Martial Arts guru vs. a handgunner stories?

"For the unprepared, under trained, or underestimating"

Excellent points. We should remind our brothers here of this.

Look, I like jokes as much as the next guy. In fact, I laughed out loud when I first heard the "knife to a gunfight" joke. The problem is that we seem to have taken the joke and made it a manual of arms.

I even heard the gag on CSI.

During the last week I bought an 18 dollar Japanese pocketknife from my distributor. In truth, I just wanted to see one. Oh, I had seen the Japanese build 'American' pocketknives like Kershaws and Sydercos, but those are for export.

This was a real-deal Japanese home-grown product.

Imagine my surprise when I opened the package and found that the knife had a sashimi blade. That is, a chisel grind on the decorative side and a hollow-grind on the obverse side.

I gave it a polish and now it is the sharpest knife I own. I have handed it to clients who are all in disbelief.

So let's suppose the advice that Threegun just gave us is ignored. If an aggressor confronted Mr. Threegun intending him harm and denigrating sound advice, I know what I would do.

I'd toss him the Japanese knife and say, "Hey, TG, finish him off."
 
I had been dabbling in knife fighting recently just for sheits and grins. I have no doubt in my mind that if I fail with my gun and allow Mr bad guy with a knife to get within striking distance I'm gonna suffer significant injury or death. Even more so is my belief after learning a bit about knife fighting. How certain slashes can incapacitate certain muscle groups etc.

Knife fighting is so bloody and nasty that I stopped pursuing it. I feel that there is no way I could defend myself in court after having placed multiple slashes to an adversary no matter how justified at the time. The cuts (most cuts) don't kill or incapacitate very fast and with knife fighting you are trained to get what you can when you can and get out. Nasty stuff. With a proper knife it won't take but a few seconds to butcher a foe.
 
I have no doubt in my mind that if I fail with my gun and allow Mr bad guy with a knife to get within striking distance I'm gonna suffer significant injury or death.
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Knife defense was some of the hardest classes in LEO training. The worst part is, as most instructors will tell you, that even the most seasoned self defense gurus have a bad habit of letting instinct kick in when attacked by a knife and this causes them to usually do the worst thing they can do and grab the blade. The main emphasis in the training was "do not let a man with a knife get close to you."
 
"so bloody and nasty that I stopped pursuing it"

Threegun, my story is a bit of "good news, bad news."

First, the bad news. I live in the Peoples' Republik of Wisconsin. We have no CCW permits. Many carry anyway, but that would be wrong.

We are allowed open carry and 'off body' in a case. Since I was white-collar at the time of purchase, I bought a discrete day-planner.

Now the good news. I'm a knife distributor and polisher. I get all of the toys at about half price, and I have Japanese waterstones to make them perform. A gentleman by the name of Ben Dale sells most of the equipment I need, and he trained me. I liked the work so much that I retired and started my own business.

In college, I thought I might like to go into illustration, and perhaps advertising, as I like to write. To complete that portion of my education, I had to take loads of English and lit courses, and anatomy. (I assumed it was to study the human body for accurate renderings.)

You might find this funny for a biker, but I also took fencing for three years. Two years in high school, and one year in college under instructer Archie Simonson. I really only studied foil and sabre, the epee almost put me to sleep. (Epee is so slow that the inside joke is, "I dozed off during a match but scored two points.")

With no ready access to a CCW license, I've had to just learn to be comfortable with knives and accept the fact that legal status might be a few years off. Our present governor, Jim Doyle, has already vetoed a past bill.

So I settle with what I have. Superior knives, razor edges, knowledge of anatomy and formalized fencing training.

Not much of a resume' for Rambo, but this is the reality of the situation. It's not going to improve soon, and it appears that violence (and strange crimes) are on the rise in south-central Wisconsin.

So, you might see a ton of blood, slashed tendons and more intestines than you knew existed. You call the Federales, you vomit and then go home safe. There's not much of an alternative, except maybe pepper spray.
 
There is no doubt in my mind that somewhere there is a highly trained martial arts sensei that can disarm virtually anyone.

But let's get real guys, you and I are not that guy.

In fact, if it appeared that the guy was younger, stronger, faster and better trained than you, I would simply advise you to pull a second knife.

Trust me, you'll get a DNA sample.
 
fencing

You might find this funny for a biker, but I also took fencing for three years.
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European fencing is very lethal with proper equipment; possibly most lethal martial art of all that are not based on firearms and don't have to deal with armored opponents. Nothing funny about doing it for 3 years. Except perhaps how it looks :)
 
"Except perhaps how it looks"

I must admit, you're probably right.

As I have said, one of the sharpest edged knives I know of is the sashimi. Usually it is used to block tuna, perhaps wet chicken or fish in a shorter length for a restaurant kitchen. A sushi chef uses one.

I happened to find a jackknife with this style of edge. Sorry for the photo. The edge looks black in the pic, but I assure you it is a perfect mirror.

As I sharpened it to this quality, I did a little thing we call "tickling the dragon." That is, carefully touching the edge to sense how keen the edge is.

Yikes. Right through your tendons and into your bone...


sashimi.jpg
 
With the limited training I have with the knife my abilities with it have risen tremendously. That little bit of training made me want to keep space between me and a knife even more. It is so easy to slash and very fast especially with the knife in your front hand. Almost impossible to stop. The solution is deploy a gun against the knife and keep space or get cut.

Still I carry a knife even when I carry my gun.....why??? For those awkward times when I feel unsafe by someone but they haven't given me a reason to draw my gun. I can put my knife in hand and at the ready. If jumped the knife will give me an edge (pardon the pun LOL). Many times deploying your gun might not be practical if jumped without warning.
 
"deploying your gun might not be practical"

Coupled with that aspect, many municipalities have statutes for 'brandishing.' Simply flashing your coat open to show a firearm can get your permit lifted in some areas.

We also have debated 'intimidation' in the forum, a concept with which I agree. I have seen many fights simply dissolve because one guy was firm and resolved and the other guy blinked. As a Japanese general once said, "The best battle is the one not fought."

Of course, there's always going to be this "one guy." Probably drunk and full of himself. He's bound and determined to provoke you for some real or imagined slight. Sometimes his buddies are egging him on.

And while we all know that this guy might be a real pussy cat when he is sober, I see no reason to take a beating for his alcoholic intake. In that context, a knife might give you some flexibility in the game of 'escalation of force.'

You might yell at an aggressor, you might even have pepper spray. But if nothing else works, you're stuck brandishing your firearm. You will be held accountable for your actions, and I'm not sure I want to face a DA after shooting a drunk holding a billard cue.

I believe people have a predetermined fear of being cut, like the fear of snakes or spiders. A slash, especially a scalp cut, sends the message through an individual's nervous system and there's a lot of blood. This might be the cold slap in the face that a bully needs to back off.

But then, like my Daddy used to say, "If you want to avoid the train, then stay off of the tracks."

It's been close to 30 years since I've been in a saloon, primarily since I hate cigarette smoke. Fortunately, Madison, Wisconsin has now implemented an almost smoke-free environment for bars and restaurants. And that's the quiet atmosphere I now seek.

Coupled with the fact that I am 57 years old, exchanging blows with a drunken townie has lost the glamor of the life I used to lead. And perhaps that's the best lesson.

When I changed my habits the bullies couldn't find me, knife or no knife.
 
Disarmement of someone useing a physical move is certainly possible. Not my first choice by far. It's just that it's better to do something than just stand there and get shot. Combine the shooting abilities and the USD abilities and you will have a much greater ability to survive and attack.
 
Disarmement of someone useing a physical move is certainly possible. Not my first choice by far. It's just that it's better to do something than just stand there and get shot.
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I think most would agree that doing something is better than just waiting for death. It is just difficult to predict if the bad guy was going to shoot or not.
 
I know it's been beaten to death. But most people are
probably aware of the Moro's during the Philippine Insurection. If your not it went something like this. One nutjob wanting to die for Allah would bind his body up tightly with steel wire to slow bleeding, take drugs to dull pain, and sometimes even be given a "magic amulet" that supposedly made them safe from the Infidels bullets. Give him a big, sharp knife and turn him loose on a bunch of American G.I.'s. Results?
Of course one dead Moro after being filled full of everything from .38 Long Colt to .30-.40 Krag. But usually several dead American G.I.'s cut to pieces. And for those of you that live in a dream world no the .45 Colt did not do much better than the .38 in spite of myth and legend. If a centerfire rifle had trouble bringing them down what chance did a handgun round have?
The only thing that gave the soldiers any feeling of confidence? 12 Gage Winchester Pump. It would almost (I'm sure their are exceptiions just like their are today) always do the trick. So drugged up, nutjob, bullet sponges are no knew or unknown phenomena. We have 100 plus years of dealing with them. And history has shown although not impossible it is very difficult to hit a quickly moving target, bent on doing as much damage as possible in the head. Especially when you are about to piss yourself from fear!
Fast forward to today. Get someone high on Meth or PCP and give them a sharp object. Even with lots of different bullets yes you get one dead drug user. But lots of badly hurt people before it's all said and done. Haven't seen anyone on Meth. Years ago had to deal with some folks on PCP. All I can say is they are like rabid animals. They simply had to loose alot of blood, and I mean alot before they went down. Stoping Power? BULLS*&^! Our instructor trained us on the use of knives. Very basic stuff. Ever seen an Escrima practitioner work with a knife? No joke whirling death. I survived two knife attacks when I was younger. Basically because the two guys were stupid.
To those of you training in traditional Martial Arts or a shooters. Instead of pre-arranged "one step" style drills try this. Put on gear. Give the guy who is supposed to be the aggressor with the knife a red marker. Then fight. You will truly be surprised at all the red slashes all over your protective equipment when it's all said and done. Do the same if your a shooter with an Airsoft gun or better yet Simunitions. Trust me it's a real eye opener. Look my instructors son survived several situations in which guys pulled guns. When I talked to him about it he said they all made the same mistakes.
They all had the weapons in their belts and had to draw. They all got too close. And none were surprise attacks. They were all guys he threw out of the bars he worked at. They were all stupid and said they'd be back with a gun. I asked him what if they would have had some distance and just opened fire. He said "we wouldn't be having this conversation". Distance is safety. But awareness is imperative.
 
Martial arts prepares your body and your mind to take action. That said, it does nothing to keep you from making foolish decisions. Trying to fight an alert armed man with hand to hand techniques is a last-ditch resort. It may work, it may not, depending on the opponent. But if you're going to get capped either way, make him pay.
 
"nothing to keep you from making foolish decisions"

This is the crux of my argument. In fact, the truly smart individual conducts his life so that deadly armed conflict is never much of a chance.

And I think everyone here pretty much believes that in the basic sense. We are all involved in the shooting sport, and most of us are realists. Many of the people here take some form of martial arts training--and I believe in it.

For example, my wife is a teacher. After a few decades of teaching special ed, she believes the best way to handle unruly children is to enrole them in martial arts. Their self-esteem rises, their conduct improves, their grades rise. Ultimately, they are destined to become better citizens.

For the purposes of this debate, however, we are dealing with "foolish decisions."

If an untrained young braggart approaches me, and he doesn't know how to remove the safety of a 1911, we will serve him up as sushi.

If that same braggart approaches Masaad Ayoob with an ice pick, it will take a trained CSI unit just to count the holes.

So, I believe we primarily agree on a few things. First, let's be intelligent in our public conduct. Further, while we have freedom to travel as we choose, being drunk in the ghetto at zero-dark-thirty is probably not in our best interest. The martial arts is excellent training for mind and body, but it is not an instant trump card for safety.

And finally, there are 'magic men' with wonderful skills in disarmament. Tragically, experts die by violence.
 
The martial arts is excellent training for mind and body, but it is not an instant trump card for safety.
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Especially when you're walking home at night and some great homicidal maniac comes after you with a bunch of loganberries...then what are you going to do? :)
 
Chuck Norris

"There is no doubt in my mind that somewhere there is a highly trained martial arts sensei that can disarm virtually anyone."


Have you met Chuck Norris? " Guns don't kill people. Chuck Norris kills People." :D
 
Chuck is the first white man to achieve his level of belt. Not a weak feat.

There used to be a martial artist that caught a bullet in his teeth, an arrow in one hand etc. He was ready tho.
 
Sure I know a few martial artist that can disarm every time. After noticing an idiot with a gun that is printing they just beat the hell out of them before they even know the 'artist' was even in the same room with them.

See you guys keep thinking the handgunner is going to be waving their gun around.

I know one man, an old friend, who was a used car salesman in Lousianna. A rather pissed off ex-customer came to where he worked with a pistol in his belt. He showed the gun and told him how irritated he was. The used car salesman just pushed the gun (and gunman's hand) deeper into his belt while he bashed the guys head in with the free hand while he pinned him to the side of a car.

So, yep I know of a real life disarm. Only thing is, my friend was not, nor ever had been, in any martial art!
 
You can be pretty sure most black-belts of taekwondo have little to no skill. They're flexible and that's about it.

IMO the only martial arts worth training in come from Japan. You get a good solid course in a hard style of jujutsu it will bring your understanding of reflexes and pain to a new level. If you ever make the trip to Japan you will meet some police officers and martial art experts who could knock a gun out of your hands and throw you on your neck faster than you can even think of pulling the trigger.

Trust me on this one. Anyone who thinks otherwise, if you're ever in Japan, take a stop by a local jujutsu dojo and get the head honcho of it to use you as their test mule for stuff like that.

Guns are great if you have a bit of space, however knives and hand to hand skills rule the day when you're in tight spaces. I'd pick my hand to hand or knife skills every time over a gun if I were ever confronted in a bus or train or plane.
 
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