manual safety vs no manual safety
- Thread starter chadk7
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I, for one, dont feel that I'm inadequate with training to fail at this. I also use the gun for more than strictly 'defense'. Theres a couple reasons.
First of all, if you have trouble operating a thumb safety, sell all your guns cause you wont be much better operating the trigger either.
Secondly, You should be concerned with controlling all of you digits on your hand... and not obsess over the control of one digit.
Lastly, thats what the challage was. Now that thats clear.... feel free to participate and show all the documented cases.
Ahhh... so you acknowledge that the thumb safety can be a benefit in the EXACT scenario I described (holstering gun/glock leg).
orionengnr
New member
I don't select my carry gun based on what someone may/may not be able to do with it should he be able to wrest it from me.
I select my carry gun based on what I can do with it.
I shoot a 1911 better than anything else. I train with it, I shoot competition with it, I carry it. I am totally comfortable with it and my abilities with it.
I select my carry gun based on what I can do with it.
I shoot a 1911 better than anything else. I train with it, I shoot competition with it, I carry it. I am totally comfortable with it and my abilities with it.
Please bear in mind that for me, at least, the thumb safety on the M&P9 full size is less than ideal ergonomically. If it were at all easy, when standing calmly in the gun store, to flick it off - that would be one thing. It isn't
I suppose I could train to use it, but the placement would always have me at less than optimum.
I suppose I could train to use it, but the placement would always have me at less than optimum.
Well, how about this? If you can consistently get the safety where you want it (off), when you want it (draw stroke), without conscious effort, you are probably good to go. If not, practice more or select a pistol without that kind of safety.
For me, I sweep the safety off at a particular part of my draw with a 1911. I don't have the grip I like without pressing down on the safety at some point. So, if I draw, the safety comes off (unless I make the effort to keep it on). I'm not worried about forgetting to take the safety off with my 1911.
For me, I sweep the safety off at a particular part of my draw with a 1911. I don't have the grip I like without pressing down on the safety at some point. So, if I draw, the safety comes off (unless I make the effort to keep it on). I'm not worried about forgetting to take the safety off with my 1911.
Wow, it's about time we started over on this thread.
First of all, to those who suggest that if you can't work a thumb safety, you can't work the trigger. Well, maybe not, if we have to use our thumbs. Ever hear the expression, "All thumbs?" I would suggest that most of us do things better with our fingers, especially our trigger finger, than with our thumbs. Or thumb, if we actually shoot with one hand.
Second, there seems to be more than one line of thinking here. It isn't manual safety versus no safety. It is a 1911-style thumb safety versus a frame mounted safety versus no safety. You might even throw in guns with safeties that are really optional for use, referring to double action guns that are (we believe) safe to carry without the safety applied. The fact that not all safeties are the same complicates the discussion but cannot be avoided.
Also, we tend to assume away too many problems. Guns do get dropped, for instance. Accidents happen and a safety may prevent serious consequences. I know that a Glock claims that nothing will make it go off without the trigger being pulled and it probably won't. As far as that goes, it is a safe pistol. All you need is something to prevent the trigger from being pulled accidentally, as when being holstered. Seems like a grip safety would have been a better solution than that little lever in the face of the trigger. Incredibly enough, both methods have been around about the same time.
I'm afraid nothing will prevent someone pulling the trigger (just to make sure it's still there and still works) when they shouldn't. Maybe carrying chamber empty has advantages after all.
And by the way, I understand that accidents with long guns are more frequent than accidents with handguns.
First of all, to those who suggest that if you can't work a thumb safety, you can't work the trigger. Well, maybe not, if we have to use our thumbs. Ever hear the expression, "All thumbs?" I would suggest that most of us do things better with our fingers, especially our trigger finger, than with our thumbs. Or thumb, if we actually shoot with one hand.
Second, there seems to be more than one line of thinking here. It isn't manual safety versus no safety. It is a 1911-style thumb safety versus a frame mounted safety versus no safety. You might even throw in guns with safeties that are really optional for use, referring to double action guns that are (we believe) safe to carry without the safety applied. The fact that not all safeties are the same complicates the discussion but cannot be avoided.
Also, we tend to assume away too many problems. Guns do get dropped, for instance. Accidents happen and a safety may prevent serious consequences. I know that a Glock claims that nothing will make it go off without the trigger being pulled and it probably won't. As far as that goes, it is a safe pistol. All you need is something to prevent the trigger from being pulled accidentally, as when being holstered. Seems like a grip safety would have been a better solution than that little lever in the face of the trigger. Incredibly enough, both methods have been around about the same time.
I'm afraid nothing will prevent someone pulling the trigger (just to make sure it's still there and still works) when they shouldn't. Maybe carrying chamber empty has advantages after all.
And by the way, I understand that accidents with long guns are more frequent than accidents with handguns.
danez71, you seem to be contradicting yourself a bit.
On the one hand, you think anybody who doubts their fine motor control with regard to the safety should just hang up their guns.
On the other hand, you think the safety can prevent a Glock-leg scenario, implying that you doubt your own fine motor control with regard to keeping your finger out of the trigger guard area.
Which is it?
BTW, I don't think many people on here are saying what everybody else should do with regard to their equipment; I think most are offering reasons why they chose what they did for themselves.
On the one hand, you think anybody who doubts their fine motor control with regard to the safety should just hang up their guns.
On the other hand, you think the safety can prevent a Glock-leg scenario, implying that you doubt your own fine motor control with regard to keeping your finger out of the trigger guard area.
Which is it?
BTW, I don't think many people on here are saying what everybody else should do with regard to their equipment; I think most are offering reasons why they chose what they did for themselves.
Neither. Youre twsting things a bit.
I worded the 1st statement that way to show the hypocrosy and ridiculousness of his statement of (paraphrasing) if you cant keep your finger off the trigger you should sell your guns. By that logic, if he cant operate the safety, he shoudl sell his guns because he's not likely going to be able to operate the trigger. Read the whole statement... its all there.
I dont really doubt my motor skills as Ive said before. And, again as stated above, there was just a thread a couple weeks ago showing the holster snagging the trigger and blew off part of his butt check. NOTHING to do with finger in trigger guard. There are several threads similar to it. I already gave the example. Youre selective reading or interpretive reading.
Not 'many'.... and I never said that. They way a couple posters are replying, they are wording it that manual safeties are a poor choice due to XYZ and they are failing to realize that XYZ doesnt affect other people or that having a manual safety can be a benefit.
Take the example above I pointed out. He disputes my post that it can be of benefit while holstering (just 1 example) and then just a mere few posts later he says it can be a benefit while holstering.
He basically disputed my example to show his knowledge and then uses my example as a benefit to show his knowledge. He contradicted himself and I called it out.
He's arguing to be right rather than arguing the pros and cons..
And I'll say it again.... buy what you want. I'm all for it. Its just that the reasoning often doesnt hold water and is more of a catchy phrase or streatched rationalization.
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danez71, I remember that thread. The holster in question was badly worn, and collapsing inward toward the trigger. Improper maintenance of support equipment, as I recall.
That wouldn't have happened with a good quality leather or kydex holster. I believe the OP of the post even conceded he really should have replaced the holster prior to the incident.
So, while it wasn't akin to a finger in the trigger guard, it would have been akin to sticking a J-frame into a pocket that also held keys, etc.
Going back to safeties, I personally have carried autos cocked and locked (1911, CZ75B); safety on, hammer down (M9 on active duty, safety on was a requirement); safety off, hammer down (92FS Centurion on my own time; PX4 recently); decocked, no safety (various SIGs); DAK (SIG P239); and striker (Kahr PM9).
While I'm comfortable with any of the above, lately I've been trending more and more toward either K-frame revolvers, J-frame revolvers, or my new PX4s with safety off, hammer down. After years and years of practicing DA, I'm pretty quick and pretty accurate with a DA pull, and I just don't like worrying about the safety.
Although I've noted the problem I have to overcome with 1911, CZ75, etc isn't taking the safety off for the initial shot - it's the tendency to reapply the safety reflexively after a double-tap or string. I would not like to discover I'd unconsciously done that after a BG suddenly continues or resumes his threat behavior.
That wouldn't have happened with a good quality leather or kydex holster. I believe the OP of the post even conceded he really should have replaced the holster prior to the incident.
So, while it wasn't akin to a finger in the trigger guard, it would have been akin to sticking a J-frame into a pocket that also held keys, etc.
Going back to safeties, I personally have carried autos cocked and locked (1911, CZ75B); safety on, hammer down (M9 on active duty, safety on was a requirement); safety off, hammer down (92FS Centurion on my own time; PX4 recently); decocked, no safety (various SIGs); DAK (SIG P239); and striker (Kahr PM9).
While I'm comfortable with any of the above, lately I've been trending more and more toward either K-frame revolvers, J-frame revolvers, or my new PX4s with safety off, hammer down. After years and years of practicing DA, I'm pretty quick and pretty accurate with a DA pull, and I just don't like worrying about the safety.
Although I've noted the problem I have to overcome with 1911, CZ75, etc isn't taking the safety off for the initial shot - it's the tendency to reapply the safety reflexively after a double-tap or string. I would not like to discover I'd unconsciously done that after a BG suddenly continues or resumes his threat behavior.
Microgunner
New member
I've solved all these questions. I carry a HK P7 PSP. Manual safety yet requires no additional steps to employ, cannot be accidentally engaged or disengaged, is absolutely ambidextrous.
HK got this one right.
HK got this one right.
Well I train for speed in the draw, part of it is the safety. My friends and I are competitive, we try to out draw each other and shoot the target. I have used the 1911 for this for awhile now and it like my hunting shotgun is a no brain thing. A pheas flushes I put the gun up and flick safety off in one fluid motion same as drawing the 1911 getting on target and run the mag dry.
Glad you mentiond a gun fight, I have been shot before by a un friendly person. I dont wish to be shot again. I carry what I can shoot, I carry the tool I can work. It dont take any thought at all to draw unsafe and fire.
They do make guns without a safety and if that is your thing then go and buy them. I wont, and do not wish to be schooled. I offered my comments and then things went the way they usually go on this forum. To each his own, now why dont most folks follow that these days? Why must others attempt to convince me the way Ido things isnt right? or could get me killed? My Uncle Don wasa sheriff for 30 years he taught me well. Uncles were Marines taught me well. Classes Itook in the early 80s also taught me well.
When the guy shot me, a friend of mine was standing next to me, he ran off and left me there bleeding. He was that scared of being shot.
Now dont say iwoulda done this or done that till you been there. I dont fault the friend, he ran for his life as MOST WILL DO. and that is OK too.
By all means, I suggest everyone carry the tool with which they are the most proficient. If you don't feel safe without a safety, please carry a weapon with a safety ... and use it appropriately.
On the other hand, if you have demonstrated competence in carrying a weapon without a manual safety, feel free to carry such a weapon.
As I recall (and it's difficult now, without going back to Page 1), the OP asked for opinions. As riled up as some people get about other people's opinions - in the Internet, no less - perhaps it would be best if you didn't carry a weapon at all.
As for me, my opinion - based upon tens of thousands of rounds fired and thousands of draws and re-holsters - is that I do not need or want a manual safety on my self-defense weapon. (FWIW, I was not given a choice by Uncle Sam. Many of those tens of thousands of rounds fired were fired through a Beretta M9 with a manual safety.)
If you - based upon similar or greater experience - need or want a manual safety on your self-defense weapon ... it's a free country. Personally, I'm not going to try to "convert" you if you're not interested in converting.
On the other hand, if you have demonstrated competence in carrying a weapon without a manual safety, feel free to carry such a weapon.
As I recall (and it's difficult now, without going back to Page 1), the OP asked for opinions. As riled up as some people get about other people's opinions - in the Internet, no less - perhaps it would be best if you didn't carry a weapon at all.
As for me, my opinion - based upon tens of thousands of rounds fired and thousands of draws and re-holsters - is that I do not need or want a manual safety on my self-defense weapon. (FWIW, I was not given a choice by Uncle Sam. Many of those tens of thousands of rounds fired were fired through a Beretta M9 with a manual safety.)
If you - based upon similar or greater experience - need or want a manual safety on your self-defense weapon ... it's a free country. Personally, I'm not going to try to "convert" you if you're not interested in converting.
I agree here, and it doesnt matter what gun you carry. The SA's with safeties can actually be a lot scarier in this respect too.
I keep hearing all the pro safety people going on about just how safe they are, and have to wonder just how much they actually really carry one. I carried a 1911 more than any other gun up until about 10 years ago now, and I found my thumb safety off on a regular basis at the end of the day, and no matter what the holster I was using was. I also had a few out of the box with non functioning grip safeties. All of you who carry one did and continually do check them, right?
I see a lot of people putting faith in a mechanical gizmo, and preaching to others that their choice is unsafe because it lacks one. The gizmo has nothing to do with safety, thats the thing between your ears. Everything else is just gingerbread and feel good.
Regardless what you carry, you have to spend the time and effort to be proficient with it. If you feel the need for a safety, then get a gun that has one and practice with it until there is no thought to working it. If the gun you choose doesnt have one, do the same thing.
For the most part, this is all just foolishness, and people arguing over silly stuff. Ive been told by more people, and people who obviously had no experience with the gun I carry (other than having heard scary stories), tell me its unsafe because it doesnt have a manual safety. If you feel that way, rather than just pass on scary stories and your insecurities, why not get one of what scares you, put some quality time in with it, and prove me wrong. I have a pretty good feeling that the with actual experience, things will be a little different afterwards.
If there was one gun that was more meant for someone with some experience, its the P7. While they are great guns, they basically need dedication if you choose to carry them, and switching back and forth is not really a good idea.
While its as safe as anything else, it does have some quirks that need your attention.
Comon sense as they may seem, Ive already personally seen people have their finger on the trigger and squeeze cock the gun. It worked like its supposed to.
If you think the Glock is a problem in "trained" hands, ask the NJSP how they made out when they first started issuing them.
The other big issue is guaranteeing to yourself that the gun is cocked each and every time its in your hand, and stays that way until reholstered or put down.
I agree. But all that doesnt matter. Its still a good example of how a thumb safety could have prevented that.
A lot of things could have prevented that.... but its still a good example.
Hey... for the 3-4th time... buy what ever you want. Its all good. Just a lot of the reasons and dismisive comments against thumbe safeties dont hold up.
There is only one right answer here folks. The correct one is the one that YOU are proficient with.
While it "may" help, theres no guarantee that it will. In that case, if it were a 1911 that the safety had come off, and the gun had rode up, like they tend to do with that type holster, the grip safety would have been disengaged when the gun was pushed back down, and the lighter SA trigger would now make things even worse. "Faith" in the gizmo, isnt the answer, and can often be a problem.
Yup, dont be cheap, and buy a proper holster. In cases like those, sometimes no holster at all is actually the better choice.
This works both ways, and in either case, unless its defective, the gun isnt the problem.
Yes. I train alot and I still got several symptoms associated with intense stress. I did ok but have enough sense to understand that what I felt could cause those less trained trouble. More stress may have caused me trouble. It definitely sucked.
I feel confident to share my experience with others. I could care less who uses it and who poo poo's it.
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