Mary Lou Sapone, 2nd A heroine.

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If you want to talk about deceitful, the Brady bunch and friends started up that so called sportsmens group a few years ago, to dupe gun owners into giving money to an anti gun cause. I can't remember the name but it had all the right words to deceive.

So maybe Mary Lou Sapone was gathering information, ok. That can't even hold a candle to the deviousness that Brady bunch and friends have pulled since the very beginning.

And let's not forget their friends in the media who systematically engage in selective reporting to slant viewers opinion against gun ownership.

When one of them comes along and actually portrays gun owning Americans as something other than rabid kooks or criminals, it's like a shock to the system. I almost keeled over when I saw that show Jericho, it was so out of character for MSM (in other words it was great). Well then again, it didn't last, so there you go.

One tactic of crazy people and gun grabbers alike is to do a lot of really wrong things and act like everything's peachy, but when you do one thing they can construe as wrong, they hold it up high and draw everyone's attention to it. I don't know what the term is for that, but I've seen it a lot in my life. It is disgusting.
 
Tennessee Gentleman would you describe the information and opinions you're presenting as 'Inconvenient Truths' do you feel the current hot weather we're having is caused by human activity?
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Why aren't you in school? It's too early for you to be home!;)
 
"I guess Richard Nixon and his "plumbers" are your heroes too? They had the same thought process. THEY (the Republican Party) was the only real choice for America and the Demoocrats were EVIL. So, in spite of the fact that George McGovern had a snowballs chance in hell of winning, they went and bugged his office and played dirty tricks on his campaign. They got caught and we got Jimmy Carter! Great victory."

Let us know when you start getting low on straw. I'll kick in a buck.

Tim
 
Those who do not study and remember history are condemned to repeat it.
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I'm well versed in history and I fail to see how the events of the Watergate scandal are analogous to Mary Lou Sapone, 2nd A heroine and thats what she is, a heroine and only someone sympathetic to gun control groups would think otherwise.

She broke no law and the information she provided more than likely gave the NRA leadership valuable insight into those evil organizations.
 
5. Obstacles to Ethical Decision Making: Rationalizations

• If It's Necessary, It's Ethical
• The False Necessity Trap
• If It's Legal and Permissible, It's Proper
• It's Just Part of the Job
• It's All for a Good Cause
• I Was Just Doing It for You
• I'm Just Fighting Fire With Fire
• It Doesn't Hurt Anyone
• Everyone's Doing It
• It's OK if I Don't Gain Personally
• I've Got It Coming
• I Can Still Be Objective
 
This whole exchange has gotten a little silly and I share the blame for that, so I will bow out. But before I do, I would like to answer one more of TG's questions:

"Don't you think that logic and common sense will win the day for us?"

No, I don't. We have tried that for years, and found that our logical, sensible arguments fell onto the deaf ears of irrational and emotionally-driven gun-haters. The fight for our gun rights is one that we cannot afford to lose, and if winning requires tactics that some consider sleazy, so be it.

Tim
 
She broke no law and the information she provided more than likely gave the NRA leadership valuable insight into those evil organizations.
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Nate,
See rationalizations above, especially number 3. Also, we don't know for sure if she did break the law. She may have.
 
Unethical?

I personally see it as a war and all is fair in love and war. We are battling forces that are trying to strip us of our constitutional right to arms. People who are completely immune to the logic and reason you say will win the day. It is perhaps to you unethical, but Sun Tzu wouldn't think so.
 
then the brady coalition didnt break the law when they lie to us or to congress????? the rules of engagement in a battle are not written down as far as I know in this kind of battle. if we only do what is right and good we are fighting with one hand tied behind our backs. because they sure arent.

they lie and distort the truth, then yell foul when we point it out to them. at least when we can prove it in time to make them look like a fool.

Sorry TG but they dont play fair. you say you were in the military, well did you not change tactics to suit the battle. make no mistake this is a battle and one of the most important battles of our countries existance. we win or it will not be a free country for much longer
 
You know, if a foreign army landed in America for the expressed purpose of confiscating all our privately owned weapons in compliance with some UN mandate (yeah, I know, I despise these 1990s-style conspiracy "they're out to get us" scenarios too) we'd probably resist them with deadly force.

Some of us would.

Now I'm not advocating violence or anything, but in the same vein...we're supposed to put on kid gloves and get out the foam-padded wiffle-ball bats when dealing with people in our own COUNTRY who are attempting to do the same thing as that theoretical foreign army?

How's that work?

But here's the difference.

There likely isn't ever going to be such an army, for numerous reasons.

On the other hand, organizations like Brady and others could achieve their goals if the conditions for the perfect storm are met or they just stick the same old incrementalism they've been using.
 
I personally see it as a war and all is fair in love and war.
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No it's not , but then you never served or you would know that.

they lie and distort the truth, then yell foul when we point it out to them.
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I have never defended the Brady Campaign and won't now. I sure don't want to give them any ammunition to help their cause either. Like spying on them.

Sorry TG but they dont play fair. you say you were in the military, well did you not change tactics to suit the battle. make no mistake this is a battle and one of the most important battles of our countries existance. we win or it will not be a free country for much longer.
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There are rules in warfare. Unlike my inexperienced and uninformed friend nate45 you can't do whatever you want in wartime. We hung germans and japanese for doing so in WWII. When you stoop to the level of your opponent you are no better than he.

we're supposed to put on kid gloves and get out the foam-padded wiffle-ball bats when dealing with people in our own COUNTRY who are attempting to do the same thing as that theoretical foreign army?
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I thik we can beat these clowns without stupid stuff like that. Hell, we just won a great battle against them in June. We'll win some more too.
 
Oh no, I'm not one of these "bunker mentality" gun guys who's always thinking the chips are stacked against us and we're always fighting a losing rearguard action.

We've been handing the anti-gunners their lunch for the better part of two decades now. More states have ccw than do not, etc.

I'm just saying that given the nature of our opponents, it is impossible for me to feel shame or embarassment over this sort of thing.

Like I said, if we were dealing with opponents who used logical debate, untainted facts and statistics, and all other manner of respectable means, I'd probably feel a bit shamed by this.

But they don't. Logic and truth does not help these people, so they do not utilize those tools. They go in for emotion and agit-prop.

And their ultimate goal is to relieve me of thousands of dollars worth of private property and leave me, my family and my friends at the mercy of society's predators, rapists, burglars, home invasion robbers, kidnappers and ultimately, tyrannical government. This is not like William F. Buckley and John Maynard Keynes having a sprited but friendly debate via correspondence about tax cuts or Bach. This is not some friendly meeting in the park for an afternoon of chess.

Screw 'em.
 
but then you never served
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Wrong, I was in the RA, but I don't wear it on my sleeve like you do.

We hung germans and japanese for doing so in WWII.
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Thats because we won, if they had won our leaders would have been the ones hung. Firebombing every major city in Japan and Dresden come to mind, not to mention the A-bomb, but they fought the war to win.
 
Tennessee Gentleman:
Quote:
I personally see it as a war and all is fair in love and war.
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No it's not , but then you never served or you would know that.
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Actually that isn’t quite true. You are comparing conventional warfare to intelligence gathering. Apples to oranges. Conventional warfare does, indeed, have rules that have to be followed. The world of intelligence is a completely different entity with different rules and objectives.

And before you suggest it, I served too. Army Security Agency (under the patronage of Military Intelligence).
 
Wrong, I was in the RA
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Then you were a poor soldier if you believe that anything goes in war. Either that or you slept through your Law of Warfare instruction.

I don't wear it on my sleeve like you do
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I am proud of my service I guess you ain't. I served honorably, I hope you did.

Firebombing every major city in Japan and Dresden come to mind, not to mention the A-bomb,
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Were not war crimes. No Germans were hung for Conventry or Japs for Pearl Harbor. Mostly they were hung for abusing prisoners and other noncombatants. Except Tojo and I agree that was political.

You are comparing conventional warfare to intelligence gathering.
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No I am saying stooping to the unethical level of a political opponent makes you as bad as them. BTW, misguided as these people in the Brady Campaign are they are still American Citizens, not vermin or terrorists. You start putting too many horns on folks and you soon will need the tin foil hat.

The world of intelligence is a completely different entity with different rules and objectives.
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Again, apples and oranges. Spying on a foreign power is different than this deal. Of course the military did spy on it's citizens during Vietnam to their everlasting shame.
 
"5. Obstacles to Ethical Decision Making: Rationalizations

• If It's Necessary, It's Ethical
• The False Necessity Trap
• If It's Legal and Permissible, It's Proper
• It's Just Part of the Job
• It's All for a Good Cause
• I Was Just Doing It for You
• I'm Just Fighting Fire With Fire
• It Doesn't Hurt Anyone
• Everyone's Doing It
• It's OK if I Don't Gain Personally
• I've Got It Coming
• I Can Still Be Objective"

Try telling that to a Lawyer, lol. It is an optional lecture after the BAR.

And I don't think anyone has the write to say it needs to be done or not bc we do not know the outcome of the events. Unless someone has miss cleo on speed dial. This country sure is based on "spies" though. CIA is a huge library of info.
 
TG, regardless of how much you feel this womans conduct, and compensation, have offended your strict and semingly inflexible morals; I find absolutely nothing wrong with her actions as reported. I personally consider the various gun control groups and their members to be useful idiots at best, and budding totalitarians at worst. The drive to strip americans of their Second Amendment rights has been an ongoin concern for a large number of years by a large group of entities both foreign and domestic. These organisations have often been shown to use fabricated, misleading, false, and imaginary data and victims in underhanded, dishonest and fradulent ways over a period of time great enough to assume that the phrase "by hook or by crook" is known at least as well if not far better on the "control" side of the debate. As a member of the NRA I am personally quite pleased to know that some of what I and other have been paying over the years has been disbursed to someone who so directly and honestly earned it.

In fact I am now rather interested in finding out if perhaps the NRA or other gun rights organisations have specialised funds with which someone such as myself could be assured that the money I donated were to go to such valuable assets to the advancement of American Freedom.


But thats just my .02 cents. I aint a soldier or a cop or anybody important, Im just a citizen.
 
your strict and semingly inflexible morals
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I guess I always was taught that morals were not negotiable, no matter because that is my personal belief.

I am more offended that this lady is being called a heroine and we don't know if she is even progun! She was paid, but heros sacrifice themselves for others. Did she? Doesn't appear so.

I personally consider the various gun control groups and their members to be useful idiots at best, and budding totalitarians at worst.
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Lets go with the former. If what you say is true does the NRA need to pay a spy and maybe other spys 80K and more to find out what they are doing?

I aint a soldier or a cop or anybody important, Im just a citizen.
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You are very important IMHO. I didn't serve for the pay or the vacation time. I did it for citizens like you. You and others like you were why I had a purpose as a soldier. I married a citizen too;)
 
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