manual safety vs no manual safety

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chadk7

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A thread in the semi auto forum got me thinking about this.

Many people think that a gun used for self defense shouldn't have a manual safety. I can see that it is one more thing to think about when drawing your weapon. If you forget to flip it off you are screwed if the fact that you have a gun doesn't deter the criminal.

Others believe that the added time of having to flip the safety off is an unnecessary risk to take when you are in a self defense situation.

I think that the first example(forgetting to flip the safety off) can be avoided with practice unholstering your gun and immediately flipping the safety switch off. You can train in this manner until it is second nature and you don't even have to think about it.

The second example is the one that gets me. I don't know that the time it takes to flip the safety off is going to make a big difference if you train and are proficient doing so. I think that if something is going to go down so fast that you don't have time to disengage the safety, you aren't going to have time to even unholster your gun.

All my guns have manual safeties but I can carry them without having the safety on if I choose to. I was just wondering what everyone thinks on this subject or if anyone has firsthand experience where a manual safety worked against your favor.
 
I carried and shot 1911's for years, and while I no longer carry one, I still sweep the safety off as I draw the gun, even though my Glock doesnt have one.

Whatever you choose, you have to put in the time and effort to learn its quirks. It doesnt matter if it has a safety or not, and one is no worse than the other as long as youre familiar with it.
 
It is simply a matter of training. If your semi auto has a manual safety, and if you have trained yourself to flip the safety off as you prepare to fire, there should be no issues. From my standpoint [full-time LE], I WANT my issue weapon to have a manual safety. There are scores of documented incidents of the BG getting the officer's gun away from him and trying to murder him with it..only to fail because the safety was engaged and said BG didn't know how to "turn the gun on". This is one reason I despise my issue weapon [Sig P220ST], because it has no manual safety. If I could, I'd carry my Ruger P-90 on duty, because it's MUCH more reliable than the dept.-issued Sig...and it has a manual safety.
 
I prefer my handguns with frame mounted manual safeties. Became part of my grip as I've come to ride the safety with my thumb. Works for me. No time involved concerning it's operation. Just dry run everyday. Practice, practice, practice the draw in order to forge it into muscle memory.

Apologize for the rather short, incomplete input. Keyboard issue.
 
I've trained with a 1911 for years. In fact, I just completed the Intermediate Handgun class (350) at Gunsite using a 1911. I had no trouble sweeping off the manual safety on my 1911. It also takes no extra time to disengage the safety because it is done before the gun is on target anyway.
 
No issues with manual safties for me either- but then I've been a 1911 guy since I was 6 years old. Very little training is required to make manipulating a saftey mucle memory. I've taken new soldiers, fresh from basic and AIT, and had them disengaging the safety ONLY to shoot, and then immediatly re-engaging it. It took about 6 training hours.
One caveat: The safety lever must be where it can be manipulated without altering the firing grip. The above training was conducted with the M4. I have yet to meet anyone who can work an M9 safety from a firing grip
 
Manual safety's and even Magazine Safety's Have saved a lot of officers that have had the misfortune to be disarmed by a bad guy and given them just enough time to pull their backup.
 
The last person I need to be around is one that can't think about the safety of a loaded handgun. I say put levers back on all of them!

-7-
 
I just wish they all worked alike. I have some that down is off and others that down is on. All of mine stay off because of this.
 
All my guns have manual safeties but I can carry them without having the safety on if I choose to.
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No matter how you choose to carry them, you still need to make it a habit to sweep it off (even if it's already off) every time you draw. Safeties can be turned on accidentally, it's happened to me at the range more than once, particularly with slide mounted safeties which can occasionally be flipped to the safe position during a quick slide rack.
All of mine stay off because of this.
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Same deal. That works until the first time the safety gets turned on accidentally and you can't figure out what's wrong or which way to flip the lever.
 
particularly with slide mounted safeties which can occasionally be flipped to the safe position during a quick slide rack.
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That's why I hate slide-mounted safeties! As a 1911 guy trying to get used to the M9, it drives me nuts.
 
All my guns have manual safeties but I can carry them without having the safety on if I choose to. I was just wondering what everyone thinks on this subject or if anyone has firsthand experience where a manual safety worked against your favor.
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You can't just discuss manual safeties as if they were all the same. Some, such as on the 1911, are moved to the OFF position before the gun comes on target and there is no time factor involved. The safety is very ergomically friendly.

On the other hand, a frame mounted safety is also a decocker. The proceedure is DOWNUP. That simple. Down to decock and immediately UP to enable the gun to fire. This is a safe mode of carry because the first shot is trigger cocking (dbl action).

Some LE departments mandate pistols with safety/decockers be carried in the safe position. The safety must be enabled to up position while the gun is still in the holster--before the draw. Once the gun is in the hand, it's very awkward to release the secure grip on the gun, thumb the safety up, then re-establish the shooting grip.

The requirement for such carry isn't because the gun isn't safe to carry with the safey in the off position. It's because if an officer looses his/her gun, the criminal can't just point and shoot. Officers' lives have been saved because of this type of carry. Mas Ayoob has discussed the issue a number of times, and, the last I heard, no officers' lives have been lost because they didn't remember to off safe their guns. And a number of officers' lives have been saved after a gun grab.

NOTE: I know that officers required to carry in that mode enable their guns while in the holster when arriving on many calls so they can just draw and shoot if necessary.

LASTLEY: If you carry a gun with manual safety on, then you have to practice until releasing the safety is second nature. With 1911's, it's easy. With the safety/decocker, it takes MUCH more practice.

Just my thoughts on the matter.
 
Many of us have seen the video of the jewelry store armed robbery (a number of years ago) where the armed robber entered the place and approached the owner (who knew something was up). Bubba then turned away to hide his draw as he reached for his gun in his waist band.

The shop owner saw it coming and drew his gun from his back pocket (not the best way to carry), easily beating him to the draw.

Unfortunately, the good guy forgot to off safe his gun and it worked perfectly as designed---it didn't fire with the safety still on.

The good guy was then forced to the back room and shot a number of times execution style.

He survived with permanent debilitating injuries.

He then blamed his unfortunate experience on the gun manufacturer and, if memory serves (at my age it sometimes doesn't:D), sued.

Is that a condemnation of the gun's design?

Or of the incompetence of it's user?

Does that mean we shouldn't carry guns with manual safeties on (mandatory with the 1911)?

That seems to be what the thread is basically about. :cool:
 
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Thank you for all the replies. I wasn't saying that we shouldn't carry a gun with the manual safety off. I carry my guns everyday with the safety on. It just seems that a lot of people think that a gun carried for self defense should not have a manual safety because it is one more thing to think about if you ever have to use it.

Like I said all my guns have manual safeties and I wouldn't have it any other way. This thread was started because I wanted to get other peoples inputs on the topic. I wanted some others to share what their thoughts were about what they believe the pros and cons are to having a manual safety on a defensive pistol. I thought it might make a good discussion.
 
My main goal when I first got into shooting was fun. As a result I shoot a variety of different pistols because I buy what I like and what I like has pretty much nothing to do with the type of safety it has.

The result is that I have a lot of different style pistols. DAO style, SA/DA with manual safety, SA/DA with decockers only, SAO, revolvers, etc.

I have guns with safeties, guns without safeties, guns where the safeties are on when the lever is up, guns where the safeties are on when the lever is down.

I have no problems figuring out how to operate these guns at the range, but I don't believe the range is a very good model for a self-defense encounter. Because I use so many different kinds of guns on a fairly regular basis and don't practice enough with any particular type of pistol to become well-accustomed to any particular kind of safety, I lean heavily towards pistols without manual safeties of any kind for self-defense applications.

If you stick to one particular style/model of pistol or one particular manual of arms for all your pistols then it really doesn't matter much for you what kind of pistol it is or what kind of safety it is. If you practice with it properly and sufficiently then you will be able to manipulate the safety as necessary because that's how you've trained to operate.

If you're using lots of different kinds of pistols with different manuals of arms or if you aren't getting enough (or think you won't get enough) practice to insure that you can properly operate a manual safety in a high-stress situation then a double-action revolver or a semi-auto without a manual safety is probably the best choice.
 
I grew up on Colt 'O' and Smith 'K' frames so I'm familiar with both ways.

Shot IDPA, IPSC, and action shooting with P-35, 1911, Glocks, Smith M15, and my Speed Six. So again, I'm familiar with both ways.

I've also used Sigs in competition and used a 229 in LFI-1.

But I use a 'point-n-click' Glock 26/27 and Smith J as my carry pieces so I don't have to fiddle with any safety. I believe in simplicity when it comes to self defense.

Deaf
 
I carry a P220 on duty and am perfectly happy with no safety, other than what keeps the gun from going boom when it's not supposed to. I rely on a triple retention holster, situational awareness, and keeping my hands centered just above the belt at all possible times. This allows my right elbow to just make contact with the top snap of my holster for both added security and weapon indexing. I don't begrudge others having manual safeties though; I think presentation practice can make bringing a safety'd gun to bear just as fast as one without.
 
I think presentation practice can make bringing a safety'd gun to bear just as fast as one without.
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Not to criticize, but this thread continues to address "guns with safeties" as though one were the same as another. I think some of us are referring to one type and some the other type judging from the pros and cons.

I think we need to make a distinction.

The 1911 safety type, found on other single action pistols as well, is ergonomiclly located so it can be off safed easily before the gun is brought to bear on target. There's no option ( I would hope) to carry the gun any other way but ON SAFE.

On the other hand, the SAFETY/DECOCKER system located on the slide of many pistols is a completely different consideration. It's clumsy and not easy to off safe when the gun is in a shooting grip.

With the latter type safety, one get get killed fumbling around with the safety for lack of practice under stress.

With the former-- off safing the gun is easy, but one could still get killed if he forgot to do so, but for experienced 1911 users (or BHP, etc.) offing the safety is second nature.



Chadk7 has mentioned that he carryies his pistols on safe.

Maybe he could enlighten us as to WHAT KIND of pistols he carries.;)

Now, if I've missed it somewhere because I didn't read thoroughly enough, then I'll opolgize in advance.

Just my opinion, but when it comes to offing the safety on the 1911, I believe there's some "stored" memory. When the gun is gripped while in the holster, I know from the feel that it has a safety (which I can feel right under my thumb) and automatically perform the off safe function immediately after I establish the two handed grip. I could carry a SIG one day and a 1911 the next without getting confused and forgetting about the safety. :cool:
 
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Obviously, a 1911 type pistol can be carried in other ways besides with a safety engaged. However, only the more recent, larger safeties are easy to use. Same with a Browning Hi-Power. Older safeties are on the small size, presumably to help prevent them being moved accidentally. Some owners of 1911 and similiar pistols even put extra large and extended safeties on their pistols to make them easier to use, which is a good idea, I guess.

I also agree that is should be possible for a person of average intelligence and skill to use two different pistols without becoming confused, which is not to say they won't. After all, you can fumble a draw with a revolver. But otherwise, different handguns generally have enough of a difference to let you know what you have. But how many people switch off from day to day anyway? A true gun enthusiast might.

Simplicity is usually a good thing but it can be approached in more than one way. But you should not assume that the way that you have worked out for yourself is the only true way or that it will work for others.
 
Only had on bad experience with safeties. The gun had a dual safey mechanism. I generally only used one when in carry mode (hunting) but decided to be extra safe while breaking for lunch. Needless to say it always happens when you least expect it. A nice 6 point came running out of the brush straight at me. I jacked out 3 good cartridges onto the ground before I realized the gun wasn't firing because I only released the usual safety. The critter got away and I sold the gun.
 
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