maestro pistolero
New member
I would like to know how the government justifies pointing AR15s at the heads of civilians over a pot bust. What is more dangerous, 33 pounds of marijuana, or pointing weapons at citizens.
Md: The Cheye Calvo raid...
- Thread starter hammer4nc
- Start date
Dumb question.
Why can police point weapons at civilians when there is no known threat?
I mean a civilian has to have a threat known to point unless a castle type doctrine law is established.
And without knocking what would happen if the mayor had a gun and shot at the plain clothed officers?
Why can police point weapons at civilians when there is no known threat?
I mean a civilian has to have a threat known to point unless a castle type doctrine law is established.
And without knocking what would happen if the mayor had a gun and shot at the plain clothed officers?
maestro pistolero
New member
This is what I am afraid may be inevitable. If according to Scalia, we have a right to immediate defense in the home, then what law would prevent one from shooting any unidentified intruder who displays a threat?
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So long as there is an insatiable demand for dope in the US someone is going to meet that demand. We have been playing this crazy and ineffective "war on drugs" game for 35 years with very little effect on the dope supply.
One of these days someone is going to kill a bunch of cops who break into the wrong house. Then there will be some serious thought given to the elimination of no knock searches.
One of these days someone is going to kill a bunch of cops who break into the wrong house. Then there will be some serious thought given to the elimination of no knock searches.
No there won't. To the politicians, the cops are expendable. The War on Drugs is all about money (especially "civil forfeiture".) Never get between a politician and money.
There was a case a few years ago where cops broke into the wrong house and the homeowner shot and killed one of 'em. He's on death row right now. Sorry, I can't remember the name.... [looking up the name] Cory Maye. Citizens are expendable too, I guess. Of course Cory is black, so that might have had something to do with his conviction.
The Calvo case is different though. The police screwed up and wrongly busted a politician, and (I assume) just to punish him they shot his dogs, AND held him prisoner for a couple of hours like he was a common [insert race here] man or something. They're not gonna be able to cover this one up.
(How'd a young man like me get to be so cynical?
)I'm curious to know if other mistakes were made during police raids in the Mayors' community.
Not criticizing the Mayor, but many things are overlooked by elected officials when they involve someone other than themselves.
Since drug dealers are almost always armed, the threat is assumed---and rightfully so. Getting control of things quickly lessons the chance of getting shot for good guys and bad alike.
Raiding the wrong house was the blunder, not pointing weapons at those thought to be armed drug dealers in accordance with training and officer safety.
Here's a fact....
In the mid 1980's the FBI was looking for the uni-bomber... they didn't even call him that yet. Because I had given a speech in college in 1979 on how to build bombs out of common house hold materials.... It seems I got put on a list of suspects... one day the FBi came calling.
Now here is the big fact, how did they come calling on someone who might be a terrorist nut job? They drove up, got out of their car and walked up to my front door and knocked. Asked my wife if I was home... when she said no, I was at work. They left their card and asked that I call them......
In the mid 1980's the FBI was looking for the uni-bomber... they didn't even call him that yet. Because I had given a speech in college in 1979 on how to build bombs out of common house hold materials.... It seems I got put on a list of suspects... one day the FBi came calling.
Now here is the big fact, how did they come calling on someone who might be a terrorist nut job? They drove up, got out of their car and walked up to my front door and knocked. Asked my wife if I was home... when she said no, I was at work. They left their card and asked that I call them......
Sounds like a big LE screw up all away around. If the things about this being a huge ongoing drug operation is correct and this was not the first time drugs were delivered to an address and later picked up by drug dealer,seems to me LE should have known exactly who`s house they where raiding. Only smart inteligence prior to raiding establishment to find out who`s name residence is in,who`s name utilities in, who receives mail at address, etc. Those things are easily found out by LE if time permits prior to raid. Warrants from judges, as a rule don`t take that long to get. Seems to me ,,there are as of now, alot of IFS in this story but IF things happened as stated its very hard for me to believe LE didn`t know who`s house it was and a major lawsuit is in the making. Will be interesting as more facts come out.
"This is just another abuse of police authority in Prince George's County, MD. I grew up in this county and couldn't wait to leave!! They are well known in the Washington, DC area for this type of stuff."
Nah, it's a national reputation.
In an attempt to be balanced, they have a boat load of violent crooks there, too.
John
Nah, it's a national reputation.
In an attempt to be balanced, they have a boat load of violent crooks there, too.
John
maestro pistolero
New member
My brother is a Police Lieutenant in Southern California and just shook his head at this story.
He said the Feds have very effective ways of dealing with rogue agencies, including something called consent agreements, where the agency in question has to sign off on comprehensive third party oversight for a significant term, which is paid for out of their departmental budget.
Basically, every little move they make is brought under scrutiny, and oversight; documented, and reported. It's like job shadowing by big brother. If they don't agree to the consent agreement, they cease to exist as an agency.
I think the FBI will be up the rear-ends of these knuckle heads in a New York minute. I hope some careers are ended over this BS, and a strong signal is sent that this outrage will not be tolerated in this country
He said the Feds have very effective ways of dealing with rogue agencies, including something called consent agreements, where the agency in question has to sign off on comprehensive third party oversight for a significant term, which is paid for out of their departmental budget.
Basically, every little move they make is brought under scrutiny, and oversight; documented, and reported. It's like job shadowing by big brother. If they don't agree to the consent agreement, they cease to exist as an agency.
I think the FBI will be up the rear-ends of these knuckle heads in a New York minute. I hope some careers are ended over this BS, and a strong signal is sent that this outrage will not be tolerated in this country
In post number 34, "gc70" pointed out that they are *already* under a consent agreement: http://www.usdoj.gov/crt/split/documents/pgpd/pg_memo_agree.pdf
The consent agreement on the canine unit was lifted in 3/07. The second one is still in effect the last I heard. JT
"Washington Post Staff Writer
Wednesday, February 14, 2007; Page B01
The Prince George's County police canine unit, which in recent years operated under a Justice Department consent decree because of allegations of excessive force and lack of accountability, has improved to the point that the oversight is no longer necessary, a federal judge in Maryland has ruled."
"During a seven-year period from the mid-1980s to the early 1990s, county police dogs were involved in nearly 800 biting incidents, according to an internal police report included in a federal civil lawsuit against a police canine handler. Most of the bite victims were people suspected of petty, nonviolent crimes. Some were bitten multiple times and suffered grave, debilitating injuries."
"That [1999] investigation led to the 2001 conviction in federal court of former canine officer Stephanie C. Mohr. A jury convicted Mohr of a federal civil rights violation for releasing her canine on an unarmed, unresisting homeless man who was surrounded by pistol-wielding police officers. Mohr is serving a 10-year prison sentence."
________________
"A separate agreement between county officials and the Justice Department, which was negotiated to end a Justice investigation into allegations of excessive force by county police, is still operative. The department is in substantial compliance with the terms of that agreement, which calls for broad reforms regarding use of force, training and other issues, said Sharon Taylor, a spokeswoman for the police department."
_________________
In other news, I see the town cops weren't told of the raid.
"Local cops, who were kept out of the loop, were naturally indignant:
Berwyn Heights Police Chief Patrick Murphy said his eight-person department has been besieged by phone calls from as far away as Louisiana from people who mistakenly believe his officers were involved.
Murphy said he is angry that, instead, his officers were not informed ahead of time of that the county planned a major operation inside the town limits, especially in light of a 2006 incident in which then-Prince George's Police Chief Melvin C. High expressed formal "regret" that Berwyn Heights police were not told of threats made to an abortion clinic.
"I believe there is absolutely no credible reason why notification to my police department should not have been made," Murphy said. He said he is confident his officers could have entered Calvo's house without violence."
"Washington Post Staff Writer
Wednesday, February 14, 2007; Page B01
The Prince George's County police canine unit, which in recent years operated under a Justice Department consent decree because of allegations of excessive force and lack of accountability, has improved to the point that the oversight is no longer necessary, a federal judge in Maryland has ruled."
"During a seven-year period from the mid-1980s to the early 1990s, county police dogs were involved in nearly 800 biting incidents, according to an internal police report included in a federal civil lawsuit against a police canine handler. Most of the bite victims were people suspected of petty, nonviolent crimes. Some were bitten multiple times and suffered grave, debilitating injuries."
"That [1999] investigation led to the 2001 conviction in federal court of former canine officer Stephanie C. Mohr. A jury convicted Mohr of a federal civil rights violation for releasing her canine on an unarmed, unresisting homeless man who was surrounded by pistol-wielding police officers. Mohr is serving a 10-year prison sentence."
________________
"A separate agreement between county officials and the Justice Department, which was negotiated to end a Justice investigation into allegations of excessive force by county police, is still operative. The department is in substantial compliance with the terms of that agreement, which calls for broad reforms regarding use of force, training and other issues, said Sharon Taylor, a spokeswoman for the police department."
_________________
In other news, I see the town cops weren't told of the raid.
"Local cops, who were kept out of the loop, were naturally indignant:
Berwyn Heights Police Chief Patrick Murphy said his eight-person department has been besieged by phone calls from as far away as Louisiana from people who mistakenly believe his officers were involved.
Murphy said he is angry that, instead, his officers were not informed ahead of time of that the county planned a major operation inside the town limits, especially in light of a 2006 incident in which then-Prince George's Police Chief Melvin C. High expressed formal "regret" that Berwyn Heights police were not told of threats made to an abortion clinic.
"I believe there is absolutely no credible reason why notification to my police department should not have been made," Murphy said. He said he is confident his officers could have entered Calvo's house without violence."
maestro pistolero wrote:
My brother is a Police Lieutenant in Southern California and just shook his head at this story.
He said the Feds have very effective ways of dealing with rogue agencies, including something called consent agreements, where the agency in question has to sign off on comprehensive third party oversight for a significant term, which is paid for out of their departmental budget.
Basically, every little move they make is brought under scrutiny, and oversight; documented, and reported. It's like job shadowing by big brother. If they don't agree to the consent agreement, they cease to exist as an agency.
I think the FBI will be up the rear-ends of these knuckle heads in a New York minute. I hope some careers are ended over this BS, and a strong signal is sent that this outrage will not be tolerated in this country.
Re the foregojng, two points.
1. The Pittsburgh, PA PD, as I recall, was under a DOJ Consent Agreement a while back. As I remember it involved their hiring practices, not enough women and or minorities on the force at that some point in time.
2. As for the part that the FBI could, would or will play in this matter, personally speaking, I would NOT bet anything on their entering on the side of the citizen, that I couldn't live comfortably without. Of course, it wasn't the "private citizen" who was involved here, turns out that it was a political type, which might make a significant difference, who knows?
3. One passing note. Seems that some California Departments do not look real good either, no offense to maestro pistolero, or his brother.
My brother is a Police Lieutenant in Southern California and just shook his head at this story.
He said the Feds have very effective ways of dealing with rogue agencies, including something called consent agreements, where the agency in question has to sign off on comprehensive third party oversight for a significant term, which is paid for out of their departmental budget.
Basically, every little move they make is brought under scrutiny, and oversight; documented, and reported. It's like job shadowing by big brother. If they don't agree to the consent agreement, they cease to exist as an agency.
I think the FBI will be up the rear-ends of these knuckle heads in a New York minute. I hope some careers are ended over this BS, and a strong signal is sent that this outrage will not be tolerated in this country.
Re the foregojng, two points.
1. The Pittsburgh, PA PD, as I recall, was under a DOJ Consent Agreement a while back. As I remember it involved their hiring practices, not enough women and or minorities on the force at that some point in time.
2. As for the part that the FBI could, would or will play in this matter, personally speaking, I would NOT bet anything on their entering on the side of the citizen, that I couldn't live comfortably without. Of course, it wasn't the "private citizen" who was involved here, turns out that it was a political type, which might make a significant difference, who knows?
3. One passing note. Seems that some California Departments do not look real good either, no offense to maestro pistolero, or his brother.
Not "everyone", Erik. I presume they did, which, IMO makes this even worse.Erik said:
So, you're implying that PGC kept the city PD out of the loop intentionally because they thought information about the raid would leak to the mayor/suspect?
Your comment, bolded above, IMO is pure pig slop.
One of the stories indicates PGC agencies have seized over 100 parcels and 417 lbs of MJ ... are you asking us to believe this all happened within the last 5 days? Please!
IF the PGC agencies had conducted that "diligent job" of pre-investigation you suggest, then they knew the recipient was the wife of the part-time mayor, a city finance dept. employee (probably even looked at her employment records). They probably checked his history too.
Since the package was "tagged" in Arizona, police had sufficient time to:
- Obtain a search warrant (including the detail required to process one)
- Research the recipient and information about that address - including information about guns and violence.
- Coordinate with the delivery service to put an UC officer in place.
- Plan and coordinate survellance of the residence
All part of that "dilligent job", right?
Now... since police have known for many years of this kind of scam (a local Sheriff's deputy tells me he's known about it since around '95), the question then becomes why such a raid was necessary. You're dealing with the mayor of a town AND you have a valid search warrant. It is highly unlikely that the part-time mayor of the town is going to engage in shoot-out with police.
No history of weapons or violence at the address. He's the freakin' mayor fer gosh-sakes (not that it means he's squeaky clean), the cops are waiting for someone to come pick up the package... and the guy comes home from walking his dogs to find the parcel on the porch (what's my wife ordered now?) so he does the natural thing and takes it inside.
Knock on the door, present search warrant, enter house smoothly, seize parcel (probably still sealed) and question the residents.
I've heard at least one TV report and there was one printed report that officers were in "plain clothes" which is what might have freaked the M-I-L out.
So they knew it was the mayor's wife, kept his police force away, then shot his dogs and kept him handcuffed for a couple of hours during questioning. And this very diligent investigation suggested that the mayor's wife was a pot dealer, but D'oh! She's not!
The part about busting down the door once they were spotted bothers me. If a citizen sees cops coming across the lawn and yells, "Honey! Why are police approaching the house?" that is an invitation to break the door and shoot the dogs? And that's assuming the citizen recognized the police as police.
"So, you're implying that PGC kept the city PD out of the loop intentionally because they thought information about the raid would leak to the mayor/suspect?"
That it is likley, yes. The other likely scenario being that the county agencies left them out having worked with them before and simply chose to exclude them for whatever reason(s), personal and/or professional.
--
Me: "That it was likely a ruse was not known ot them at the time, or at least nothing to that effect has been reported to date.
"Your comment, bolded above, IMO is pure pig slop."
Days later my comment still holds true. Or has information been developed to the contrary? Apparently not - See below.
"One of the stories indicates PGC agencies have seized over 100 parcels and 417 lbs of MJ ... are you asking us to believe this all happened within the last 5 days? Please."
I'm not asking anything:
http://www.allheadlinenews.com/articles/7011867263
"During the investigation that occured after the incident, officials concluded that someone else that was involved with the drug package had intended to intercept it before it was delivered to the mayor's house, but the police intercepted the drug package first. The police investigation also found another five people in the county were also similar victims of identity theft.
At least two people have been arrested so far, and other packages of drugs seized."
The "known" and presumed 24-72 hour time line:
Package interdicted
Investigation begins
Operation planned
Warrant obtained
Package delivered
Warrant executed
Investigation continues
Leads developed
Operation(s) planned
Warrant(s) obtained
Warant(s) executed
Arrest of 2 suspects and seizure of 100 parcels containing 417 lbs of narcotics
Remove the emotionally charged content concerning the mayor's status, the general public's lack of understanding concerning the rules surrounding excecuting warrants, the dogs and the conspiracies theories and there is not much to the story. Which is why, to date, not much fairly describes what has been reported and what we know about the incident.
That it is likley, yes. The other likely scenario being that the county agencies left them out having worked with them before and simply chose to exclude them for whatever reason(s), personal and/or professional.
--
Me: "That it was likely a ruse was not known ot them at the time, or at least nothing to that effect has been reported to date.
"Your comment, bolded above, IMO is pure pig slop."
Days later my comment still holds true. Or has information been developed to the contrary? Apparently not - See below.
"One of the stories indicates PGC agencies have seized over 100 parcels and 417 lbs of MJ ... are you asking us to believe this all happened within the last 5 days? Please."
I'm not asking anything:
http://www.allheadlinenews.com/articles/7011867263
"During the investigation that occured after the incident, officials concluded that someone else that was involved with the drug package had intended to intercept it before it was delivered to the mayor's house, but the police intercepted the drug package first. The police investigation also found another five people in the county were also similar victims of identity theft.
At least two people have been arrested so far, and other packages of drugs seized."
The "known" and presumed 24-72 hour time line:
Package interdicted
Investigation begins
Operation planned
Warrant obtained
Package delivered
Warrant executed
Investigation continues
Leads developed
Operation(s) planned
Warrant(s) obtained
Warant(s) executed
Arrest of 2 suspects and seizure of 100 parcels containing 417 lbs of narcotics
Remove the emotionally charged content concerning the mayor's status, the general public's lack of understanding concerning the rules surrounding excecuting warrants, the dogs and the conspiracies theories and there is not much to the story. Which is why, to date, not much fairly describes what has been reported and what we know about the incident.
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And my comment stands days later that the investigation began but was never finished. A " Known" and presumed 30 min. of that 24-72 hour timeline should have been spent(and probably was) finding out who resided at residence. Not enough time to do that wouldn`t be an excuse cause PGC had control of package and when it would be delivered. Especially since this was not the first package delivered this way. Also if reason to exclude local PD was personal thats not conducting police work in a professional manner. Again the facts as they`re now known PGC screwed up.