You may be an exception but I have experienced the effects of intense stress while trying to use a gun. I did react as I trained but I certainly felt the effects which included tunnel vision, hearing loss, and slow motion feeling. My draw arm felt as if it was being held down or heavy.
manual safety vs no manual safety
- Thread starter chadk7
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You may be an exception but I have experienced the effects of intense stress while trying to use a gun. I did react as I trained but I certainly felt the effects which included tunnel vision, hearing loss, and slow motion feeling. My draw arm felt as if it was being held down or heavy.
That's probably a normal reaction, no matter what the stressful situation is. Most of us will probably experience a very stressful situation when we're behind the wheel, for instance. But it sounds to me like the reactions are all good reactions, except perhaps for the perceived inability to lift your gun. This feeling of time slowing down somehow seems to give you more time to do something precisely. That is an awkward and probably totally inaccurate way to put it but that's how I would describe it.
In my own experiences, such as they have been, these sensations are not necessarily split second things. They same things can seem to occur over the course of several minutes, perhaps even longer, when you are doing something very intensely, especially if there is risk involved and probably just as much when there's no risk involved at all, like doing some sort of public performance. And just like an actor or singer doing their lines, you can still blow it. But obviously, you have to rehearse.
Break a leg!
In my own experiences, such as they have been, these sensations are not necessarily split second things. They same things can seem to occur over the course of several minutes, perhaps even longer, when you are doing something very intensely, especially if there is risk involved and probably just as much when there's no risk involved at all, like doing some sort of public performance. And just like an actor or singer doing their lines, you can still blow it. But obviously, you have to rehearse.
Break a leg!
Hunter safety class will instruct you how to safely handle a gun, I suggest you take one. Safeties are important for your own safety mostly.
But they make a lot of guns have no safety for thse dont want one, also many come wit ha safety for those of us want one. Buy the gun you want and let it go.
I cant understand why everyone thinks they know what is good for everyone else, is this a liberal forum or what?
But they make a lot of guns have no safety for thse dont want one, also many come wit ha safety for those of us want one. Buy the gun you want and let it go.
I cant understand why everyone thinks they know what is good for everyone else, is this a liberal forum or what?
Lets have a contest. Lets find as many documented cases of glock leg etc as possible and then do the same for the safety accidentally engaging during a firefight and we'll see which happens more often.
I'll generally agree HOWEVER... youre not reading it in the right context so your reply doesnt really fit (I'm not trying to be offesive).
He said: "Why complicate your defense with fine motor skill manual safeties? "
His statement didnt have anything to do with type/feel of the trigger. He was simply stating/asking 'why complicate things by adding 1 more step'.
Exactly.
I contend that if you cant control your thumb in a stressful situation.... then you aren't going to be able to control your index finger very well either.
Heck... having an an opposable thumb is one of the big differences us humans have over other primates. We've had it for a looooong time and I think we've become pretty good at using it too.
On a side note.... I'm not promoting thumb safties. I'm all for buy what you want and like. I just dont fall into the camp of "I wont be able to control my thumb but eveything else will be fine".
Deaf Smith
New member
No the contest would be to find how many AD/NDs there are with Glocks, Sigs, Smiths, Colts, Rugers, H&Ks, etc....
Should not be hard to find examples of each.
In fact the NYPD had accidents with DA revolvers to, even after they turned them all to DAO actions.
You find more Glock AD/NDs cause Glocks have taken a huge share of the LEO market. And no matter what weapon they used some would have accidents.
If you want to look for stats among TRAINED shooters, just see how many IDPA and IPSC shooters have AD/NDs (but I suspect you will find very few, with any weapon.)
Now as for which is better, well some view the safety as both a way to stop a AD/ND and also to help thwart a gun snatch. That IS a good thing. Others prefer the simplicity of the snatch-n-shoot of a DAO.
I prefer the Glock and DA revolver BUT I've used 1911s and P-35s in competition alot and they will do fine to IF TRAINED WELL.)
To each his own. Both have good points and bad.
Deaf
No. You're missing the point. I didnt intend to only single out glocks. Glock leg is just a common term.
The contest is to compare how many times simply flicking the safety ON would have staved off a AD/ND vs how many times a a thumb safety accidently got fipped ON during a firefight.
This isnt a brand or model issue.
The most clear cut example would be the shot in the leg while holstering.
There was a thread a couple weeks ago that was a perfect example.
I dont remember ever seeing a thread about a safety getting flipped on during a firefight.
Who said off safing a 1911 is a fine motor skill? The thumb is on top of the safety from the draw and only a downward movement of the thumb is required. Extended safeties are common and very easy to use.
If that's a fine motor skill, then so is pulling the trigger.
An example of a fine motor skill would be thumb release of the slide stop on a Glock, as well as some other pistols.
HOWEVER: If the skill and training required to reliably take the safety off a pistol while under stress is too challenging, then one shouldn't undertake the task of learning the process. Hat's off to those who understand their limitations.
Now I'm not referring to those who simply prefer guns without manual safeties. Just those who find it too complicated and don't want to learn.
Well, actually all primates have opposable thumbs and from what I've seen, so do a few other animals. But we digress.
There is a problem already mentioned of how making safeties and slide releases increases the possibility of their being switched to the other position when you don't want it. That shouldn't be a problem with the slide release because it only used briefly and the same function can be done by pulling back the slide and releasing it, which is actually the way the manual says to do it for some pistols. In fact it's called the slide stop, not the slide release. Either way, it is a trade-off between ease of use for the safety and resistance to accidental switching.
Ruger, for their part, approached the problem on a P345, which has a slide mounted safety and hammer drop, by making the safety lever very flat but checkered. You can't carry it cocked with the safety on, so I kind of think they expected most people not to leave the safety on. Some of their older automatics just had a de-cocker, no safety, but maybe something caused them to think a little differently. More than likely it was to satisify some legal safety requirement somewhere.
Rarely is the safety the only difference between two different automatics.
There is a problem already mentioned of how making safeties and slide releases increases the possibility of their being switched to the other position when you don't want it. That shouldn't be a problem with the slide release because it only used briefly and the same function can be done by pulling back the slide and releasing it, which is actually the way the manual says to do it for some pistols. In fact it's called the slide stop, not the slide release. Either way, it is a trade-off between ease of use for the safety and resistance to accidental switching.
Ruger, for their part, approached the problem on a P345, which has a slide mounted safety and hammer drop, by making the safety lever very flat but checkered. You can't carry it cocked with the safety on, so I kind of think they expected most people not to leave the safety on. Some of their older automatics just had a de-cocker, no safety, but maybe something caused them to think a little differently. More than likely it was to satisify some legal safety requirement somewhere.
Rarely is the safety the only difference between two different automatics.
Ah common, why does this have to be so difficult?
IMHO it's just a matter of how you like to carry. If you carry a SA or DA/SA cocked and loaded, of course you gonna need a safety.
If you carry a pistol decocked but without firing pin safety or hammer block safety in DA/SA, you need a safety.
If you carry a DA/SA in decocked and it has hammer block or firing pin safeties, I don't see no need for a safety, but decockers could come in handy. Same with DAO and semi-cocked Glocks.
IMHO it's just a matter of how you like to carry. If you carry a SA or DA/SA cocked and loaded, of course you gonna need a safety.
If you carry a pistol decocked but without firing pin safety or hammer block safety in DA/SA, you need a safety.
If you carry a DA/SA in decocked and it has hammer block or firing pin safeties, I don't see no need for a safety, but decockers could come in handy. Same with DAO and semi-cocked Glocks.
I carry an HK LEM with one in the chamber and no manual safety. I was trained on it, am perfectly comfortable with it, and honestly don't really want a manual safety.
It's not going to go off by itself. Have a proper holster and proper handling techniques and there shouldn't be any issues.
It's not going to go off by itself. Have a proper holster and proper handling techniques and there shouldn't be any issues.
threegun, you hit the nail on the head. Why add another, IMO unnecessary, fine motor skill to your defense?
The two-way range and even competition, have a way of decreasing one's ability to perform fine motor skill tasks. It's been proven time and again.
On the other hand, if you don't feel that you can't safely carry your weapon and keep it from firing without a manual safety ... better (manual) safe(ty) than sorry I guess.
The two-way range and even competition, have a way of decreasing one's ability to perform fine motor skill tasks. It's been proven time and again.
On the other hand, if you don't feel that you can't safely carry your weapon and keep it from firing without a manual safety ... better (manual) safe(ty) than sorry I guess.
Frank Ettin
Administrator
Well, some of us prefer the 1911, and for those of us who do, a manual safety goes with the territory. And so we train and practice. In any case, sweeping off a 1911 safety is hardly a fine motor action.
way more than the omaha police force all together.......Whether or not flicking off the safety on a 1911 is or is not a fine motor skill is an arguable point. Remember, some folks like really big ones so to make it easier. And then there's the matter of what else you have to do at the same time. With a thumb-snap type holster or one of the more advanced security holster, you already have to do something with your thumb, and then, if you have to flick off the safety, you almost have to change gears, sort of. But all the same (and I'm trying not to contradict myself), it isn't all that difficult a task to accomplish, even under stress. How fast you can do it is another matter and that point becomes how fast you have to do it. At least on a 1911 it works in the right direction.
First of all if you need a safety to stop you from getting "Glock" leg, sell your firearm immediately as you have no business owning one.
Secondly it really doesn't matter which one happens more often. The one I concern myself with is the one that could cost me my life at the hands of a ruffian.
Lastly please compare apples to apples in the future. Like perhaps comparing guns with external safeties vs gun without.
BTW gunfights are rare Glock owners are not.
I don't think folks can't or don't want to learn it. I think they fear not being able to do so while someone is trying to kill them.
I have been close to a shootout and although I reacted as trained, I felt the effects of the intense pressure instantly. I was riddled with tunnel vision and lost my hearing a bit. Everything felt labored and slow. My mind racing with thoughts. I can see it causing difficulties especially for those with slide mounted safeties.
It was this experience that galvanized my position on external safeties.
Blue Train, I have customers who I had to help them change their grip because they would engage the slide stop during fast firing causing the gun to lock open even though rounds were still in the magazine.
Markj, Come on dude. You don't have to be sarcastic. Of course its your choice your life. BTW it hasn't complicated things so far for you and thats good. Unfortunately the complications we are talking about happen while in a gun fight. Thats a terrible place to find that you were wrong isn't it?
Too complicated...?
I don't want to learn to use a manual safety because I feel they are worthless for most applications. That has nothing to do with it being complicated.
Complicated is adding an extra step in a situation which wipes the mind of all but the most instinctual of human instincts: fight or flight!
This discussion has come about at a fortuitous time for me. I am debating - with myself - as to whether I should buy the S&W M&P9 full size with or without the thumb safety. In the store, it's do-able, but the placement of the safety is not really very ergonomic for me. Maybe it is for someone else.
I've posted this elsewhere, but this seems like a great opportunity to put my thinking in front of experienced people for their insight and reactions. Here it is:
For something over twenty-five years, I hunted North American Woodcock and Ruffed Grouse in the woods and thickets of Vermont. My over/under had a safety on the tang - very convenient and, for me, very ergonomic. After a time, it was all part of one movement - when a bird flushed, I'd raise the gun [built to fit me like a glove], slide off the safety, mount the gun, and BAM! In the woods and thickets, I thought that the safety performed an important function - branches could snag the trigger when I least expected it, and there were those unannounced slip-and-fall affairs - those woods gave plenty of opportunity for that! Old barbed wire covered with leaves, pot holes fill in with leaves, and the famous slippery slope. I learned instinctively how to manage those falls and was always very pleased that the safety was engaged. And at all those times, the gun was not in or protected by any sort of holster.
Now for the pistol. As I've said, that thumb safety - however I might practice with it, the placement of the safety makes life difficult. But the circumstances also are different! The pistol is either (a) in the holster where it isn't about to do anything bad or (b) in my hand when the law allows me to draw and shoot. No safety is needed for actually shooting, obviously, and no safety is need when the gun is holstered. Under these circumstances, what are the physical circumstances in which the thumb safety would perform - COULD perform - a very desirable service?
In addition, I am an older guy just short of seventy years. The gun would be carried in a form fitting holster, most times IWB and either tucked or covered by the shirt. Yes, I'll like to practice - but hey! I'm not a cop and I don't play one on TV! When my life or the life of an innocent person is in jeopardy, I'm gonna be one huge bag of adrenalin! All I want to do is rip the gun out and shoot the threat!
So, those are my thoughts. May I have your reactions and insight with regard to them?
I've posted this elsewhere, but this seems like a great opportunity to put my thinking in front of experienced people for their insight and reactions. Here it is:
For something over twenty-five years, I hunted North American Woodcock and Ruffed Grouse in the woods and thickets of Vermont. My over/under had a safety on the tang - very convenient and, for me, very ergonomic. After a time, it was all part of one movement - when a bird flushed, I'd raise the gun [built to fit me like a glove], slide off the safety, mount the gun, and BAM! In the woods and thickets, I thought that the safety performed an important function - branches could snag the trigger when I least expected it, and there were those unannounced slip-and-fall affairs - those woods gave plenty of opportunity for that! Old barbed wire covered with leaves, pot holes fill in with leaves, and the famous slippery slope. I learned instinctively how to manage those falls and was always very pleased that the safety was engaged. And at all those times, the gun was not in or protected by any sort of holster.
Now for the pistol. As I've said, that thumb safety - however I might practice with it, the placement of the safety makes life difficult. But the circumstances also are different! The pistol is either (a) in the holster where it isn't about to do anything bad or (b) in my hand when the law allows me to draw and shoot. No safety is needed for actually shooting, obviously, and no safety is need when the gun is holstered. Under these circumstances, what are the physical circumstances in which the thumb safety would perform - COULD perform - a very desirable service?
In addition, I am an older guy just short of seventy years. The gun would be carried in a form fitting holster, most times IWB and either tucked or covered by the shirt. Yes, I'll like to practice - but hey! I'm not a cop and I don't play one on TV! When my life or the life of an innocent person is in jeopardy, I'm gonna be one huge bag of adrenalin! All I want to do is rip the gun out and shoot the threat!
So, those are my thoughts. May I have your reactions and insight with regard to them?
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