then anything's fair.
It's a sovereign right of any nation to do so.

I get worked up over the fact that hispanics are being given special treatment (no matter how they twist it) as well as the fact that they are uniquely ethnocentric to the point of promoting their own brand of discrimination and violence.

 

[shootinstudent]

I think TheBluesMan and Lord_Nikon made great posts.

Hey Black_Iron,

Why don't you tell me how much time you've spent in Mexico and South America, such that you'd be competent to judge whether or not hispanic American citizens are culturally the same as those foreign citizens? It's pretty obvious to me you've spent no real amount of time either talking to American hispanics, or in Mexico. So on what basis did you form this opinion?

I think you know what happened to the Spanish in Florida and the Southwest. They got their behinds whooped, and the territory got annexed.

Did you think there was nothing there when it was annexed? If so, why are all the city and state names in Spanish? It was already built, and explored, by Spanish speaking folk. And the US specifically allowed Mexican citizens to become Americans after the Mexican war in the 1840's. So where did you get the idea that somehow those founding fathers didn't envision hispanics being a part of America? Please respond to that point specifically. I notice you dodge a lot of issues by ignoring them.

Spain is considered a Mediterrean country. Your modern illegal immigrants do not come from Europe nor are they culturally "Western".

Considered so by who? Spanish language came out of Northern Spain...ie, France. That's where the Christian Spanish states were during the Muslim occupation. Spanish is western European. If it's not, then you'll have a tough time explaining how french is western European, considering that the two are very similar.

Mexico is also a western country. Next time you hear some mexican folk music playing on your street...pick up a German music album to compare it to. It's virtually identical to traditional german songs, as there was a big german presence in Northern Mexico in the 1800's. German culture has had a big influence on Mexico, as has French and now American culture. Crime has always been a western european problem, and it's only recently that the major western european countries have become reasonably safe. So, where do you get your idea of mexican culture again?

My understanding of a "nation" is one that has unique identity, with recognized customs and whatnot that distinguish it from another nation.

Your understanding of a nation is clearly unamerican. You should pick up a copy of the US constitution and read it sometime. Tell me where "unique national character" and "racial homogeneity, to the exclusion of all foreign cultures" are in the Constitution. If you can't, I'd like you to admit that you disagree with the founding fathers about what kind of country we should live in. After all, as I pointed out to you above, the founding generation made a treaty that invited hundreds of thousands of hispanics to be American citizens. Does that sound like what you're saying, or not?

Just like English isn't the "official" language of the world but it widely been recognized to be so. English is for the most part culturally neutral

English is neutral, but Spanish, which spans as much territory and is spoken by nearly as many people, is not? Want to explain that one? I already listed other countries that Speak it, and I'll also mention the large french, italian, and german populations of spanish speaking people. How is spanish any less "neutral" than English? What do you think spanish language does that english doesn't?

Don't cry to me when the US falls even faller into the pit of decay than it already has.

Well, there have been hispanics in the US from the beginning...how do you explain all that growth over the past 200 years? There was almost NO border control along the southwest until after World War II. So how did the US fare so well, if hispanics (those here and immigrants) just destroy the place?

I get worked up over the fact that hispanics are being given special treatment (no matter how they twist it) as well as the fact that they are uniquely ethnocentric to the point of promoting their own brand of discrimination and violence.

Do me a favor: Name one service that hispanics receive in the US that whites do not. Then, show me a hispanic group that claims there should be no white people in the United States. That means showing some kind of proof, not just your claims.

 

[Black_Iron]

Shootinstudent

1. Arab populations speaking spanish: Morrocco, Tunisia, Egypt. There are also jews in Turkey (not arab, of course) who speak spanish exclusively.

May I ask where you got this information?

And even if you are correct, it hardly means that Spanish is an international language.

2. What percentage of those foreign born are illegal is beside the point. The point is that there are millions and millions more hispanics who are American born (and therefore citizens) than there are illegal immigrants. Go ahead and give me your idea of the rule for citizenship if you don't like this, and while you're at it let us know if you think the constitution is wrong.

Yes the constitution can be wrong, genius. Which is why the founding fathers instituted safeguards such as the ability to amend it.

Another thing is that these millions of hispanics are descended for the most part from illegals, and they don't belong here. Their citizenship should be revoked.

3. You called me a liar when you said "yeah and I'm a black/chinese hybrid," and you did again when you speculated on my ethnic origins.

Shootinstudent, it's more than obvious you're a liar. As if I wasn't keeping track of the threads you post in as well as the contents of the posts you make? Then you make up some baloney about being "Irish-American", which is the biggest load of bull I've ever heard. Did you "reveal" this as another underhanded attempt to recover ground in debate you are losing?

4. I didn't answer about Japan because it's irrelevant what the japanese do. Why on earth would you want to model your society after Japan? The japanese are hated for their racism and genocide in Asia during world war II. I think it's safe to say that's not a model for America.

1. It's not irrevelant, Japan has the second largest economy on this earth.
2. Japan, for a country with little resources, has transformed itself into an efficient modern metropolis that is low in crime and high in scientific and business achievements.
3. Japan has a policy of zero immigration. Period.
4. The Japanese have been a model for America, whether you like it or not, and quite frankly it's not the business of Hispanic invaders to decide what Americans should model themselves after.
5. What's a disaster for America (and the Japanese know this) is our unprecendent amount of immigrants, a large proportion of whom are Hispanic parasites that we neither need or want.

6. Japan looks out for itself and not for the interests of world elitists, political correctness, or corrupt third world countries.

5. The issue isn't "favoratism". You're advocating removing people from the country based on nothing other than race. Not birthplace, not actions, only race and ethnic heritage. If I'm wrong, then tell me what other standard you want to use...then explain why ALL hispanics still leave the US based on that.

Evidently, you're not thinking clearly. Another reason why I believe you are lying about your ethnicity, along with your poor grammar as well an "enthusiasm" for Bush that closely matches that of vested Hispanic interests. You have repeated yourself to the point of irrevelance.

When Hispanics emigrate here, they carry much more than their "race". Those who protect illegals because of their Hispanic status are the ones who advocate breaking our laws based on race and ethnic heritage.

 

[PSE]

can you imagine how much a box of rasin bran would cost if you had to paysomeone min wage, medical, dental, SS, disability then provide for sick leave federal holidays, breaks, lunch materity leave and 1.5 time over 40 hours just to pick the grapes?
be glad they are here. who else is gonna do that work?
YOU?

 

[Lord_Nikon]

First, the existence of poverty ensures that society's "dirty work" will be done. Every society has such work: physically dirty or dangerous, temporary, dead-end and underpaid, undignified and menial jobs. Society can fill these jobs by paying higher wages than for "clean" work, or it can force people who have no other choice to do the dirty work - and at low wages. In America, poverty functions to provide a low-wage labor pool that is willing - or rather, unable to be unwilling - to perform dirty work at low cost. Indeed, this function of the poor is so important that in some Southern states, welfare payments have been cut off during the summer months when the poor are needed to work in the fields. Moreover, much of the debate about the Negative Income Tax and the Family Assistance Plan [welfare programs] has concerned their impact on the work incentive, by which is actually meant the incentive of the poor to do the needed dirty work if the wages therefrom are no larger than the income grant. Many economic activities that involve dirty work depend on the poor for their existence: restaurants, hospitals, parts of the garment industry, and "truck farming," among others, could not persist in their present form without the poor.

Somehow, I think a respected sociologist makes more sense than Black_Iron.

Link

 

[Black_Iron]

Why don't you tell me how much time you've spent in Mexico and South America, such that you'd be competent to judge whether or not hispanic American citizens are culturally the same as those foreign citizens? It's pretty obvious to me you've spent no real amount of time either talking to American hispanics, or in Mexico. So on what basis did you form this opinion?

Being surrounded by illegals means I don't have to go Mexico to live in it. Shootinstudent, you have clearly lost track of what the discussion is about and you have proceeded to mindlessly rave about race and "american" hispanics. The illogic of your replies to my contentions are clearly astounding, verifying the fact that intellectually you are nothing more than a parrot on a broken record.

Did you think there was nothing there when it was annexed? If so, why are all the city and state names in Spanish? It was already built, and explored, by Spanish speaking folk. And the US specifically allowed Mexican citizens to become Americans after the Mexican war in the 1840's. So where did you get the idea that somehow those founding fathers didn't envision hispanics being a part of America? Please respond to that point specifically. I notice you dodge a lot of issues by ignoring them.

And these pathetic townships along with a few antiquated forts amounted to what, I may ask?

If you are going to make these claims, then let's see some documentation.

Your contention that the founding fathers somehow "envisioned" a future for hispanics is completely absurd. Please retake your history, or infact, look at your own date: 1840. Where were the founding fathers at that time?

Considered so by who? Spanish language came out of Northern Spain...ie, France. That's where the Christian Spanish states were during the Muslim occupation. Spanish is western European. If it's not, then you'll have a tough time explaining how french is western European, considering that the two are very similar.

The fact that you consider Moorish influenced Spain and France to be similar speaks for your ignorance. Spanish is a language with Latin and Arabic roots. I know Spanish, I've studied for it three years.

Mexico is also a western country. Next time you hear some mexican folk music playing on your street...pick up a German music album to compare it to. It's virtually identical to traditional german songs, as there was a big german presence in Northern Mexico in the 1800's. German culture has had a big influence on Mexico, as has French and now American culture. Crime has always been a western european problem, and it's only recently that the major western european countries have become reasonably safe. So, where do you get your idea of mexican culture again?

Just exactly what did Mexico contribute to Western Civilization? Where are it's philosophers, mathematicians, and scientists? It's one pile of bull after another. I'm sure any superior culture would have an influence on primitive Mexico.

If you think crime is a "Western European problem" you know nothing of either Western Europe (the crime is an immigrant phenomenon) or Mexico, which is just as crime riddled and corrupt as any Third World nation.

None of your rants, even if assuming they were true, are relevant to the fact that illegals clearly do not belong here, and that the Hispanics have been receiving treatment that is unprecendented in modern American history.

Your understanding of a nation is clearly unamerican. You should pick up a copy of the US constitution and read it sometime. Tell me where "unique national character" and "racial homogeneity, to the exclusion of all foreign cultures" are in the Constitution. If you can't, I'd like you to admit that you disagree with the founding fathers about what kind of country we should live in. After all, as I pointed out to you above, the founding generation made a treaty that invited hundreds of thousands of hispanics to be American citizens. Does that sound like what you're saying, or not?

The Const. gives us the freedom to do exactly just that.

Do you even know what the Constitution is?

Why you continue to invoke the Founding Fathers in such an erroneous manner is beyond me.

BTW, you're not going to impress anyone with your recent "un-American" (used by La Raza advocates) vitriol. It reeks of thought control, a proud tradition inspired by lefties when they are clearly marginalized to the point of ridicule. Plus, it's not something Hispanics have the authority to comment on.

Your idea of "American" is not American, it's one-world order globalist trash. America is not a dumping ground for failed countries.

You continue to use your warped idea of the Constitution to force your absurd agenda down our throats, your motives and intentions are as clear as day.

English is neutral, but Spanish, which spans as much territory and is spoken by nearly as many people, is not? Want to explain that one? I already listed other countries that Speak it, and I'll also mention the large french, italian, and german populations of spanish speaking people. How is spanish any less "neutral" than English? What do you think spanish language does that english doesn't?

Nations that speak English are much more relevant and important to the advancement of future progress. Science, business, etc., are all conducted with English as a neutral medium. Hence the reason for its internationalization. If anything, the children should be learning languages such as Japanese, French, and German whereas the countries that speak it are clearly relevant to the United States. The Latin American countries are a problem that we can't get enough of.

Are you aware of the fact that you just put Spanish on the same level as English in terms of global prominence? Spanish is as neutral as Korean. There is no logical reason why Chinese should learn Spanish; if they want to develop as a nation, they will communicate in the language of those with the power to make it happen.

Do you support English and Arabic as the two exclusively official languages of the U.S., and if not, then why?

Spanish is the language of the failed remnants of a colonial empire and a weak nation that nobody of relevance could care about. Hispanic culture is very much a part of the language. To adopt Spanish in the face of all the other ethnic groups is favoritism and an acknowledgment that they are somehow more welcome than any other group, which is false. In fact, they are probably more detested than any other group.

So just admit that you're clearly biased in favor of Spanish and Hispanics.

Well, there have been hispanics in the US from the beginning...how do you explain all that growth over the past 200 years? There was almost NO border control along the southwest until after World War II. So how did the US fare so well, if hispanics (those here and immigrants) just destroy the place?

Just look at the places where large numbers of them squat. Los Angeles, etc. Look at thier crime rates. Look at the prison population.

The growth occured because of illegal immigration. America doesn't need or want this excess that belongs and is the responsibility of other nations.

Do me a favor: Name one service that hispanics receive in the US that whites do not. Then, show me a hispanic group that claims there should be no white people in the United States. That means showing some kind of proof, not just your claims.

Preferential treatment in immigration, which is fueled by people like you, unless you are completely blind to your own prejudice while you harp on about only the "prejudice" that puts hispanics at a disadvantage.

 

[dasmi]

can you imagine how much a box of rasin bran would cost if you had to paysomeone min wage, medical, dental, SS, disability then provide for sick leave federal holidays, breaks, lunch materity leave and 1.5 time over 40 hours just to pick the grapes?
be glad they are here. who else is gonna do that work?
YOU?

And how much do we pay in other ways to cover free education, healthcare, etc for illegals? We ARE paying for all that stuff, we just don't realize it.

 

[Black_Iron]

can you imagine how much a box of rasin bran would cost if you had to paysomeone min wage, medical, dental, SS, disability then provide for sick leave federal holidays, breaks, lunch materity leave and 1.5 time over 40 hours just to pick the grapes?
be glad they are here. who else is gonna do that work?
YOU?

Your problem is with unions. Guess what? Do you think that these people will be employed in industries such as food where the requirement is unionization? If they are, they are no different from any other union member. BTW, much of this takes place in an automated factory. The mexicans employ themselves usually in low-grade construction and home repair, and even then they are not exactly either trustworthy(are you going to trust someone who is unlicensed, who a professional or vocational organization has no oversight over etc.,) or "cheap".


Lord Nikon

If you believe the tripe of "sociologists" and other psuedoscience practitioners, then you clearly have no sense whatsoever.

First, the existence of poverty ensures that society's "dirty work" will be done.

Does this hold up at all for countries like Africa, India, Bangladesh, and Latin America, at the depths of poverty? They have plenty of poverty, don't they?

Every society has such work: physically dirty or dangerous, temporary, dead-end and underpaid, undignified and menial jobs. Society can fill these jobs by paying higher wages than for "clean" work, or it can force people who have no other choice to do the dirty work - and at low wages.

Is working at McDonalds or a supermarket "physically dirty or dangerous"? Should this nation overlook what happens to be clear violations of labor law, because "Mexicans" do it? How many more laws should we break for the corrupt desires of an elite few?

Unfortunately, this author has neglected the "hidden costs" of immigration which are subsidized by a government that pandered to them as well as big business.

And in what way does this support illegal immigration?

In America, poverty functions to provide a low-wage labor pool that is willing - or rather, unable to be unwilling - to perform dirty work at low cost. Indeed, this function of the poor is so important that in some Southern states, welfare payments have been cut off during the summer months when the poor are needed to work in the fields.

Does this include American-born Mexican children?

I wonder if Lord-Nikon let pseudo-Marxist "intellectualism" take his brain for a spin?

His confusion of "poverty" with what is actually unskilled labor speaks what for his objectivity?

People can tolerate "low wages" only as long as the requisite standard of living is high (not impoverished), a far cry from his assertion that "poverty" is somehow vital for this.

Moreover, much of the debate about the Negative Income Tax and the Family Assistance Plan [welfare programs] has concerned their impact on the work incentive, by which is actually meant the incentive of the poor to do the needed dirty work if the wages therefrom are no larger than the income grant. Many economic activities that involve dirty work depend on the poor for their existence: restaurants, hospitals, parts of the garment industry, and "truck farming," among others, could not persist in their present form without the poor.

If you think people will do dirty and dangerous work just because of a
marginal wage increase, then you need to take an economics class.

Nowhere do I see this author making a case for illegal immigration.

Nowhere do I see any indication that massive amounts of Mexicans are "needed" to do this; the only reason employers have been preferring them is because of their lack of unionization and the fact that they are outside the system and therefore can be abused. (Not that I care, I don't want them period)

 

[Lord_Nikon]

I'm sure any superior culture would have an influence on primitive Mexico.

Wow. Superior cultures. Where have I heard that before...

Wait... I think I see something on his shirt... is that the Iron Cross?

His confusion of "poverty" with what is actually unskilled labor speaks what for his objectivity?

Illegal immigrants serve all of the uses of poverty, mostly as a result of it being unskilled labor.

Does this hold up at all for countries like Africa, India, Bangladesh, and Latin America, at the depths of poverty? They have plenty of poverty, don't they?

They are impoverished relative to us. The point (if you had bothered to read the article) was that every society needs a class that is relatively worse off than the rest.

 

[Black_Iron]

Lord_Nikon

Would you like to take your politically-correct-while-factually-incorrect tripe to Mexico or wherever and get a first hand experience?

I really wonder what you're going to prove by posting an image of Hitler anytime you hear something that you don't approve of? Maybe it relieves you of the "hard work" of independent thought.

Illegal immigrants serve all of the uses of poverty, mostly as a result of it being unskilled labor.

Can you explain to me what "serve all the uses of poverty" means and why a group that facilitates this is necessary?

 

[shaggy]

Yes the constitution can be wrong, genius.

Shootinstudent, it's more than obvious you're a liar.

...you make up some baloney about being "Irish-American", which is the biggest load of bull I've ever heard. Did you "reveal" this as another underhanded attempt to recover ground...

Wow, such civility BI.

Another thing is that these millions of hispanics are descended for the most part from illegals, and they don't belong here. Their citizenship should be revoked.

If they were born here, they ARE by law, American citizens. So then you support the idea that arbitrary and capricious denials of due process to American citizens, as well as the administration of ex post facto laws are perfectly acceptable? Gee, I wonder wht the Founding Fathers would think of that?

Shootinstudent, it's more than obvious you're a liar. As if I wasn't keeping track of the threads you post in as well as the contents of the posts you make? Then you make up some baloney about being "Irish-American", which is the biggest load of bull I've ever heard. Did you "reveal" this as another underhanded attempt to recover ground in debate you are losing?

So now that you've called him a liar with respect to his heritage, why don't you post some proof of your assertion. Otherwise you're just making yourself look stupid.

1. It's not irrevelant, Japan has the second largest economy on this earth.

And who has the first?

and quite frankly it's not the business of Hispanic invaders to decide what Americans should model themselves after.

But if those Hispanics are legal US citizens, then they have as much right to decide what Americans should model themselves after as YOU...assuming you are actually a US citizen and not some foreign invader yourself.

What's a disaster for America (and the Japanese know this) is our unprecendent amount of immigrants, a large proportion of whom are Hispanic parasites that we neither need or want.

Speak for yourself. You and your inane ideas are not the arbiters of what the US wants or needs. Nevertheless, as Lord Nikon pointed out, we DOin fact need a segment of these people in our society. I know numerous American businesses that rely heavily on cheap immigrant labor to stay in business and remain profitable. In fact, with regard to most of the illegal immigrants in the US, they are performing menial labor for below minimum wage. Not really a threat to our citizens...unless you are one of those poor folks who can't even land a job at McDonalds (so are you?)

Japan look out for itself and not for the interests of world elitists, political correctness, or corrupt third world countries.

Yes, I'm sure thats why the Japanese have soldiers in Iraq.

Evidently, you're not thinking clearly. Another reason why I believe you are lying about your ethnicity, along with your poor grammar ...

Personally, I don't think I've noticed any grammatical errors by ShootinStudent. Maybe you'd like to point them out so we can be sure you're not the liar you accuse him of being?

When Hispanics emigrate here, they carry much more than their "race".

Of course they do. Like every race or nationality than comes to America, they bring a little of their own culture; which is part of what makes America strong. But to insinuate that all Hispanics bring to this country is crime and deterioration is simply assinine.

 

[Lord_Nikon]

By posting the image of Hitler, I was pointing out your false sense of superiority over other races. I figured maybe you would understand an argument on your own level. And if you would bother to read the article, you would understand what I mean by uses of poverty.

P.S. Shaggy, thanks for reading the article.

 

[shaggy]

By posting the image of Hitler, I was pointing out your false sense of superiority over other races. I figured maybe you would understand an argument on your own level.

Don't worry Lord_Nikon, most of us with an ounce of common sense understood the analogy. Good point, BTW.