Mexican government on how to sneak across our border

[Black_Iron]

What is a "hispanic apologist"?

In general someone who adamantly defends "hispanic" interests, distorts and twists issues relating to hispanics, tries to lecture Americans on how we should live in OUR country, etc.

What I am is an American who believes in gun rights. I also believe that your citizenship and rights in America should not be based on skin color or ancestry. The hispanic community is mostly pro family values, pro-self sufficiency, and even pro-gun, and so I think other Americans who share those values (especially pro gun!) should make every effort to gather the support of hispanic Americans. That isn't going to happen by implying that "hispanics need apologists", or that "hispanic culture is evil."

What is that supposed to mean? That you are an "american"? The fact is that you are hispanic is written all over this thread.

Second, why is what you and millions of other Hispanics believe relevant to those who live and have built this nation? Is America the equivalent of a latrine hole that all you third-worlders can urinate in for free? You realize that WE are paying for you immigrants who populate our country, threaten our people, usurp our culture, etc.?

The Hispanic community is Democratic. That is just a fact, Senor.

If you want to spread Hispanic culture, you have plenty of nations South of our Border to do it. Just because your countries are plainly backward doesn't give you the right to flood us completely, especially when a majority of you have done so with little regard for our laws.

I believe that if you want to immigrate to this country, then you do so following all of the laws enacted by the Citizens of this country.

I also believe that your citizenship and rights in America should not be based on skin color or ancestry.

Please tell that to Jorge Arbusto and Vicente Fox of Mexico as well as La Raza, and MechA, etc.

Illegals have no rights to citizenship, and pretty soon, the children of illegals won't get it either.

There were both Mecha and La Raza groups at every school I've ever attended, so I know a bit about them. They are most certainly racially charged groups, but they aren't pro-Mexican; they call themselves Chicano, and most (if you happen to know any) you will find are offended when people refer to them as Mexican. They do not consider themselves Mexicans, and they're mostly comprised of American college students. The fact that they have darker skin tones and radical politics does not mean they are somehow less American.

I really don't understand why you keep calling them "American". Simply sneaking into this country and living here does not make anybody an "American". If they are offended, they can LEAVE; their problems are not the business of this nation.

On the other hand, your average Jose illegal immigrant does not believe he is racially superior to whites, nor does he believe that American culture is flawed and evil. He is also ashamed to be out of work, as it's a huge disgrace in Mexican culture to not provide for one's family or self. You might want to take account of that stark difference between radical Chicano groups (who are virtually all American), and genuine immigrants from Mexico.

Radical Chicano groups get their ideology and influence not from America, chico. You are really in no position to state what vast majority of illegals believe, but the fact that they are trashing this nation and recreating Mexico everywhere they go, the fact that they have no magic right to live here, means they must GO.

Now, the reason I mentioned immigration in the last part is that the poorest Mexicans, who take the jobs you seem to agree need to be filled, have absolutely no chance of making it through the Visa process. The forms, fees, and travel expenses are too time consuming and difficult for most, which is of course why they end up risking their lives by walking through a desert to get to the USA.

We don't need Mexicans or any illegal group. There are plenty of unemployed people who can easily fulfill this contrived "need", and the majority of these aliens don't pay taxes, at least not to the USA but to corrupt Vicente. The only people who spread this crap about us "needing" these people are the typical elitist and clueless liberal groups, corporations who want cheap labor, and thier cronies in the useless American gov't. We didn't need Mexicans then at the founding of this nation and we didn't need them now.

The fact that Mexicans can sneak into this country and use all our resources at the expense of our taxpayers is outrageous. Not to mention the general deterioration that occurs in areas where they populate.

Everyone here I think agrees that illegal immigration has to be prevented, but the problem, Black_Iron, is that you seem to be mistaking hispanics who are Americans (the majority of hispanics in the US) for illegal immigrants, and you're further mistaking worker immigration as some kind of plot to take over the US. As I pointed out before, and you didn't dispute, it's not like Spanish culture in the Southwest and west is a new thing. There is no period since the 1700's when there wasn't Spanish culture in these areas, so that's old news.

The majority of "hispanics" (a census term) are here illegally, and have streamed into this nation by the millions. The federal government is practically doing nothing about this. The fact that ignorant Mexican peons that stream into this country and recreate their own pestholes is no mistake on someone who has observed and tracked this phenomenon for years.

I don't want Spanish being a de-facto second language of this country. If you think the Mexicans aren't going to institute thier holidays, language, and culture, you need to wake up.

And I'm of the opinion that Hispanics shouldn't be here in the first place. This is not their country.

What is it exactly that you have against hispanic presence in the Southwest? Do you think that to be hispanic, you cannot be American? If so, what ancestry makes one American?

Why is there a hispanic presence in the first place?

This is not about some bogus "we're all American" left-wing garbage the media has spread for years. This is about the Hispanic invasion of this country for the sake of our taxpayers enriching this majority of needless parasites. America is not some "special" nation where we have to kiss the behind of the foriegners who have no respect for us in there countries or in places where they decide to sit and reap welfare benefits.

 

[shootinstudent]

The fact is that you are hispanic is written all over this thread.

You also accused George Bush of being a hispanic sympathizer. Does that mean that George Bush is hispanic?

Second, why is what you and millions of other Hispanics believe relevant to those who live and have built this nation?

There are millions of hispanic-American citizens whose views are relevant both because they're american and because they have the right to vote as Americans. If you mean the southwest and west specifically, there have been hispanics there since it became U.S. Territory. The Treaty of Guadalupe Hidalgo gave all former Mexican citizens living in the newly conquered territory US citizenship. So, again, I'm not sure where you get the idea that somehow hispanic influence in the US is a new thing. It's been there as long as the United States has been in the Southwest and West, and that sure didn't hold up the progress up until now.

The majority of "hispanics" (a census term) are here illegally, and have streamed into this nation by the millions.

This is patently false. You need to recheck the number of illegal immigrants versus hispanic citizens. There are more hispanic americans than illegal immigrants of all nationalities combined. Not even close.

I don't want Spanish being a de-facto second language of this country. If you think the Mexicans aren't going to institute thier holidays, language, and culture, you need to wake up.

Well, unfortunately America is not founded on "what black iron wants." Americans can do whatever they want. If I want to celebrate the civil war and perform KKK rituals, I'm allowed. Do you believe the government should mandate these kinds of things?

And I'm of the opinion that Hispanics shouldn't be here in the first place. This is not their country.

That's what I think this all boils down to. You believe that citizenship should be based on race, correct? Myself, I'm a constitutionalist. The constitution is clear: if you are born in America, you are a citizen. Do you respect the US constitution?

Part of the reason otherwise conservative hispanic americans tend towards democrats is that there are people like you, Black_Iron, in the conservative wings who cannot understand the concept of race-neutral citizenship. There's another reason I'm glad Bush is the man in charge right now, as he recognizes the need to include people in his party based on values and shared ideals, not race. Pushing voters away because you don't like the skin color of immigrants who look similar to Americans of hispanic descent is just plain silly, if what you want is to promote a political cause other than racism.

 

[TheBluesMan]

And I'm of the opinion that Hispanics shouldn't be here in the first place. This is not their country.

Whose country is it then, BI?

Answer that and then tell me how you belong here under the terms you define.

 

[Lord_Nikon]

TheBluesMan has it here, I think.

 

[43061]

Shootinstudent,

Everything in this country is being affected by language! I’m not speaking of Spanish speaking people who cost us millions of dollars a year in additional publishing costs so they understand their entitlements to government programs. I’m speaking of the English speaking people hired by our government who believe wording is crucial to shaping public opinion. Saying something the right way sways voters, and said the wrong way turns voters off.

More people are willing to pay more taxes to reduce crime than are willing to pay additional taxes to improve law enforcement. Subtle differences in wording have a much larger impact on the outcomes of our future than most people would recognize.

Tax cut or tax relief; Inheritance tax or death tax; Undocumented worker, imigrant or illegal alien? The liberal media and our government know exactly which words they need to use to make us accept their vision of our future.

We just spent ten years with an assault weapons ban we all know was worded to make it look like the government was doing something to reduce rising crime rates. It reduced the number of people defending their homes with bayonets attached to their assault rifles and that’s about all it did.

When you have to command other family members to “fix bayonets” something has seriously gone wrong with your home defense plan.

One more thing, if you check, you will find that you do not have to be “Born in America” to be protected by our Constitution. You only need to be in the country. Visit an INS/BICE detention facility sometime, you will find more people that understand what our Constitution means than you will find in your local high school.

 

[shootinstudent]

Interesting points, 43061. I agree that wording is important, and that it's often twisted. I'm not sure how that relates to letting people choose which language they should speak, though. And I do support markings and printings in more than one language, because it's silly to not do it when you know a significant number of people that you want to inform about whatever subject it is that's on the paper/sign/notice will not understand in just english.

I sure do agree that the assault weapons ban was 100 percent hype. And, yes, I'm aware that constitutional protections flow to non-citizens, but citizenship is what we were talking about. I suspect you're right though, as people who are preparing for naturalization actually have to learn about our constitution and laws. It's a real shame that so many don't know the basics of their own government.

 

[43061]

Since I included the comment about the paperwork within my reply; which didn’t have anything to do with anything really, and since you have now replied to that comment, I’ll share a little more about my own family.

They are German, born in Germany and are resident aliens (Green card holders). They speak German in the house and English outside the house. They know first hand how difficult and expensive the process of getting a green card is, but did it anyway. There aren’t too many government forms printed in German. They didn't come here expecting our government to provide them with forms printed in their own language.

Since being here the past two years my wife has had to test and test and test some more to prove she can use the English language well enough to pass her nursing exams. She is just now getting ready to take an exam which costs $300 and is in Chicago that will make her a LPN. She then has to take another test to get her RN status back.

 

[shootinstudent]

Congratulations to your family on going through the process. And, it's a good thing they didn't expect documents in german, because there aren't enough german speakers to justify the practice. That is not the case with Spanish, which has been a common language in the west and southwest since those areas became U.S. territory. Most of the state and city names are still in Spanish. I don't think it's unreasonable at all to print information in a second language when you know that there are millions of people who speak that language in the country. If there were only a few discrete spanish speaking areas, I'd say otherwise, but as it stands I see no problem having a document in spanish and english. It probably helps tourism as well, considering that spanish is the second most spoken language worldwide, right behind english.

Interesting note: I went to school with some germans who spoke better spanish than they did english. Spanish forms can be a plus for more than just mexicans.

 

[43061]

Most Europeans speak more than one language, they start foreign languages in grade school and English is usually a required subject. My wife speaks German, French, and English.

 

[shootinstudent]

I am reading what you are saying. The problem is that you're saying a new thing every time.

The U.S. has no language required by law, none. They decided to conduct government in english at the time; scan the constitution and the federal statutes. You will not find any requirement to speak english.

As for the various immigrant groups, yes, many of them did continue to speak their own languages for a generation or two and that's the norm with Spanish speaking peoples also. That's why there are italian and hebrew terms floating all over new york, and that's also why if you go through the hill country in Texas you will find lots of places with german terms scattered about. Absolutely nothing unusual about spanish speaking people in that regard; after a generation is US born, just like other nationalities, they speak english.

The reason spanish gets on to documents is that there are many, many more spanish speaking immigrants and first generation spanish speakers than there are of other language groups. Any notice or information worth printing, is worth having people know. Now when you consider the fact that not just people from Mexico speak spanish, and that there are a large number of spanish speakers in the US, it makes sense to print in spanish too. In 20 years, that may not be the case. It might be more sensible to print in some other language by that time. But this is now.

Given all that, do you honestly feel like you're bending over backwards by having to see spanish written alongside english in some places?

 

[TheBluesMan]

I'm still waiting for a reply, Black_Iron...

 

[longeyes]

The U.S. has no language required by law, none. They decided to conduct government in english at the time; scan the constitution and the federal statutes. You will not find any requirement to speak english.

The political life of our nation was and is conducted in English. Our legal system is English-based, its linguistic nuances parsed in English. Our seminal documents are in English. Yes, language matters. Language is the soul of a nation, along with being its glue.

You want other languages? Fine. I know several. But English ought, by right and by reason, to be our official tongue. If people don't care enough to speak the common tongue they shouldn't be here.

Ponder this a bit, Shootinstudent.

 

[shootinstudent]

Longeyes,

I agree that language is important. I never claimed it was not; what I did claim was that it's not required by any law. Just as much as I don't think you should be required to speak english if you don't want to, no one is required to understand other than english. The government and courts work in english, and I see no threat to that custom whatsoever.

I also think you're assuming a lot about people who cannot speak english that reside in the US. I can't imagine any possible scenario whereby you could believe that people do not speak english because they don't want to. Your life in the US is much, much easier if you speak english. Better jobs are available, you have an easier time in all public places, and you will find more people able to speak with. There is more than enough incentive to speak english as things stand.

I think it's more than fair to presume that people who don't speak english do so because they can't, not because they don't want to. One thing I'm worried about is the US becoming a nation like France, where even tourists are treated with rudeness for not being able to speak the language with a proper accent. When I travel abroad, I appreciate and think it entirely reasonable if someone who speaks my language is willing to help. I have no problem returning the favor when I meet people who have a trouble with our most common language here in the US.

 

[FirstFreedom]

Re the thread drift of English language

This is a huge burr under my saddle:

1. If there is not a law that English is the official language, there should be.

2. Language is indeed a societal glue, and lack of a common language breeds contempt and prejudice, and thus is not good for the country. English is the language; let's stick with it.

3. I have ZERO problem with *private companies* offering signs and forms and such in multiple languages.

4. I have an EXTRAORDINARILY HUGE problem with *any government entity* using our tax dollars to print signs/forms in multiple languages. If you were born here, you are a citizen, and thus have access to public schools, so there no excuse for not knowing the language (assuming that we force schools to do the correct thing and teach in English). If you are legal immigrant seeking citizenship, then you need to learn English before immigrating. Take an ESL class before emigrating. If you don't, then you'll just have to tough it out and bootstrap yourself when you get here. Many did this in the 1800s and early 1900s, and with hard work, made it just fine. Ditto if you are here on a work or student visa. If you are an illegal immigrant, then you should be deported so it doesn't matter what langauge you speak, but in any event, we should not spend TAX MONEY catering to illegal immigrants. See #1 above.

5. The fact is that the REASON that citizens here don't learn English is because their lazy assed parents don't bother to try to speak it at home, and/or the schools they are attending teach the materials in the foreign language. BOTH of which only serve to harm the children, who later become adults, and BOTH of which must be changed - this will require some growing pains, but it won't change unless there's incentive to change. And with each new sign or form added by a gov't agency, there becomes less and less of an incentive to learn the language of our land and governments. No there is not enough of an incentive, nor will there be enough of an incentive until all gov't documents are in English, and all schools teach all materials in English (with the obvious exception of teaching of foreign languages). The failure by our gov't to mandate English is ONLY serving to harm ethnic minorities in the long run, by keeping them out of many many jobs. It also harms society in general by augmenting/causing prejudice and racism.

 

[shootinstudent]

1. There isn't, and requiring english to be spoken would sure put a damper on anyone who wished to practice speaking a language outside a classroom, and it'd also be kind of silly to either enforce it against diplomats and tourists or to just ignore it in those cases. Then what would the point of the law be?

2. Lack of a common language only breeds prejudice if people are already of the idea that it's somehow offensive to hear another language. There's no reason why it inherently must breed contempt. And, most people in the US do speak english, so it's not really an issue.

3. If you think other languages cause contempt and prejudice, why are you okay with private companies doing it?

4. This is only a valid point if you assume number 2 is true. There is no reason to assume number 2 is true. As a historical note, there were huge non-english speaking communities in the US in the 1800's and early 1900's, and not being able to communicate with them created all kinds of problems, legal and social. When you know there are lots of people in your country who do not speak english, and you want them to do certain things, you need to let them know what to do. That's not a "help the immigrant" issue, that's a common sense policy issue. If you don't want spanish speakers not knowing the road signs, give them papers that say what the signs are in Spanish. It's easy to say "yeah, they shouldn't be here!", but they are, and as long as they are, it will do no one any good, nor further any cause, to not give them information you think the public needs to know. That's not "catering" anymore than the government is "catering" to criminals by telling them what they're charged with, or "catering" to commuters by posting traffic regulations.

5. That's an assertion that's entirely false. If you have some evidence to prove it's all "laziness" rather than just simply NOT being able to learn the language quickly, I'd like to see it. Sure haven't seen any evidence of that so far. On top of that, you didn't mention the reasons I listed above as to what incentives there are to speak english already. Presuming "laziness" in light of those incentives is contradictory. You yourself pointed that out; do you think immigrants don't notice that their opportunities are limited without English? Do you think immigrants just aren't interested in making more money? If not, please explain how it is you can recognize that there's an obvious benefit to speaking english, yet claim that some immigrants simply do not want to speak it.

 

[FirstFreedom]

No

There isn't, and requiring english to be spoken would sure put a damper on anyone who wished to practice speaking a language outside a classroom, and it'd also be kind of silly to either enforce it against diplomats and tourists or to just ignore it in those cases. Then what would the point of the law be?

No, you misunderstand. Having a law making English the "official language" does not in any way mandate it be spoken at any place, and thus such enforcement of it as you describe could not/would not occur. You can speak pig latin in your home and elsewhere. The law making it the official language would prohibit any and all gov'ts at any level from conducting business in any language but English. That's all.

Lack of a common language only breeds prejudice if people are already of the idea that it's somehow offensive to hear another language. There's no reason why it inherently must breed contempt. And, most people in the US do speak english, so it's not really an issue.

I see what you're saying and it would be a valid point, if we ignored reality. You're confusing a normative judgment with valuative judgment. I.e. You're talking about how things "ought" to be in a perfect world, not how they really are. Communism "ought to" have worked. But it didn't because people act in their own self-interest, not that of their fellow man. Having multiple languages "ought not to" breed contempt and prejudice. BUT THE FACT IS THAT IT *DOES* breed contempt and prejudice. You're not gonna change that fundamental fact with all the hoping and praying in the world. So there IS a reason why it inherently must breed contempt, and that is a deeply held primitive instinct.

If you think other languages cause contempt and prejudice, why are you okay with private companies doing it?

Because they're private companies; they can do whatever the hell they want, as long as they don't harm me. Because they're not spending MY TAX MONEY to do it. If I don't like the fact that they're putting up signs in spanish, I can (and will) simply boycott them.

This is only a valid point if you assume number 2 is true.

Right. And number 2 is true. Se above.

As a historical note, there were huge non-english speaking communities in the US in the 1800's and early 1900's, and not being able to communicate with them created all kinds of problems, legal and social.

Ummm, ya, thanks for helping me prove my points.

If you don't want spanish speakers not knowing the road signs, give them papers that say what the signs are in Spanish.

No, they will understand the universal symbol language on the sign, or english on the sign, or they will be held liable for the wrecks they cause. Which is why forced liability insurance IS a good idea.

It's easy to say "yeah, they shouldn't be here!", but they are,

Yes, spanish speakers ARE here. And from here, we can go one of two ways - adopt laws/policies that encourage people to learn english (which helps society a little, by minimizing conflict/prejudice, and helps the ethnic minority in question A LOT, by opening up a myriad of economic doors for them). Spanish speakers getting hosed on an issue because they don't know the langauge will quickly cause them to start learning the language and teaching it to each other amongst themselves. There will be growing pains in the SHORT RUN, but it's for the best in the LONG RUN, for all involved. Or, we go in the opposite direaction and adopt policies that DON'T encourage people to learn english, i.e. print more and more gov't signs/documents in other languages, in which case the problems are exacerbated, not solved.

That's not "catering" anymore than the government is "catering" to criminals by telling them what they're charged with, or "catering" to commuters by posting traffic regulations.

Say what? ALL commuters need signs. The signs don't favor any ONE class of commuters. False analogy. Redundant signs in spanish DO favor or cater to ONE class of sign readers: those that know spanish, but do not know English. Why should we spend money catering to them when doing so is:

a) REALLY bad for them in the long run; and
b) Kinda bad for society in the short and long run.

It's ONLY *good* for them in the short run. But that's short sighted policies at work.

That's an assertion that's entirely false. If you have some evidence to prove it's all "laziness" rather than just simply NOT being able to learn the language quickly, I'd like to see it.

I said it's both. We've actually got schools that teach kids their grade school curriculum in Spanish! That's the first thing that must be nipped squarely in the bud. But secondly, how to change the parents that are too lazy to learn and speak english in the household, for the benefit of their children? Well, one way is - voila - make ALL gov't documents in english only. This gives them INCENTIVE to do it for both themselves and their children. It's amazing what people can accomplish when given an INCENTIVE to do something. That is why capitalism prevailed over communism. So why are we making policies that offer a DISincentive by making gov't documents in redundant form in other languages? It's only going to hurt those minorities.

You yourself pointed that out; do you think immigrants don't notice that their opportunities are limited without English?

Yes, they notice, and of course they want to make money. So they DO in fact already have a strong incentive to learn english. But it ain't strong enough, and why weaken it at all? If mom and dad work in jobs that don't require them to speak english in their community in order to make money, albeit lower paying jobs, then as parents they go into cruise mode and don't bother to speak english in the home, in order to help their children become fluent in the language. This is not always going to limit the children, if they are bright and apply themselves and learn english in school and elsewhere. BUT if the damn school itself also does not teach in english, then the kid is likely to never learn it and limit his/herself to that same old rut as the parents were in, which limits their opportunities.

If not, please explain how it is you can recognize that there's an obvious benefit to speaking english, yet claim that some immigrants simply do not want to speak it.

Some are lazy, some are not. Why not give an incentive to the "marginal" ones, to learn english?

 

[shootinstudent]

Ummm, ya, thanks for helping me prove my points.

What point did that prove? I mentioned it to show how silly it is to ignore large immigrant populations. That was the problem. The fact that immigratns are there in the first place is a different issue. Refusing to communicate with immigrants will not make fewer immigrants come, and the sound of hungarian and italian wasn't what created the problem. When people are living or travelling somewhere, there are things it makes good policy sense to tell them. Can you imagine what world travel would be like if you went to a country where no government documents or signs were printed in english? See my france example above.

So there IS a reason why it inherently must breed contempt, and that is a deeply held primitive instinct.

What your saying is that other languages breed contempt because they do. I'm saying they do not. There's also a mountain of evidence that it's not "deeply held" or "primitive"; people have been living in societies with different languages for thousands of years without language becoming a problem. The only time language tends to become a problem is when one group hates the other group for what it is, not because of the sound of its language. Here's an example: That is why you see Turks trying to stamp out Kurdish languages, but having no problem with the European languages that are becoming common in Turkey. So, I'll repeat the point: there is no necessary reason why just the sound of another language should breed contempt. I'll take some evidence if you have it on that point, though.

Redundant signs in spanish DO favor or cater to ONE class of sign readers: those that know spanish, but do not know English.

Wait, how does that "favor" one group over the other? Both can read the sign just the same. Is your reading of a pamphlet in english impaired by duplicate print in Spanish? I'd even go so far as to say it helps English speakers to have Spanish speakers read the signs and pamphlets, also, because then you can be assured that the important information you bothered to print in the first place is getting to everyone.

It's amazing what people can accomplish when given an INCENTIVE to do something.

You already admitted there's a strong incentive to learn English in the United States. Most immigrants will naturally try to learn english, whether there are some pamphlets and signs in Spanish or not. So for most, your english only plan is unnecessary and would harm good-faith immigrants who are trying to learn english but can't understand it at the moment. Having basic information and signs in spanish isn't going to be a serious impediment to learning for people who actually want to learn the language, but it will help them obey the law and live efficiently in the meantime.

I agree with you on education, by the way, but the point of my agreement is not because of the principle, it's the policy. English education helps kids learn. Something you should note, though, is that the children of immigrants who are born in the United States virtually all speak english. It's tough to find a person who was born in America, of any ethnicity, who does not speak any english at all. There might be some mountain dwellers somewhere who don't, but with TV and radio, growing up in the US pretty much makes one an english speaker these days.

I like the fact that you've gone back from your claim that immigrants don't speak english because they're lazy, but I have to ask again: where's the evidence that there's any substantial number at all actually do this?

 

[Black_Iron]

You also accused George Bush of being a hispanic sympathizer. Does that mean that George Bush is hispanic?

Please tell me where I accused George Bush of being a "hispanic sympathizer". I don't remember making such a comment.

There are millions of hispanic-American citizens whose views are relevant both because they're american and because they have the right to vote as Americans. If you mean the southwest and west specifically, there have been hispanics there since it became U.S. Territory. The Treaty of Guadalupe Hidalgo gave all former Mexican citizens living in the newly conquered territory US citizenship. So, again, I'm not sure where you get the idea that somehow hispanic influence in the US is a new thing. It's been there as long as the United States has been in the Southwest and West, and that sure didn't hold up the progress up until now.

And by "American" you mean those who squat on this land? Simply occupying this country does not mean you and your ilk belong here. So don't cover it up with this faux "American" identity the left has constructed for you hypocrites who have enforced your culture and way of life on the rest of us, a precedent none of the immigrant groups of the recent past have breached.

This is patently false. You need to recheck the number of illegal immigrants versus hispanic citizens. There are more hispanic americans than illegal immigrants of all nationalities combined. Not even close.

Probably in 2050 when Hispanics multiply in larger and larger numbers.

There is no census data on illegal migrants, but these migrants are the ones fueling this rapid "growth" in Hispanics here simply to drain our resources as their own countries are miserable failures. Not only that, you seem to have an attitude that your culture is superior and that we need and/or want you here. This is patently false.

BlackIron:I don't want Spanish being a de-facto second language of this country. If you think the Mexicans aren't going to institute thier holidays, language, and culture, you need to wake up.

SIS:Well, unfortunately America is not founded on "what black iron wants." Americans can do whatever they want. If I want to celebrate the civil war and perform KKK rituals, I'm allowed. Do you believe the government should mandate these kinds of things?

Are you saying that Spanish should be the second language of this country, and are you saying that Spanish culture and holidays should be forcefully integrated into American public life?

It's not just me who doesn't want this, as you can see if you observe the attitude other forummers here have toward hispanics.

That's what I think this all boils down to. You believe that citizenship should be based on race, correct? Myself, I'm a constitutionalist. The constitution is clear: if you are born in America, you are a citizen. Do you respect the US constitution?

There are millions of Hispanics living and breeding here with or without citizenship.

Part of the reason otherwise conservative hispanic americans tend towards democrats is that there are people like you, Black_Iron, in the conservative wings who cannot understand the concept of race-neutral citizenship. There's another reason I'm glad Bush is the man in charge right now, as he recognizes the need to include people in his party based on values and shared ideals, not race. Pushing voters away because you don't like the skin color of immigrants who look similar to Americans of hispanic descent is just plain silly, if what you want is to promote a political cause other than racism.

Bush is a monster and a idiot because he lets millions of people who should be deported to be granted "amnesty", which is nothing more than sheer "I'm second to God" arrogance as well as elitist corruption where Arbusto is fully part of the circle of Mexican criminals who have destroyed that country. If you are a real "American", then you will recognize that illegals are in flagrant violation of American laws and the full resources of local, state, and the federal government should be used to get rid of them as well as defend the borders.

It's no secret that Hispanics are behind the "racial favoritism" of giving themselves special immigration priveleges. The majority of Hispanics do not share the values and ideals of the Republican party, and neither does Bushie boy.

The reason there are people like me is because there are hispanics who want America to be more hispanic or suffer the consequences. The fact that hispanics are conservative is a joke, just look at Loretta Sanchez. Dominicans and Puerto Ricans have always voted the Party of free handouts and anti-American nationalism. If hispanics vote democratic, an even better reason to remind them that their stay will be temporary.

 

[Black_Iron]

Whose country is it then, BI?

Answer that and then tell me how you belong here under the terms you define.

TheBluesMan, you cannot be that hopelessly deluded. My ancestors built this nation, and the creators of this nation as well as their descendants are the ones that obviously belong here, no?

They came from Western Europe, and establishedits traditions and civilization, as well as adopting English to be the spoken language.

Do you think Hispanics belong here for some odd reason? Given the fact that they have little respect for this country or its people? Don't they have 20 or so countries where they orginially came from?

Do you believe that anybody can just run in here because their countries are a failure and recreate that country here?

SIS

I agree that language is important. I never claimed it was not; what I did claim was that it's not required by any law.

Neither is adopting Spanish, but public institutions have been forced to by pandering to the "illegal" lobby.

BTW, a good percentage of people outside the US in the European and even East (China, Japan, etc.) and South Asian(India) nations can speak English. English is an international language. The fact that Hispanics are somehow "immune" to all this speaks tremendously about their arrogance.

Also there are plenty of non-white ethnic groups who despise Hispanics as well. The Hispanics have consistently used race and ethnicity as an excuse, so why not use it against them?

You yourself pointed that out; do you think immigrants don't notice that their opportunities are limited without English?

That's why they vote Democratic to burden the American taxpayer even more with their parasitism and groveling for assistance, even though these are the nationals of other countries! God Bless the Republocratic party!

 

[shootinstudent]

LOL, Black_Iron, I hate to poke fun, but you might want to note that Spanish is a european language. Spain was a hapsburg-ruled state when it conquered the Americas, and the hapsburgs as we know...are Germanic. It's silly to draw that kind of cultural distinction. The United States is not western European anymore, and hasn't been for a long time. It is American. If you think we should be more like France and Germany, then you my friend are arguing for the wrong party.

Spanish is an international language, just like English. It's also spoken in Asia, the middle east, and throughout North and South America. It is the second most spoken language in the world, right behind English.

Again, Black_Iron, you are failing to discriminate between illegal immigrants and American citizens of hispanic descent. There are census numbers available, and here they are:

Hispanics in the US, 39.9 million. http://www.factmonster.com/spot/hhmcensus1.html

Number of people born in Mexico: 9.9 million. Same source.

That's 30 million hispanics who are American born versus less than ten million who are foreign born. Just like I said, it's not even close. Do you support throwing out 30 million Americans based on race alone?

Your answer to theBluesmans question was unclear. Do you believe that citizenship should be based on race? If so, do you think the constitution is wrong? I'd like to hear your view on the US constitution. If you admire our founders so much, you should support it, right?

As for there being "people like you", there are obviously fewer than there are who support my view, or voters would not support the printing of documents in spanish or toleration of hispanic culture. They do, and most politicians do. How do you explain that, if most people are with you?

So we can get your annoying assumptions about my "race" out of the way, I'm Irish American. Does that mean I shouldn't be a citizen, because I'm a member of a group that the founding fathers didn't really embrace? Or is skin color your whole basis for citizenship?