Martial Arts guru vs. a handgunner stories?

Being skilled with your hands and feet, even if very highly skilled, does not guarantee anything.
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You got that right. A friend of mine teaches martial arts locally and has a couple different belts. He is also about 5'7" and weighs about 150lbs. Just a few weeks ago I was able to playfully over power and pin him to the ground on a dare at a cook-out. I attribute to me be a very slow but much larger 6'-6'1" and weighing in at a slim 215-220lbs. :o :)

I am not an untrained fighter by any means but I am just a brawler. I hae nowhere near the same skills as him.
 
It's the man, not the metal. Don't be fooled by names and claims.

For example, right now with me is a Japanese cutting implement. It has many layers of folded and welded steel. It has been hammered and polished with an Rc rating of 64, at least. I personally straightened and perfected the bevel, using numerous waterstones, several polishing papers of various grits, including 60,000 series chromium oxide paste.

There is no denying that one swipe with this creation will take any man's arm down through every tendon right to the bone.

What is this magic tool? Is it a 14th century katana or secret ninja device.

Of course not, it's a Hattori kitchen knife. A gyuto to be exact.

As presented, there are several well trained martial artists of eastern disciplines who have contributed to this thread.

If my gyuto was to fall into their skilled hands, my advice is to run--if that, in fact, is still possible.
 
I don't usually respond to these

what ifs, but this one is too funny not to.

I am a law enforcement officer. I have received training in ground fighting, defensive tactics, arrest techniques, soft and hard control techniques, and weapons retention and defensive tactics.

Can someone with training disarm someone pointing a firearm at them? Yes it can be done; in a training situation I took a empty, but cocked 1911 Colt away from a police detective one day - by the time the hammer dropped the pistol was pointed at the detective's stomach and not at me as it started. In a life or death situation would I try to do that move? I will do what ever I feel may be necessary to save my life...

I suspect that the general consensus of martial art masters would probably train their students to prepare their minds to be able to make that decision if it and when it has to be done but each person must make the decision themselves...
 
God made man and Sam Colt made them equal

No wallet or watch is worth your life.

When faced with a dangerous situation you must either act, or avoid. Doing nothing invites trouble.

There is a thin line between bravery and stupidity, avoiding a situation where the odds are clearly stacked against you is not a cowardly act. The goal is to live to fight another day. Only you can decide if the situation can be avoided or not.

Never show up to a gunfight with a knife.

Friends, I think we can all agree that going up against an armed adversary while unarmed ourselves is a "last resort" option, and one that should be avoided when at all possible. Like my Sensei told me, we can either act or avoid any dangerous situation that comes our way. While I am sure that there are very brave people among us here on this board to assume that every situation we may face can be dealt with only one way is foolish, and potentially deadly. The odds are very against you to go up against an armed adversary with a gun, not matter how many years of Martial Arts training you may have. It's always better to live to fight another day...or for as long as it takes to arm yourself as well. :)
 
There are so many variables that come into play in any armed or unarmed confrontation. If the jaw of the greatest martial artist in the world meets my left hook or straight right all of his training will go out the window. Yet the odds decrease that my hook and right meets his jaw with no training on my part or increased training on his.

I think the best way to put this is martial arts training (or any fighting discipline) conditions the mind and body to use the weapons available. The black belt has sparred so many times that he will be far more likely to win his individual battle. Just like someone armed with a gun increases his chances of survival with training. Nothing is guaranteed but training does better the odds.

Gun vs. knife is bad enough Gun vs empty hand is suicide
 
Is it possible for an unarmed martial artist to defeat an opponent armed with a firearm?

Yes, it is possible....but not very likely.

The developement of firearms changed combat forever.
It brought about the demise of both the european knight and the japanese samurai.
While it took both knights and samurai many many years to become proficient in combat, it took the average peasant only a couple of months to become proficient with a firearm.
The warlords quickly understood the economics involved and realized that they could hire trained peasants armed with firearms for much less $$$ than knights or samurai.
And the peasants were much cheaper and easier to replace when they fell on the battlefield than either knights or samurai.

And remember that unarmed martial arts mostly florished in places where the populance was not allowed to own other weapons, like firearms.
IIRC, unarmed martial arts florished in Okinawa mostly because the commoners were not allowed to carry weapons.
Unarmed martial arts did not florish in the US so much because the common man could carry firearms.

Even an untrained and inexperienced shooter (with a loaded firearm) is just as deadly a threat as a master martial artist....perhaps even moreso.
 
I am a 3rd degree black belt and I carry a gun. I don't have any "REAL" life experience but my teacher worked on disarming people with guns and knives of all different types and sizes. What is comes down to is.....is the person close enough for you to disarm them, do they give you the opportunity.... are they focused on you or are they watching what is around them, if they take there eyes off you you have a better chance of taking the weapon from them.....

... you just have to know going for there gun could mean your life.
 
"Never show up to a gunfight with a knife."

I realize this is a gun forum, but I wish we could get past this.

Most of the guys here know lots about firearms and reloading. Many have CCW licenses or have spent years (in fact, decades) practicing and hunting. More than a few of us are combat trainers or martial arts instructors.

But some of us aren't that well versed. What about new guys just getting into our sport? We all know that many folks just buy a handgun and a singular box of ammunition and think they can take on the world.

We don't seem to learn from the "21 foot rule." Or, the fact that a trained martial artist within grappling distance with an edged weapon can seriously hurt you before you before you've even initiated any move to a speed rock.

We don't discuss disparity of force. Many women and men of small stature now carry firearms or pepper spray. Ever see a 275 pound weight lifter on 'roid rage? His superior strength can easily wrest a weapon away from the weaker. Heck, he's a danger to the populace whether he's armed or not.

Kidding aside, edged weapons (and blunt force trauma weapons) are a factor in defense against aggressors.

See Snopes.
 
Ah... Another martial arts thread!

It seems that there are two major questions in this thread: 1. What happens when a trained martial artist is confronted by a guy with a gun? and 2. Does anybody have any cool stories about empty hand vs. gun?

As to the first question: After a few years of training and testing on this topic, it has been my experience that, around 99 times out of 100, when a trained martial artist is attacked with a handgun at close range with no prior warning, the guy with the gun shoots the martial artist before the martial artist can figure out what's happening and take the gun away. That other 1 time out of 100, the martial artist grabs the gun away before he can be shot.

My qualification to these findings are: The guy with the gun typically only gets one shot off before the martial artist is on him, and that one shot is typically not very well aimed. So, the martial artist usually suffers a non-lethal wound, and manages to get the gun away.

As to the second question: The only story I know about is a parable on proper practice. You must remember the statement, "You will perform what you practice." Make it your mantra, and live by it.

My martial arts instructor, in his younger years, was an army man. He would train with his friends on the base in empty hand weapons-disarming techniques. Each time they would run a disarming drill, he would grapple the weapon away from his training partner, and then he would calmly hand the weapon back to his training partner to repeat the drill.

One night, my instructor was in a parking lot on the base, and he was held up by a mugger. The mugger drew a weapon and demanded my instructor's wallet and car keys. My instructor, without thought or hesitation, clapped his hands down on the weapon, stripped it from the attacker's hands, and then calmly handed the weapon back to his attacker! The attacker took the weapon, and my instructor repeated this process three more times!!! Each time, he would strip the weapon, and then calmly hand it back to the attacker! He finally woke up and realized what he had been doing, whereupon he took the weapon away for the last time and kept it. The attacker was LITERALLY speechless by the end of the exchange.

Moral of the story: Practice like it's real. Because, when it IS real, you will perform what you have practiced!
 
There is a problem with martial arts schools in US. It's being addressed with growing popularity of MMA. Typical ma schools breed black belts who train forms, break specially purchased boards and do no-contact sparring. They are good for both, children and adults, as far as teaching discipline, spirituality, and certain type of physical development. They can't really fight, but it's not the problem. The problem is, they think that they can. Nothing against those schools, they just have to be recognized for what they are. In a fighting scenario, reference to a "black belt" doesn't mean much without specifics of the school where it was obtained.

Back to Alex Gong (1970-2003), I mentioned him above. The guy was a world champion full contact kickboxer. He was as legit of a fighter as it gets. And yet he succumbed to a single bullet shot by a car thieve. Meanwhile, I know first hand of several encounters where trained people would come off on top of an armed assailant. What gives? Evaluation of those situations shows that the difference that closes the gap between life and death is situational awareness. Situational awareness is not something that's trained in gym, and unfortunately it's not something that you can just learn mentally. Just like any other skill, it's learned hard way. That's why guys who live in line of harm have somewhat of advantage in these situations. Reading body language, quietly closing the distance when other guy's hand innocently goes in his pocket, positioning yourself closer to a water pipe laying on the ground - without these little things even the best martial arts training may prove completely useless, unless you are dealing with a total schmuck.

And back to Alex Gong. I somehow feel very wrong that a fighter of his caliber didn't have situational awareness developed enough to get him out of line of danger. Even though it's not learned in gym, this level of body development should tune up mental faculties as well. Overconfidence perhaps? We'll never know what was going through his mind.
 
i have one second hand story i heard from an old and really big guy i practiced wing tsun with. when he was younger he was a jujustu guy pretty highly ranked/skilled and was working as a bouncer. one night he asks this guy to leave the and they guy tried to pull a gun my friend was prepared and slaped it out of the guys hand, but the guy draws a second gun so my friend tried a normal wrist lock to disarm the punk unfortunately that swept the barrel across his body and he got shot in the leg.
it was so close though that my friend broke the guys windpipe and beat the hell out of him, they were both taken to the same emergency room and the other guy went to jail.

i don't know if it was true or not but the guy was not given to showing off or bragging and the topic at the time was just how easily a disarm can go wrong.
 
H2H is a last ditch defense, and on airliners and such about the only realistic defense! When I board an airliner, I still carry weapons... my hands, feet, elbows, and knees. People who rely only on guns board aircraft truely unarmed.
___
Careful, the libs will come and confiscate those bodyparts too, when getting rid of guns doesn't end all violence. Make you ride that airplane like Hanable Lecter..... Ace_______________
 
Some have argued, fairly persuasively, that at contact distance, and from a concealed draw, a knife fighter can have a big advantage over someone with a gun, as the knife can deliver devastating wounds in the flash of an eye and is much harder to defend against/redirect/trap etc.

Here's a couple of interesting video of Silat, the Indonesian Martial art. I haven't studied it, but this guy has some smooth moves. The disarms of course rely on the gun making contact or near contact with the would be victim, and at times it seems like he sweeps himself with the muzzle, but still this guy looks like he's got some strong kung fu :D

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wjCCDXN5Pew&mode=related&search=

And here is some Silat knife fighting. If you are at contact distance with one of these dudes I'm not so sure that gun would win against knife :eek:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-2DtCUfCyfk&mode=related&search=
 
"interesting video"

Yes, and I wish I had those skills.

My comments were directed to folks who think a CCW license somehow removes them from the dangers of contact weapons.

There's a scene in a 'Simpsons' cartoon where Homer burns his high school diploma after graduating from college.

Just remember that 'super steels' like S30V or VG-10 can slash and puncture kevlar.

Just like any other discipline, you have to learn what your opponent might throw at you. Several years ago I saw a article by Ayoob about 'fending moves' designed to buy time against contact weapons for a responses like a speed rock. Very good idea.

Be sure to ask your friends in the Escrima arts about how they might hurt you with a blade.

Just remember, there are guys out there who think, "Hey, look, he brought a gun to a knife fight..."
 
This thread reminds me of a scene in Magnum P.I. He's fighting a kung fu guy. ends up pointing a gun in kung fu guy's face. Magnum says to the guy, "Don't. Nobody's that fast." Kung fu guy makes his move, screne goes black with the sound of a gunshot.

Magnum was back next week, kung fu guy wasn't.

While I was typing this I thought of a relatively safe way to see if someone can touch my arm (change shot placement) before I can get a shot off. Someone tell me if this is a psycho idea.

I aim at silouette target 5 yds out. Simulated BG stands to my right or left. We could do a variety of distances and positions, as long as BG stayed to one side and PUSHED my gun arm/hand. Heck, he could even use a board or a pole or something. As soon as I see movement, I pull the trigger. If I hit COM, I win. If I'm off, I know that, had this been a real-life situation, I would have let the BG get too close. I think I just found a good use for a paintball gun.
 
I aim at silouette target 5 yds out. Simulated BG stands to my right or left. We could do a variety of distances and positions, as long as BG stayed to one side and PUSHED my gun arm/hand. Heck, he could even use a board or a pole or something. As soon as I see movement, I pull the trigger. If I hit COM, I win. If I'm off, I know that, had this been a real-life situation, I would have let the BG get too close. I think I just found a good use for a paintball gun.
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Some friends and I messed around with a water-pistol once. We found that if you held the gun to someone's head, that person could ALWAYS smack the gun away before the trigger could be pulled and noone ever got wet. That only worked when the gun was right against the temple or forehead. When the watergun was held just a foot or two away in front of the "victim", there was no chance at all of grabbing it and everyone got a lethal dose of water to the chest.
 
I always find this topic rather interesting. I think it should go without saying that in a conflict situation having a firearm handy would be the obvious preference. That being said, it's not always possible. I used to teach Kempo and while we as instructors were taught and knew techniques intended for use against an armed attacker we were not allowed to teach them to students. Someone up the chain was afraid a student might end up in a situation where they were shot and the family would sue us saying that if they had complied they would have been ok. Good ol' sue happy California.

On occasion myself and the other instructors would train with an airsoft gun. Wearing a heavyweight GI the little yellow pellets can hardly be felt, but you could see very quickly what worked and what didn't. As has been said before, it's all about distance. I was pretty skeptical at first, but action is faster than reaction. We also tried a couple of different things. One person with the airsoft gun and one person with a knife tucked in his belt. If you haven't had a chance to do this sort of thing go get an airsoft gun, some friends and some goggles and see how good you are. You may surprise yourself, one way or the other.

Now i'm not saying anything is easy, or works everytime or even most of the time, but we've all heard of stories of even the most compliant victims being shot during a robbery. I guess its up to each of us to decide whether we want to take our chances and go down swinging.

Sorry i don't have anything to contribute in the way of good gun vs kung fu stories, which i think was the intention of this thread, but i did have a 3rd degree black belt friend who was attacked with a tire iron. Let's just say the attacker probably wished he had brought a gun.
 
Just remember that 'super steels' like S30V or VG-10 can slash and puncture kevlar.
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Off topic, but just for clairfication.....
VG-10 and S30V are no more effective and no less effective against kevlar than AUS6, 440A, 420HC, or any other lesser steel.
It all about the design of the blade.
Even a cheap grocery store icepick will puncture kevlar.
 
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