Martial Arts guru vs. a handgunner stories?

"Hey, look, he brought a gun to a knife fight..."
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Only in dream world. A man with training, situational awareness, and a gun will trump a man with training, situational awareness and a knife 99.9 percent of the time. Luck will play a major factor in that .01 percent win ratio also.

Now a man with a gun and no training and bad situational awareness would stand a much better chance of being defeated by a trained knife fighter.
 
Firstly, the gunman can engage from across the room. So BG most often isn't going to engage that close. Secondly, The gun is GOING to go off, so you better plan for where it will go, family members ect, and the muzzle better not be by your ear or your exploding eardrum will stun you. Ace
 
"a man with training, situational awareness"

For the most part, I'm inclined to agree with you. I believe that the man with better training in any discipline stands a better chance of surviving.

The problem with this debate is that police officers, soldiers and martial artists get stabbed or slashed. And they have training.

Now, the reason, as you point out, could be something as simple as 'condition white.' However, we have historical situations in the Philippines and the Kyber Pass where edged weapons had success.

Look, I'm not trying to denigrate the use of firearms. However, just because you have a CCW license and a handgun is no guaranty you're going to escape injury or even win.

(BTW, my personal protection is a Colt pistol.)
 
This thread reminds me of a scene in Magnum P.I. He's fighting a kung fu guy. ends up pointing a gun in kung fu guy's face. Magnum says to the guy, "Don't. Nobody's that fast." Kung fu guy makes his move, screne goes black with the sound of a gunshot.
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Haha that was a cool episode and I'm glad the evil kung fu bad boy got his, but in real life I think that in a hostage situation, with you as the hostage, if you were to try a disarm then 1) you better fast and good and 2) it would be best if subterfuge was used such as cowering, crying, doing it while the bad guy was in the midst of talking, or doing it while you are in the midst of saying something etc.

In the Magnum episode it was a pure contest with both participants intently concentrating on acting decisively, and if I remember right Magnum did not have the gun within 3 feet of the kung fu man, and the kung fu man had his hands at his sides! In such a circumstance it is like Magnum said: "nobody is that fast" :D
 
Never, ever, underestimate a knife! Short story. 20+ years ago I was jumped by a a couple of guys in a bathroom at a bar. As the first one came at me (armed) I drew a Buck knife I carried at the time. I slashed an artery in his arm in the proper manner (down the length of the artery). Immediately, and I mean right then blood sprayed all over both of us. It was Godawful. Trainig doesn't preare you for this. His friend turned tail and ran. The guy looked at the wound, looked at me, said "I feel hot", and passed out.
I took off my belt and made an improvised tourniquet. Good thing my instructor insisted on us taking a first aid course before we could test for our Black Belt. Some friends and I loaded him in a van and rushed him to a nearby hospital. When we took him in the nurses eyes got as big as two saucers. She thought we were both hurt and hurt badly because of all the blood covering both of us. I dropped him at triage and told the nurse I had to go get another one. We split.
Both were armed BTW. The one that reached to grab me had a lead pipe. That's why I "unzipped" his arm. He was ready to take my head off.
He survived but found out later he had tendon damage in his arm that severly restricted the use of his hand. I am in no way proud of this. I did what I had to do. It's just to illustrate a point. At close range a knife can be devastating.
It's not like the movies. "Oh it's just my arm". Yeah right! A few well placed slashes and a man bleeds out very quickly. This really put it into perspective for me. I have a friend who is a police chaplin for a large city up North.
Among his many duties he would go with next of kin to ID bodies. One psycho went after a man with a large butcher knife. More like a short sword really. He literally cut the guy into little pieces. They had what was left of him in buckets. The only way his sister ID'd him was one of the fingers floatiing in the mess had a ring on it she recognized. She immediately opassed out. Said he'd never seen a gun do that. Not saying knives are more deadly than guns. But up close they can do incredible damage!
 
"But up close they can do incredible damage!"

This is the point I was trying to make. And as you've stated, they don't train you to look at the mess once a cut has been made.

One of the aspects of my job is to sharpen knives for chefs. And I don't mean 'sharpen' in the sense that I scrape a knife on a soft Arkansas. I mean that I use professional tools, stones and fixtures to put polished edges on restaurant quality knives.

Many of these knives are Japanese laminates costing from 400 to 2,000 dollars per each. The edges are incredibly thin. They are chisel ground on one side, and hollow ground on the other.

Within a few minutes I have seen a sous-chef take down an entire section of beef.

As I have stated, my EDC knife is an Emerson HD-7 with this same style of chisel ground edge. I sharpen this pocketknife on the same stones and with the same techniques I use on chefs' knives.

But clearly, I am also a 'gun guy,' and I use the same combat stances and drills that most of you also use. I believe that attacks are messy, and probably never go as planned. In a perfect situation, I would complete a perfect Mozambique no matter how fast my aggressor might wield an edged weapon.

If we were having this debate where I work, I would hand you my personal knife and a sausage. After you made some cuts, I would ask you if I am adequately armed. I would also ask that you google Ernest Emerson, the inventor of my knife, and learn a bit about his philosophy and the training he offers.
 
Action is faster than reaction. If you're trying to control a situation you'll be reacting to your opponent and always behind the curve. This includes thinking about what you're going to do next.

For this reason, sometimes your best advantage is to strike while your oppoenent is talking. It takes .50-.75 seconds to react to a threat when concentrating, however studies show it takes between .18 and .50 seconds to react when talking because the brain has to "shift modes" as it were.

For an athletic opponent at 21 feet, it may be possible for them to reach you, even if you have drawn your weapon. Most people don't practice regularly with moving targets and if they can move unpredictibly with some speed, they may be able to reach you before you make a hit.

Many years ago I was fortunate enough to meet Robert Koga who literally wrote the book on the use of the police baton (in the pre-PR24 days) and on self-defense techniques for police officers. His advice was that all disarmament techniques are "last ditch", for those times when you can't draw (time, disadvantage, etc.) or you are unarmed and you think he's going to kill you.

He was also the one who told me the formula D + C = T or... Distance + Concealment/Cover equals time to react.
 
Back east in my home town, there was a local LEO who was into martial arts for self defense. He would at times display his talent and it was pretty cool. He would challenge anyone to hold a toy gun to his back and to pull the trigger at the first sign of his movement to disarm them. I can't ever remember him losing the challenge. The guy was good, but he was no big name person just an average joe who was good at what he did.

kenny b
 
"hold a toy gun"

I've always wondered if this drill had any real validity.

For example, we all know of guys who are incredible shots, and by that I mean bullseye champs and rifle shots of almost sniper quality.

Then they go to an IPSC match and under pressure of only a time clock, try to fire their 1911 with the safety on.

As in the case of the 21-foot rule, yes, I know it's a very real tactic. However, I doubt if I'm going to take a running charge at a felon and his loaded pistol when I just have a jackknife.

There's a very real difference between 'grappling distance' and 21 feet.

And let's set our egos aside. I was never a very fast runner even in my youth. I became a good shot only after a truckload of ammo, well made pistols and the control of a bad natural flinch. My own combat skills of birthright are more along the lines of adrenaline and a billard cue.

Using myself as an example, I'll bet that my performance on a quiet target range practicing speed rocks might even be flawless. However, I'll bet I'd freeze for a few moment's reaction time if you jumped me in a dark alley.

I just don't think people have a personal investment when facing a toy gun.

Last week, a Madison police officer shot and killed a man who pulled a gun. Upon examination, the pistol turned out to be a toy. When it's real, it's totally different. I'll bet that toy gun looked like a cannon.
 
Back east in my home town, there was a local LEO who was into martial arts for self defense. He would at times display his talent and it was pretty cool. He would challenge anyone to hold a toy gun to his back and to pull the trigger at the first sign of his movement to disarm them. I can't ever remember him losing the challenge. The guy was good, but he was no big name person just an average joe who was good at what he did.
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The biggest problem with this is he is prepared to react to a very specific and pre-determined action before the situation actually occurs. This allows him to already be in action and simply be delaying his response until he says "go." I am sure he is also telling them when to try and pull the trigger giving himself a split second head start. He is taking the "assesment" stage out of his reaction.

If he handed someone the same gun and said "sometime during the next few days come up behind me and try to shoot me" he would most likely fail every time.
 
The "toy gun" drill is a good "eye-opener" drill to run, for people who have never tried to do anything like this before. Playboypenguin and The Tourist are right, in that the drill does not factor in the adrenaline rush and time delay associated with a real-life situation. BUT, the "toy gun" drill is a measure of the "best case scenario," and it will let you know whether or not you are quick enough, given enough alertness, preparedness, and aforethought of the threat, for the disarming technique to even be possible.

In other words, if you're running the "toy gun" drill to see if your martial arts skills "will protect you against a gun," forget it. You're wasting your time, because the drill is not sufficiently representative of the real-life situation. But, if you're trying to answer the question, "In a best case scenario, is it possible for me to get this guy before he can draw and shoot me?", then the "toy gun" drill is a pretty good test.
 
The biggest problem with this is he is prepared to react to a very specific and pre-determined action before the situation actually occurs. This allows him to already be in action and simply be delaying his response until he says "go." I am sure he is also telling them when to try and pull the trigger giving himself a split second head start. He is taking the "assesment" stage out of his reaction.
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Your missing my point here which is reaction time. He didn't say go or now, his instructions to the gun holder was to react to his first move and shoot him, no one could, even when they knew it was comming.

kenny b
 
Your missing my point here which is reaction time. He didn't say go or now, his instructions to the gun holder was to react to his first move and shoot him, no one could, even when they knew it was comming.
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No, the point is he is not dealing with reaction time at all. Reaction time includes an assesment stage which is being completely bypassed. He is not "reacting"...he is simply "acting" out a pre-rehersed action. To gauge reaction time a person has to be introduced to an unexpected stimuli and then reaction time is the amount of time it takes them to recognize the threat and then act to counter it.

The very fact that he hands the person a toy gun abd then turns his back is the same as saying "go."

We did similar similar drills in the military and during my training at the state police academy. The only difference was we did not know what it was coming. It would usually occur while we were in formation and we never knew when or where. Every cadet failed to survive the mock encounter. It was used as a means to show the recruits, many of whom fancied themseves ninjas, that a bad guy with a gun will get you everytime if you are caught unaware. It was a lesson in being aware of your surroundings.
 
To gauge reaction time a person has to be introduced to an unexpected stimuli and then reaction time is the amount of time it takes them to recognize the threat and then act to counter it.
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Boy this is kinda like talking to the wife!

The reaction time is of the guy with the gun reacting to a defensive move of the person with the gun in his back.
Hence the amount of time it takes him to pull the trigger when he realizes the guy is making his move. I've seen it done, please don't tell me it's impossible and not a true test.

kenny b
 
I've seen it done, please don't tell me it's impossible and not a true test.
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What you have seen done is a pre-determined action to a pre-planned occurence. It is not a true test of reaction time.

Read Samuria and a few others posts again. Maybe you will start to see the distinction.
 
I can understand people's frustration, but we're all on the same side and we should be responding to valid information and skills, while debunking some very dangerous urban legends.

Admittedly, we tossed terms around like "play" and "toy gun." Perhaps we should have used terms like 'scenario,' or 'practice.'

As you know, I'm very much against this "knife to a gunfight" drivel. I'm sure the older guys take kind of a been-there-done-that stance, but a guy with a crisp new CCW license might think he has nothing to worry about.

We see lots of those rubber knife trainers. My guess is that rubber knives are a part of many contact martial arts disciplines.

To that, consider a friend coming up to you saying, "Hey, The Tourist is looking for you--he's mad, drunk, full of adrenaline and carrying a Japanese sashimi knife."

In point of fact, the proper course is to call 9-1-1, not make insipid jokes.

If the 1984 Miami FBI shooting taught us nothing else it's the fact that a man who's been shot, and in the act of dying, can live for another 90 seconds.

I don't care what kind of a fancy-schmancy combat weapon you have. If I have 90 seconds to work you over with a Japanese fish knife you won't be repeating jokes for long.

And that's the point. Help each other. Suggest magazine articles or google a few links for the members here. We're the good guys. Let's teach each other to stay alive.
 
"Bringing a knife to a gun fight" does have certain requirements for the gunman. First the gunman must kept enough distance between the two so as not to be cut while delivering gunfire. Second the gunman must be able to hit his adversary. Thrid the gunman must be able to transition from traditional center mass to the pelvic girdle or head. If the gunman does his job the classic "don't bring a knife to a gunfight" line is perfectly safe and there isn't a thing the knife guy can do about it. For the unprepared, under trained, or underestimating it could be human steaks for dinner.
 
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