manual safety vs no manual safety

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Nnobby, The incident you are describing is a perfect example of both pro and con arguments regarding manual safeties. The shop owner indeed forgot to off his safety and was shot 5 times as a result. However the bad guy then took the shop owners Walther PPK and placed it to his head and pulled the trigger. The safety still on the gun didn't fire and the shop owners life was spared.

The moral of the story is PRACTICE.

My preferences are for the most simple platform to keep with the K.I.S.S. mantra. Not because I don't practice or cannot learn to sweep a safety but for other reasons namely accidental engagement. I understand however that should my gun be taken from me, before I have emptied it, that it will likely be used against me.

Situational Awareness should keep you out of trouble. You should be proficient in your presentation should unavoidable trouble arrive. You should be proficient in gun retention should the bad guy make it in to close. If all that fails....well I guess, like Luke Skywalker, it was your destiny.
 
When I carry a DA/SA gun, with a slide mounted safety, I only use the safety as a decocker and then put it back off safe.

A long, 10lb pull is plenty of insurance against a revolver discharge, so why would I think any differently about the pull on a Beretta? Note: it also has a firing pin block, so it won't fire if the trigger is not fully pulled.

(Unless one is working for an agency that requires a gun to be carried on safe, why do people safe their DA guns? I never got that... Then again, I am neither pessimistic enough to expect my gun to be turned on me, nor optimistic enough to think that if it happens, the BG can't figure out how to take off the safety.)
 
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It's easy to respond with "practice, practice, practice" but the simple fact is most people don't have access to a range, or any other place, where they can repeatedly deploy their weapon from their holster and fire. Many ranges forbid drawing from a holster. Many people don't have access to private land where they can practice and shoot as they please.

Sure, you can dry-fire practice but it's not the same.

Why complicate your defense with fine motor skill manual safeties?
 
It's easy to respond with "practice, practice, practice" but the simple fact is most people don't have access to a range, or any other place, where they can repeatedly deploy their weapon from their holster and fire. Many ranges forbid drawing from a holster. Many people don't have access to private land where they can practice and shoot as they please.
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For years I was in the same position as you. Guess what, dry presentations work very well. When I finally was able to draw from leather and actually drop the hammer on a live round it was smooth and accurate. After all you are doing everything except getting recoil.To make my practice more effective I wouldn't drop the hammer until I had found my front sight on the target.

So yes it is easy to say simply because it works.
 
Why complicate your defense with fine motor skill manual safeties?
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I don't have a logical answer except to say that some folks are fearful of a gun without one, others adopt platforms that have them,still others are issued gun with them.

Personally I don't care for manual safeties. Its one reason I have stayed with the Glock platform. Keep it simple stupid.......K.I.S.S.
 
I carry my guns on safe because it is how I have always done it. I don't think either way is right or wrong. it is a preference.
oh Nnobby45...I usually carry an m&p .45. I have 3 other guns that have the same type of safety that I will carry every once in awhile just because I feel like it. it is nice to switch it up once in awhile.

I also recently got a 3rd gen. smith & wesson. obviously this gun has a safety/decocker and yes I know to use the safety to decock the gun and then flip it back up to the off position.

I'm sorry I didn't make my original post more clear that I just wanted pros and cons to a manual safety. And personal experiences that backed up some peoples claims that manual safeties aren't good for pistols used for personal protection.

thank you to everyone who gave a reply to my original post.
 
My only complaint pertaining to manual safeties is that they require lots and lots of practice. Sure, you can be at the range and never forget to flip it off when you draw and fire. However, when your heart rate is over 150, 160, 170, etc., (condition black or red depending on what you call them) you can forget to do a lot of things you were supposed to have done or thought you were supposed to do.

In a real self defense situation, aka combat, you experience things you may have never experienced before: an adrenaline dump, instinctual movement/thought, loss of fine motor control, etc. This is why I prefer to make things as simple as possible; all I have to do is (1) pull the gun out of my holster, (2) aim/point it at the hostile(s), and (3) pull the trigger.

Is having a manual safety bad? No, definitely not. It does add a step, but if you have trained religiously with it in simulated self defense situations (heart rate above 150, 160, 170...) you shouldn't have a problem when it comes down to it.
 
Why complicate your defense with fine motor skill manual safeties?
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By that thinking, why complicate your escape from a burning car by wearing a seat belt?

Or is it that there isnt any other fine motor skills involved in SD other than flipping off a thumb safety?

Or is it that the thumb is not as smart as the index finger?

Or is it that for some un-made-up-yet reason that a handgun shouldnt have one but that evil black rifle should have one?

Or is it that removing a thumb safety is the answer to a problem that really never existed for those that actually practiced?
 
I generally carry a 1911, and it's safety is so easy to remember and wipe off, it's second nature. On the other hand, I have never tried to wipe off the safety on my Glocks, but of course, this is only at the range and not under stress. Since there isn't one, I would hope under stress, I would quickly remember that I am carrying a Glock, much as I seem to at the range. The feel of the 2 guns is so dissimilar, I personally don't think there ever will be a problem. Since I prefer 1911s, I guess I prefer safeties. But then again I don't find myself wishing my Glocks had them.
 
Some, just a few, military rifles had no safeties. Unfortunately, it seemed to be compensated for by having a very heavy trigger pull. The Martini, which is going back a few years I realize, had no safety but they felt it needed to have a cocking indicator. Other military rifles had a safety that was so difficult to use that I suspect it was rarely used.

Not all safeties on handguns work the same way. Some block the hammer; others blocked only the trigger (and I'm not referring to Glocks and the like). I believe that a firing pin safety is a relatively recent thing. Not a bad thing either but it makes it that much harder to disassemble. However, it goes without saying that the first thing a safety must do is simply keep the gun from going off when it is applied. I know that no one else ever drops their pistol or revolver but I have once or twice within living memory. They weren't loaded and I don't think they would have gone off anyway, only on one of those rare occasions, it landed right smack on the hammer. That's the jelly-side-down sort of thing that always seems to happen. But at least nothing broke. Other handguns are not so well made and some, especially if they are older and have been used a lot, may not be as safe as all that even with a safety. That mostly applies to older guns, though, and I doubt any of you use antiques.

I will admit however, reluctantly, that on some pistols there is a little overkill when it comes to safeties. On the other hand, you might get the impression from reading the manuals, at least the American editions, that handguns are so dangerous that they probably shouldn't even be manufactured. So I generally skip over that part and just read whatever's written on the side of the gun, if it's in English.

The new Ruger LC9 is a case in point. I think it has a decent true double-action only trigger system. I even think it is very appropriate for that kind of weapon, although the small grip will make it more difficult for some to use but others that work the same way are even smaller. It isn't the sort of gun you would expect to be used on something 25-yards away anyhow.

It has a manual safety.

Although I have examined one in person, in the hand, I don't own one (yet), so all my opinions on the matter are tentative. Mostly I need to own something for a year or two before I really make up my mind. Only when I sell it will I really know what I think about it but that's another story. Anyhow, you aren't required to use the safety, which you know, but if you do, you probably ought to use it all the time. The big problem there to overcome is that the trigger seems to work like the safety is not "on" until the last fraction of the trigger movement--when it stops. I expect that would induce panic under some circumstances and is the sort of thing I have had nightmares about. Trying to shoot something and the gun won't fire.

A minor point but the safety lever pivots at the front of the lever instead of at the back. But not much movement is required and it is very positive, something that I cannot say about all pistols I've tried out.
 
Why complicate your defense with fine motor skill manual safeties?
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Like trigger control?

Just yank the gun out and start blasting.

If you are close enough you may actually hit your intended target.:barf:


I have practiced and used 1911s for so long I need to slow down and THINK when drawing to NOT flip off the safety.

Dry fire practice works just fine for a number of things, and drawing and presenting is one.

Just avoid the mirror routine.

Have someone else watch or record yourself for playback.
 
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Or is it that removing a thumb safety is the answer to a problem that really never existed for those that actually practiced?
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Or is it that a safety may become accidentally reengaged during a firefight?
 
Like trigger control?
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I'm not trying to speak for Mudinyeri but I think he was thinking more on the lines of complicating fine motor skills while under life or death pressure. This pressure as been known to interfere with the very trigger control you mentioned. Even competitive pressure can cause a disruption in perfected fine motor skills. Try shooting a match, I bet you find it harder to shoot like you do during practice.

For me competition makes things feel like I'm going very slow. If I try to speed up I make mistakes. If I stay the course I feel like molasses. I can definitely see the possibilities involving an external safety. I'm very happy without one.
 
If one practices enough with one specific type of handgun then the manual safety should not be a problem.

But if you routinely shoot and practice with several handguns, all with different types of manual safeties (say a Beretta M9, a 1911, and BHP), then you might be setting yourself up for failure should a real life self defense event occur.

For range time I like all kinds of handguns.
But for self defense give me a handgun with no manual safety.
 
There was a fad for a while to pin down the grip safety. Would you do that?

At least one large police department equipped with Colt automatic pistols pinned down the safety lever so that it could not be engaged. Would you do that?

Many police departments in this country at one time carried handguns with no safeties. They were revolvers, of course. Would you carry one?

Some new automatics introduced in Germany several years ago had no safety levers, only a hammer drop. Would you carry such a thing?

Naturally all of the above cases involved police departments where the administrators and training officials had to concern themselves with sometimes hundreds of officers and with all the liability concerned. Civilians have none of the same concerns, mostly.
 
Personally, I'm a fan of a manual safety, but oddly most of my pistols don't have one. I do have one on my Makarov, my ccw pistol.

If you practice pulling/de-safetying (is that a real word?) on a regular basis, you will get better at it. If whatever happens happens so quickly that you can't get your pistol out at all, you're probably not going to choose to be reaching for it initially anyhow.
 
is it that removing a thumb safety is the answer to a problem that really never existed for those that actually practiced?
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Aw, come on. Revolvers never had safeties. When a semi has a trigger similar to a revolver, why should it need one? A thumb safety is a good "solution" to a "problem" of a light single-action trigger like we see on a 1911, but "removing" something that was never there because it was never needed should not be offensive. It is gratuitous to attribute that design feature to a lack of practice or dedication on anyone's part.
 
I think he was thinking more on the lines of complicating fine motor skills while under life or death pressure.
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The whole fine motor skill thing is so overrated it has become an excuse for inadequate training and practice.

You will perform fine under stress if you have enough practice.

I have to think HARD to NOT flip off a 1911 safety when drawing the weapon.

With enough repetition and practice it will be so second nature that you will wipe it off every time.
 
brickeyee, I shoot several hundred rounds every week when I'm home.

I practice from the holster, I practice rapid fire.

I used to routinely carry a CBOB as my CCW. However, I found that every so often, at the range, I would unconsciously re-apply the safety.

I also found, via IDPA, that I'm faster using a DA setup, and not dealing with safeties.

So, if you want to carry cocked and locked, train a lot, and you will probably be just fine.

In my case, while I do carry cocked and locked if carrying a 1911, I have been gravitating more toward revolvers and DA autos lately. And that's definitely NOT due to a lack of practice.
 
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