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Mass Shooting In New Zealand
- Thread starter PhotonGuy
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I just don’t buy the pro-gun argument any more that more guns in the hands of civilians is the answer.
There’s more guns in public than ever, but the shootings are getting more frequent and larger in scale, so the answer isn’t more guns in public places because that hasn’t panned out.
They are not going to let more guns into gun free zones on a large scale and the few places that have allowed campus carry will get reversed soon I’m sure.
Thoughts and prayers don’t work, good guy with a gun is largely absent but random at best, sweeping uniformed concealed carry reciprocity isn’t going to materialize and most gun free zones are going to stand.
We need something more than the same worn out gun enthusiast cliches; or we can simply continue to accept these acts as a part of modern life and leave it all to chance... the anti-gun side isn’t going to accept it and neither should we
I’m as pro gun as they come, but the pro-gun stance isn’t working.
There’s more guns in public than ever, but the shootings are getting more frequent and larger in scale, so the answer isn’t more guns in public places because that hasn’t panned out.
They are not going to let more guns into gun free zones on a large scale and the few places that have allowed campus carry will get reversed soon I’m sure.
Thoughts and prayers don’t work, good guy with a gun is largely absent but random at best, sweeping uniformed concealed carry reciprocity isn’t going to materialize and most gun free zones are going to stand.
We need something more than the same worn out gun enthusiast cliches; or we can simply continue to accept these acts as a part of modern life and leave it all to chance... the anti-gun side isn’t going to accept it and neither should we
I’m as pro gun as they come, but the pro-gun stance isn’t working.
Thanks for that, will look into that for sure.The best I can think of is Front Sight in Pahrump NV, you can sometimes get life memberships for a very low price and their training and instruction is top quality, I speak from my own experience.
The Second Amendment says the people have a "right to keep and bear arms." Does your copy of the Constitution not include the word "bear"?
Definition of 'bear arms'. bear arms. A person's right to bear arms is their right to own and use guns, as a means of defense. ...a country where the right to bear arms is enshrined in the constitution.
The right to keep and bear arms is the people's right to possess weapons for their own defense. Only a few countries currently recognize any right to keep and bear arms and protect it on a statutory level, and even fewer protect the right on a constitutional level.
The Second Amendment to U.S. Constitution guarantees each state's right to keep a militia, and the right of individuals to keep firearms. The Second Amendment protects an individual’s right to keep and bear Arms from infringement by the Federal government. It also protects individual's right to possess firearm unconnected with service in militia, and to use that arm for traditionally lawful purposes, such as self-defense within the home and for recreational purposes such as hunting.
Not really trying to get into an argument with you but don't see the word 'concealed' anywhere..
I'll suggest that in 2007 a man with an XM-15 ,a backpack of loaded magazines,and two handguns entered the parking lot of the New Life Church in Colorado Springs,Colorado. He killed people in the parking lot and entered the church shooting.
This is a Mega Church,IIRC,I read at the time the congregation was 7000 people.IIRC,the shooter was reported to have had 1000 rounds,
And per the provided Wiki,the shooter vowed to kill all the Christians he could.
This began as potentially a worse mass shooting than we have known.
Jeanne Assam at the time was a former LEO. She was an armed parishioner serving on the church security team.
Some here dismiss the armed citizen in this situation.
IMO you are spreading BS with this one Woman as historic proof.Her testimony is ..well,you can read her account n the Wiki.
This Woman with her concealed carry gun headed for the sound of the shooting and put the shooter with the AR-15 down.
You can imagine all you want about "can't" Real life,she DID
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2007_Colorado_YWAM_and_New_Life_shootings
This is a Mega Church,IIRC,I read at the time the congregation was 7000 people.IIRC,the shooter was reported to have had 1000 rounds,
And per the provided Wiki,the shooter vowed to kill all the Christians he could.
This began as potentially a worse mass shooting than we have known.
Jeanne Assam at the time was a former LEO. She was an armed parishioner serving on the church security team.
Some here dismiss the armed citizen in this situation.
IMO you are spreading BS with this one Woman as historic proof.Her testimony is ..well,you can read her account n the Wiki.
This Woman with her concealed carry gun headed for the sound of the shooting and put the shooter with the AR-15 down.
You can imagine all you want about "can't" Real life,she DID
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2007_Colorado_YWAM_and_New_Life_shootings
1) Dedicated attackers will succeed.
2) Lone wolves are very, very difficult to detect.
3) Crazy people (those exhibiting non-rational behavior) are often "outwardly normal" then may become instantaneously unpredictable in their actions.
4) Legitimate idealists ("True believers" of a cause) will succeed or die trying.
5) Nationality seldom matters.
6) The weapon seldom matters.
How will you stop them? For most, you won't.
The good news is their numbers are relatively limited.
The bad news is 1 can kill 50, 19 can kill 3000.
And there's worse news than that coming.
This isn't a gun issue, except to politicals with an agenda.
2) Lone wolves are very, very difficult to detect.
3) Crazy people (those exhibiting non-rational behavior) are often "outwardly normal" then may become instantaneously unpredictable in their actions.
4) Legitimate idealists ("True believers" of a cause) will succeed or die trying.
5) Nationality seldom matters.
6) The weapon seldom matters.
How will you stop them? For most, you won't.
The good news is their numbers are relatively limited.
The bad news is 1 can kill 50, 19 can kill 3000.
And there's worse news than that coming.
This isn't a gun issue, except to politicals with an agenda.
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They can’t stop a shooter if they aren’t there. There’s no guarantee that a person with a gun will be there. But the above example illustrates why these targets should have security personnel.
The public in the current political environment will not allow all of these places to have trained, armed security... so we are left with hope and chance that someone will be there.
The public will not let armed good guys in many places. So the gun is not the solution. Relying on luck doesn’t work either.
What is the solution besides the gun? Because many places a gun isn’t allowed and will never be allowed.
The public in the current political environment will not allow all of these places to have trained, armed security... so we are left with hope and chance that someone will be there.
The public will not let armed good guys in many places. So the gun is not the solution. Relying on luck doesn’t work either.
What is the solution besides the gun? Because many places a gun isn’t allowed and will never be allowed.
You sound just like the anti gun rights crowd with what you say in your post.The answer isn’t the good guy with a gun. I feel that hoping for a good guy with a gun is just leaving things to the improbable chance that a good guy with a gun is actually going to be there. Not that a good guy with a gun won’t work, he/she/they just won’t be there.
No partisan super god is going to come along and grant national reciprocity, sweep away gun free zones, make gun access easier and encourage more people to carry in public. Not going to happen no or ever; most likely guns are going to become more restricted as our country progresses.
All the things that pro-gun people say will solve the problem isn’t going to happen in our country. No one is standing up for gun rights except to provide a little lip service.
Guns are becoming more restricted, ridiculous gun laws are being passed around the country.
If you think gun laws are going to become less restrictive then you might be living in a fantasy land. There’s no patriots to stand up to loss of rights anymore. There’s no political motive to lessen restrictions. No one is going to ease gun free zones.
They are teaching in schools that anything other than the democratic narrative is immoral.
They are even wanting to disarm police officers.
Guns are becoming more restricted, ridiculous gun laws are being passed around the country.
If you think gun laws are going to become less restrictive then you might be living in a fantasy land. There’s no patriots to stand up to loss of rights anymore. There’s no political motive to lessen restrictions. No one is going to ease gun free zones.
They are teaching in schools that anything other than the democratic narrative is immoral.
They are even wanting to disarm police officers.
Where would they keep the rifle?I speculating that all armed security personnel --- especially in places of worship --- should have in possession (besides a semi auto handgun) --- a high capacity semi auto rifle as well.
Photon Guy -
Good question
Due to the seriousness of the situation...I would prefer having them sling AR-15's around their necks, with the muzzle pointed at the ground. I'm guessing that the armed security should wear ballistic armor as well.
But who's gonna pay for all this equipment, training and the insurance bill as well???
And does it sorta take away the religious vibes, with all the armed security personnel scurrying about?
Good question
Due to the seriousness of the situation...I would prefer having them sling AR-15's around their necks, with the muzzle pointed at the ground. I'm guessing that the armed security should wear ballistic armor as well.
But who's gonna pay for all this equipment, training and the insurance bill as well???
And does it sorta take away the religious vibes, with all the armed security personnel scurrying about?
I'm reading testimonials to helplessness.
Life has risks.Its never going to be safe. No one,including your government,can keep you safe.
And the 2A does not keep you safe. It gives you a chance,with no guarantees.
The search for words or laws that will keep you safe is illusion. We want control.We will never have control.
Life and death happen.All we can do is deal with it. Tools and the skills to use them can help. Sometimes.
Life has risks.Its never going to be safe. No one,including your government,can keep you safe.
And the 2A does not keep you safe. It gives you a chance,with no guarantees.
The search for words or laws that will keep you safe is illusion. We want control.We will never have control.
Life and death happen.All we can do is deal with it. Tools and the skills to use them can help. Sometimes.
Photon Guy -
Good question
Due to the seriousness of the situation...I would prefer having them sling AR-15's around their necks, with the muzzle pointed at the ground. I'm guessing that the armed security should wear ballistic armor as well.
But who's gonna pay for all this equipment, training and the insurance bill as well???
And does it sorta take away the religious vibes, with all the armed security personnel scurrying about?
I disagree. Even police officers don't regularly carry rifles although they might keep them in their squad cars. I think people who are qualified to carry handguns should be allowed to carry in religious institutions and perhaps some of the staff at such places should be qualified and should be carrying concealed.
That's the thing, at least it gives you a chance. That's what the 2A is supposed to do, give you a chance, give you an option, the rest is up to you.And the 2A does not keep you safe. It gives you a chance,with no guarantees.
Double Naught Spy
New member
Okay, I watched the video. Here are a few quick things I picked up in the video...
The gunman "retreated" multiple times between rooms and out of the building, only to return and start anew. People talk about how terrible it is to shoot bad guys who are fleeing, but this is a classic example of how "flight" is determined only AFTER the gunman has actually left. Just because the gunman is going away doesn't mean the fight is over. On his last time leaving, he went after a woman and killed her. Then went to his car for a 2nd time and went to leave. Even after he took flight in his car, having left the mosque, the danger was not over and he shot (at) people from his car.
He was NOT disarmed as claimed in numerous reports, but I think the guy did try to take him down. He failed.
Nobody tried to exit the windows. Building only had one way in and out??? When people did try to take flight, it was out the front door only, it appeared.
Gunman did NOT search one large side room or bathrooms by the large room. He took only easy targets of opportunity. He did not search the side room on the other side, but could see into most of it as he passed by. I suspect survivors from the mosque that were unshot were hidden or out of view in the bathrooms or side rooms that were not searched.
People huddled together long before they were shot which made for easy, stationary targets.
He repeatedly shot dead people or people down, or down and moving or making noise. Playing dead that has worked in numerous other mass shootings would not have worked well here. I may have miscounted, by some people who were down were repeatedly shot as many as 5 separate times. A few may have been shot even more.
Passersby did nothing.
He had a reload-related malfunction (?), had trouble clearing it and did not take cover at the time. He stood out in the open, in view of the open front door, in the middle of the largest room.
I don't think he was well trained or necessarily even trained at all. He just had easy targets that essentially waited to be shot in many cases. That he repeatedly shot people seems to be what drove up the death rate. He certainly wasn't unfamiliar with his weapons, but not to the point to indicate that he was highly trained. Mag changes were not smooth, the malfunction clearing wasn't smooth, he dropped a fully loaded mag and never retrieved it (explained by him in drive afterwards), he left a gun on the ground, during the shooting, he left his vehicle open and all the spare weapons exposed, etc. etc. etc. His strongest skill seemed to be to pull the trigger a lot.
The gunman "retreated" multiple times between rooms and out of the building, only to return and start anew. People talk about how terrible it is to shoot bad guys who are fleeing, but this is a classic example of how "flight" is determined only AFTER the gunman has actually left. Just because the gunman is going away doesn't mean the fight is over. On his last time leaving, he went after a woman and killed her. Then went to his car for a 2nd time and went to leave. Even after he took flight in his car, having left the mosque, the danger was not over and he shot (at) people from his car.
He was NOT disarmed as claimed in numerous reports, but I think the guy did try to take him down. He failed.
Nobody tried to exit the windows. Building only had one way in and out??? When people did try to take flight, it was out the front door only, it appeared.
Gunman did NOT search one large side room or bathrooms by the large room. He took only easy targets of opportunity. He did not search the side room on the other side, but could see into most of it as he passed by. I suspect survivors from the mosque that were unshot were hidden or out of view in the bathrooms or side rooms that were not searched.
People huddled together long before they were shot which made for easy, stationary targets.
He repeatedly shot dead people or people down, or down and moving or making noise. Playing dead that has worked in numerous other mass shootings would not have worked well here. I may have miscounted, by some people who were down were repeatedly shot as many as 5 separate times. A few may have been shot even more.
Passersby did nothing.
He had a reload-related malfunction (?), had trouble clearing it and did not take cover at the time. He stood out in the open, in view of the open front door, in the middle of the largest room.
I don't think he was well trained or necessarily even trained at all. He just had easy targets that essentially waited to be shot in many cases. That he repeatedly shot people seems to be what drove up the death rate. He certainly wasn't unfamiliar with his weapons, but not to the point to indicate that he was highly trained. Mag changes were not smooth, the malfunction clearing wasn't smooth, he dropped a fully loaded mag and never retrieved it (explained by him in drive afterwards), he left a gun on the ground, during the shooting, he left his vehicle open and all the spare weapons exposed, etc. etc. etc. His strongest skill seemed to be to pull the trigger a lot.
RAfiringline
New member
Does anyone know what weapons and calibers he was using?
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