Martial Arts guru vs. a handgunner stories?

Ive asked this a gazillion times already in my head before but never had the chance to let it escape until now.. ive known too many martial arts trainer, experts, students, etc. who are not so into guns or even anti-firearms.

With all due respect to martial-artists (of any sort), Just wondering what will happen if a martial artist together with a shooter comes into a serious incident.. or even comes in a confrontation with each other...

do you have any real life stories to tell? or are these just what we see in the movies?
 
Tucson, Arizona: 1967, . . . 5' 5" red headed, short tempered, Air Force martial arts instructor VS local "bad dude".

They had had a few run ins in the past and of course, . . . the AF guy won all of them. The next to the last run in, the bar owner saw it coming and ran em outside, . . . Red held the door for the other guy and while was taking his jacket off, . . . local bad dude pulled out a .38 snubby. He fired 6 rounds at probably 8 feet or less, . . . 1 missed, . . . the rest were superficial except the one that went just past his belley button, . . . missed his spine also by just enough.

Red spent a little while in the hospital, . . . and when he got well, . . . they had their last physical confrontation, . . . and though I didn't see it, . . . I heard that the bad dude did not make out real well. Fact is, . . . I heard he spent a real long time in the hospital, . . . then had to face the legal music for his shooting spree.

Anyway, . . . you asked, . . . may God bless,
Dwight
 
suppose it depends on what sort of martial arts, some would help you against a gun, while some are taylored to threats like that.
 
When I lived in Houston and my Dad was going through his final year in medical school (and putting in time at the hospital), he told me about an armed robbery incident.

Apparantly a guy was holding a pistol on the clerk of a 7-11, when a black belt in Tae Kwon Doe (sp?) was in the store. The black belt walked up to the counter and the gunman turned and pointed it at him to warn him back. The black belt, as he had done countless times in the dojo, used his lightening reflexes and skill to disarm the badguy. Well, I should say he TRIED to disarm him, because as he went for the gun the badguy shot him in the head and he died a couple hours later.

Another time a Karate instructer and one of his students went to a local bar together. They got into an argument with a couple of the rednecks, and ended up in a fight. The rednecks beat the crap out of both of them, breaking ribs, noses, and many stitches. My Dad was going to give the instructer a shot for the pain for when he stitched him up, but the guy said, "No need for that, pain is just a state of mind.." :D. So my Dad was like, yeah o.k. buddy- and started stitching him up. After the second stich and much discomfort, the instructer said, "O.k., o.k., give me the shot!!".
 
My Karate instructor (back in high school) tried to grab a gun from the guy that had it pointed at him. Said guy pulled the trigger, shot him in the leg and did a number on the hand that was grabbing the gun.
 
I've trained under four grand masters. Three Korean, one Iranian. Maybe, just maybe one of the GMs didn't own a gun. But I know for a fact three did own and shoot guns. Why? Well one of them, Chu, was a Korean AF officer before he came to American and while he was not in the Korean War as a soldier, he did experienced it as a kid. The other Korean was in Nam as a ROK. The Iranian was in the Sha's SF before he came to America.

So that may color their experiences (in short they experienced war and knew a hell of a lot more than theory.)

I've seen some brochures from Wado Ki Kia saying you don't need guns or knives cause Wado Ki will do it all. The other guys in the schools I know kind of roll up their eyes when they see such.

Now as what will happen if a martial artist meets a shooter in a fight? What kind of fight? Fist fight that turns into a shooting? Stickup? Dark ally? No real SD incident starts in a vacume.

So it depends on how skilled and savy both of them are. I've seen some real rotten shots in my time, and some pitiful martial artist. But I've seen some real wicked ones, both shooters and martial artist to.

And of course, I'm both a martial artist and a shooter who as competed in both disiplines, studied under people who had been in real life confrontations, and done this since high school and college. So that colors my views.
 
I think the most important factor is distance. If you are too far to strike or disarm someone with a gun, all of your martial arts experience will be practically useless (unless you know how to catch bullets with your teeth :D).

Certain arts are better than others for disarming an armed opponent. Aikido and Japanese Juijitsu are probably some of the better ones since the motions are very quick and the actions are generally not projected. Certain arts like Tae Kwon Do and Shotokon project the strikes and are very easy to predict. Certain styles of kung fu are also very good at disarming attackers.

I was trained that money is replacable. If an armed attacker is robbing me, just give up the money. Only fight if there is no option. As a martial artist, you have to move your arm or leg to strike your opponent while all your attacker has to do is move his finger. Heck, any sudden moves on your mart may cause the attacker to flinch and shoot you.

Basically, it comes down to necessity. If it is absolutely not necessary, do not engage an armed attacker using only martial arts. If you think you are going to get shot anyway, better to defend yourself.
 
"Hangunners" ARE martial artists. While I've studied martial arts under some people who were NOT also firearms users, it's been very rare. I am very suspect of anyone who claims to teach self-defense but rules out a gun as an option.
 
"Hangunners" ARE martial artists.

You beat me to the punch.

I would say for example IDPA is a martial art without a doubt and a very deadly one.

I personally would always prefer to be armed in any type of fight. .45,club,knife,pepper spray,samurai sword,ball bat,something.

"The only fair fight is the one I walk away from"-Clint Smith
 
Assuming both people are of good skill; if there is any kind of distance between the two, the person with the gun will win. Your arms and legs simply can't reach far enough to defend against a gun unless the bad guy is holding it right up to you. Even then, as pointed out before, it's the movement of an arm versus the movement of a finger. Martial arts still have their value, as you might not always have a gun, but even a "guru" could do nothing if the guy with a gun has some distance on them and is a good shot.
 
Last edited:
"The only fair fight is the one I walk away from"-Clint Smith

Or something like that I don't like misqoutes wrong attributions.

Maybe it was "the one I win" anyway you get the idea.
 
I've been in the Martail Arts since I was 10 years old. I carry Master Rank in Tang Soo Do and a 1st degree Black belt in Isshin Ryu. Been shooting about as long. First off combat shooting is a Martial Art in every sense of the word. Most folks go out to the range and are basically target shooting. Marksmanship is a part of combat shooting but only a part. It really surprises people that practice from the traditional "dueling" stance to have them even just have to shoot from a draw from concealment.
It's a real eye opener for most. Add having to shoot while moving, on the ground, in a chair, from a vehicle, and so on they realise the training they have been doing will do little to get them through a real confrontation. Even set a timer up to add a little pressure and it's amazing to watch them try to get their guns out in a reasonable time and engage a target. Martial refers to war. Handgun combat is certainly a division of training for war (rather on the level of nations or individuals war is war). A similar situation existed in the unarmed Martial Arts and still does in some instances. I am making reference to many of the traditional, artistically oriented Martial Arts.
If you just train in pre-arranged combat sequences such as one-step sparring, Kata, and non-contact fighting you are essentially training in the equivalent of target shooting. Yes you may throw a perfect sidekick, reverse punch or whatever. But contrary to an often perpetuated myth that may not save your beans when things get rough. Point fighting for instance, You bow in, square off, and begin to dance. First one to get within an inch of someones face or primary target "Ippon" the "fight" is stopped. The guy is awarded or not awarded a point based on what the judges thought was good or bad about the technique thrown. What has that got to do with combat?
Although developing your technique through solo practice, striking various types of training devices and so on are useful and necessary to becoming proficient you must alter and learn to apply what you have learned to a living, breathing, thinking, trying to tear your head off opponent or you are learning Martial dance, not fighting. Just like a target shooter than can score amazing hits at 25-50 yards by taking the exact stance, half a breath let out, sight alignment, sight picture, and on and on is an incredible skill in and of itself. You just don't have time for all that perfect technique when someone(s) is trying to blow your head off. My point to this long winded dissertation?
After the Samurai and others were disarmed and not allowed to practice their trade for real the practice changed. It went from being a War Art (Jitsu) to a means of self development (Do). Perfection of technique and self were emphasised over combat effectiveness. It became a game as opposed to a lifesaving skill. It got too far from it's roots. It got to where their was little left of combat and more acrobatics/dance than anything else. Could some still make it work? Sure. But they usually had real combat experience. You see the same thing happening in shooting.
Look at the shooting events where "race (space?)" guns, barely their holsters, timers and so on are present. What started off with Mr. Cooper and others as trying to develop a means to practice and improve ones skills a armed combat became a game of the fastest person, with the most expensive gun, optical sights, compensators, trick holsters, and on and on. Winning the game became the object. Not winning the battle. So I've gone round about in dealing with your question. But for a purpose.
True Martial Arts encompass all aspects of fighting. Armed and unarmed. Just as the Samurai trained with their Katana's they also learned unarmed techniques for worst case situations. Many practiced with the Bo (long staff), Jo (short staff), Tanto (knife), and so on. They might not be able to carry or use their weapon of choice sometimes. If pressed tightly into a corner they might not be able to draw their Katana. All they might be able to do is use a knife, or knife hand (Shuto). In the more modern schools of shooting/Martial Arts they are mixing empty hand, knife, stick, handgun, long gun, and every possible weapon that might come into play. Good!
Every situation is not answered by a handgun. In tight quarters if your opponent has their gun drawn it might be faster to try a disarm than try to draw. Unlike the entertaining but dim witted movies no one would throw away a modern firearm to duel to the death empty handed with their opponent. At least not anyone with any brains.
The great scene in the Indiana Jones movies in which Harrison Ford simply shot the monster armed with the sword was perfect. But what about when you can't wear a .45 Colt revolver (S&W?) strapped top your side? Someone put it well awhile back. Gun people for a long time used to view every problem as a "gun problem". Empty hand practitioners viewed everything from an "empty hands" perspective. The real world is not so one dimensional. So as to your question. To me a modern Martial Artist must know the tools of the time (Samurai-Sword, Current day-gun) and the timeless tools of self defense (our bodies).
To get to the meat of your question I and others I have trained with have successfully dealt with armed opponents. I'm still here! But usually I'm carrying at least one gun (usually two), a knife, and the greatest defensive skill their is "awareness" whenever I can. Let me end with a quote fromSensei Toguchi of Goju Ryu Shoreikan when asked if an unarmed Martial Artist could defend himself against an opponent with a gun. "You ask if a man may becoime sufficiently skilled in the Martial Arts to empty handedly defeat an opponent with a gun? My answer is," yes of course this is possible. But in addition to skill, the Martial Artist must be very lucky. And the man with the gun must be very stupid". The world is full of lucky and stupid people. A a point about luck. No matter how good you get at unarmed and armed combat luck will always play a part. Rather a "lucky punch" or bullet. Skill will only get you so far. Try using simunitions against other armed opponents sometime. No matter how skilled you are with a handgun you will still sometimes "eat paint". Life has no guarantees except death. Hopefully Martial Arts training will keep that from happening until it is time.
 
To me a modern Martial Artist must know the tools of the time

How true Siglockuar! While nachucka sticks are not common on the streets, guns, knives, clubs, and yes, the Bo are common (get a mop and break the mop off with your foot and you have a staff or Bo.)
 
This one time I saw Chuck Norris...

There is a good reason that armies that relied heavily on the traditional martial arts or hand to hand fighting, such as China, Japan, Native Americans, etc fell so easily to smaller European troop numbers armed with the first firearms.
 
I have practiced martial arts for many years and if I had to face an opponent intent on harming me I would use any and all means (including guns) at my disposal to avoid injury.
 
There is a good reason that armies that relied heavily on the traditional martial arts or hand to hand fighting, such as China, Japan, Native Americans, etc fell so easily to smaller European troop numbers armed with the first firearms.

What...? :confused:

China had the first firearms.

European nations never, ever conquered China or Japan.

Native Americans were killed primarily by disease, though I'll admit that they really didn't stand much of a chance against the Europeans on the battlefield.
 
China had the first firearms.
China invented gunpowder and "may" have created the first crude firearms (I say may because there is alot of historical dispute over that topic) but they are far from the ones that perfected them or the first to put them into common practice.
European nations never, ever conquered China or Japan.
I do not think I ever mentioned anything about being conquered? During expeditions, travels, and attempts of expansion, conquest and trade Asian forces often clashed with European explorers and armies. Not to mention times when European countries would arm smaller asian factions for use against other asian groups.
 
Do a search on Alex Gong. He was a world champion kickboxer who got shot and killed in SF in 2003 in a street confrontation.
 
Dead Black Belts

I studied Shotokan Karate for about two years. Basically, I stuck around long enough to become better than the average guy in a barfight, and circumstances were such that I couldn't continue training.

However, two of the sensei at the dojo often traveled throughout the U.S. and overseas teaching other blackbelts in shotokan how to be better blackbelts, so it was absolute top-quality instruction. One of my sensei talked about guns one time. He said he'd perfected the craft of shotokan karate to as fine a point as probably anyone alive, and that if faced with a gun, he'd be dead. He said that if the gunman came into his reach, then he gave his chances no better than 50/50, but he'd probably be dead.
 
Being skilled with your hands and feet, even if very highly skilled, does not guarantee anything. You can do everthing right and still die, gun or no.

H2H is a last ditch defense, and on airliners and such about the only realistic defense! When I board an airliner, I still carry weapons... my hands, feet, elbows, and knees. People who rely only on guns board aircraft truely unarmed.
 
Back
Top