manual safety is unnecessary?
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AK, I understand it COULD work both ways. But I am saying there are FAR more cases of a safety saving than a safety killing. And since 99% of gun owners won't use a weapon in self defense, and of hall that 1% who will, a fraction of those will experience a problem. So as I say (for the last time, because the Glock Kool-Aid has clearly been drank here by many), that I choose to take the better odds with a deadly weapon. I do not think I am infallible. I do not think "my safety is between my ears" as being the answer to the question, and I surely don't think all that is needed to safely handle a weapon is to "keep my booger hook off the bang switch". I take my responsibility seriously when I handle a weapon. And I don't know anybody on here, so I'm not gonna say the same of anyone here. We're a collection of gun enthusiasts, not expert pistoleros. Go to YouTube and see the buffoons. So yes, I like that little extra bit of protection that just might keep some innocent person from getting shot.
And FITA, not a whole lot of children can squeeze the squeeze cocker on an H&P P7. But it's better than a Glock with a 5.5 pound trigger.
And FITA, not a whole lot of children can squeeze the squeeze cocker on an H&P P7. But it's better than a Glock with a 5.5 pound trigger.
And without one too. Glock pistols were not the first handguns without manual safeties by any means. In fact, the simplicity of DA revolvers (draw and shoot--no need to release a safety) was one of the reasons they remained popular for so long after autopistols became mainstream and one of the reasons why they still remain popular. The idea that this is about Glock and Glocks just doesn't hold water.
Can't compare a revolver to a semi. 12 pound pull be 5.5? Does a revolver manual tell you that the holster must cover the trigger guard, as Glocks does? I have zero issue with sticking a revolver in my waist band( not that I would, but I wouldn't be nervous about it). Making a revolver safe is much easier, and you can clearly see the rounds in the cylinder when it is closed. My wife is not a gun person. She is not interested in learning how to handle my semi autos. But she's comfortable with a revolver, so there's one in the safe (a model 67-1) with a speedloader next to it, in case she ever needs a gun. She's competent with it, too.
Yes, a child finding a revolver can easily fire the weapon, but that's because they have no idea about guns. Matter of fact, I'm a big revolver guy. I used to carry a model 36. I was putting it away once when my son (3 at the time) asked to see it. I believe in taking away the mystery so they don't seek out what you don't want them to have, so I unloaded it and gave it to him, cylinder open. He took it, closed the cylinder, cocked the hammer, pulled the trigger, and said "I killed the dinosaur". I was shocked. I had never taught him ANY of that. He probably learned it on tv. Or maybe older kids at pre-school. So the revolver was retired for carry. As I said, I'm super careful about guns, but I know anybody can have a brain fart. So I just felt better getting a gun with that extra layer of security in case I put it down for a second before locking it up.
My issue with safeties is I see nearly all benefits and really no drawbacks. To me, disengaging them is intuitive. I've never had them be on when I didn't want them to be. I acknowledge that in a dire emergency, they COULD be a problem, but the benefits outweigh the drawbacks, IMO. Negligent discharges, including by people who have formal training, do happen. Safeties have prevente some of them. I'm still waiting for one where somebody got a click instead of a bang and was killed or injured by one.
And if these highly trained competitors in shooting games, people who shoot a lot, can't train themselves to sweep off on the draw and on when they holster, than I question their level of ability. Unless the holster somehow disengaged it, in which case it's time for a new holster. Holstering a cocked 1911 with safety off? Really? Clearly the 1911 is not for them. Failing to decock a a TDA semi auto and sticking in in a holster? Are you serious? People who do that should ditch the guns and get some pepper spray. Who hear forgets to press the brake pedal before shifting into gear? Me neither. Why is that? Could it be it is just natural after so many repetitions? I'm sure we've all driven in stressful situations. Why didn't we forget how to shift gears in a manual transmission, or where the blinkers and headlight controls are?
Yes, a child finding a revolver can easily fire the weapon, but that's because they have no idea about guns. Matter of fact, I'm a big revolver guy. I used to carry a model 36. I was putting it away once when my son (3 at the time) asked to see it. I believe in taking away the mystery so they don't seek out what you don't want them to have, so I unloaded it and gave it to him, cylinder open. He took it, closed the cylinder, cocked the hammer, pulled the trigger, and said "I killed the dinosaur". I was shocked. I had never taught him ANY of that. He probably learned it on tv. Or maybe older kids at pre-school. So the revolver was retired for carry. As I said, I'm super careful about guns, but I know anybody can have a brain fart. So I just felt better getting a gun with that extra layer of security in case I put it down for a second before locking it up.
My issue with safeties is I see nearly all benefits and really no drawbacks. To me, disengaging them is intuitive. I've never had them be on when I didn't want them to be. I acknowledge that in a dire emergency, they COULD be a problem, but the benefits outweigh the drawbacks, IMO. Negligent discharges, including by people who have formal training, do happen. Safeties have prevente some of them. I'm still waiting for one where somebody got a click instead of a bang and was killed or injured by one.
And if these highly trained competitors in shooting games, people who shoot a lot, can't train themselves to sweep off on the draw and on when they holster, than I question their level of ability. Unless the holster somehow disengaged it, in which case it's time for a new holster. Holstering a cocked 1911 with safety off? Really? Clearly the 1911 is not for them. Failing to decock a a TDA semi auto and sticking in in a holster? Are you serious? People who do that should ditch the guns and get some pepper spray. Who hear forgets to press the brake pedal before shifting into gear? Me neither. Why is that? Could it be it is just natural after so many repetitions? I'm sure we've all driven in stressful situations. Why didn't we forget how to shift gears in a manual transmission, or where the blinkers and headlight controls are?
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Sure you can. They are all firearms and they can all hurt/kill you.
You'll have to show me where Glock says that in their manual. I dont seem to be able to find it in any of mine.
You obviously have no experience with a Glock.
Im really not a fan of sticking anything in my waistband, pocket, etc, without a holster, but I have done it at some point and with most things, including Glocks. With the Glocks, I spent over a year purposely doing it, trying to get an idea what it would take to be an issue. It never was. I never got the trigger to drop without me intentionally pulling it, and that was doing things Im sure would horrify you.
You have been all over the map in this thread trying to be right. In the last paragraph, revolvers were totally safe, yet in this one, a 3 year old just handled one like a pro, and if it had been loaded, would have fired it. Which pretty much nullifies most of your arguments.
While disengaging the safety is normally intuitive, with practice, if youve never had one be on when you expected it off, or vice versa, then I have to assume you havent handled the gun much. It happens to the best of us, when youre constantly using the gun. Believe it or dont, it even happens with Glocks.
Negligent discharges are just that, and happens to anyone being negligent, and/or lacking training. They can happen to the best of us too, extra safeties on the gun or not.
As far as the click vs bang thing, you answer your own question, every time you tell us they have saved lives when the gun was taken away from one, and didnt fire because the safety was on when they tried to shoot who they took the gun from.
Im really becoming convinced you dont have much time around guns being handled constantly and realistically.
Anyone who shoots all the time, especially in practice from a holster, has had the safety missed on a draw, or left off on a reholster. Ive had it happen, and a few more times than once over the years, and I still practice nearly every day. Ive seen people of all levels do it as well. Anyone insisting that it can't happen to them, is full of it.
I carried a 1911 daily for over 25 years, and even with "good" holsters, I constantly found the thumb safety off, in the holster, at the end of the day. Its just the nature of the beast. No big deal, but it is what it is.
Just because a gun has an extra manual safety or two, doesn't mean you stop treating it like a loaded gun, with all the safeties off.
I've been around guns a long time. And I've owned Glocks, a 19 that was a duty weapon, and a 26. I know all guns can have a negligent discharge. Guns without safeties are more likely. Revolvers don't have safeties, but they are easier to see their status with the rounds clearly visible in the cylinder, and they have. Longer trigger pull then a Glock. Do I carry any gun Mexican style? Course not. But I'd be more comfortable with a revolver or a hammer fired weapon in my waist band then any striker fired weapon.
Not gonna go over my resume, but I shoot a good amount. Even reload my own ammo to have a good supply on hand. And I have never, not once, had a failure to function due to a safety being on when I didn't want it to.
Enjoy your Glocks or whatever. You're obviously a skilled pistolero who "keeps his booger book off the bang switch". Good for you.
Not gonna go over my resume, but I shoot a good amount. Even reload my own ammo to have a good supply on hand. And I have never, not once, had a failure to function due to a safety being on when I didn't want it to.
Enjoy your Glocks or whatever. You're obviously a skilled pistolero who "keeps his booger book off the bang switch". Good for you.
I have very little experience with a GLock, I have shot a few of them, but my experience is much less than the cop in the video from a few years back, talking to school children, stating he was the only one in the room qualified to handle a "Glock Fou-Tay", right before shooting himself in the leg with it!!!!
THAT level of experience, I don't NEED!!!
Likewise, I don't want to be the guy who shot himself in the testicles while shopping at Home Depot. (apparently a perfect storm of stupidity on that one, Glock, holsterless IWB carry ("Mexican carry), and he was wearing sweatpants!! Gun slips, he grabs, BANG!!!!
unconfirmed reports said he was using "ball" ammo! 
)Training, experience, they are useful, necessary, even, BUT they take a back seat to situational awareness. When this slips, people screw up. Even experts and rated masters. The main difference is experts generally screw up less, that's what makes them experts.
Are we a little too obsessed with defending against the sudden surprise attack? There is no question Americans overall believe that the ability to draw and fire is very important. But are we focusing TOO much on the fact that a safety can be missed?
It's seldom said so, in so many words, but the message I keep hearing from certain factions boils down to "if you have a safety you will DIE!!!", Likewise (from a slightly different, possibly overlapping faction) "If you shoot your DA gun SA, you will DIE! die! Die!"...etc..
And from the other side of the house, "if you don't have/use a safety, you WILL shoot yourself or someone else!" etc....
Funny, I don't seem to hear much argument about how safeties are unnecessary on long guns, or on sporting arms, every one of which has a mechanical safety of one kind, or another.
Every gun's primary safety is the user. First and foremost. Additional mechanical safety systems, active and passive, are not necessary to operate the gun. But they are very, very useful for most of us, (active systems) and passive systems such as those designed to make the gun "drop safe", etc. are useful to ALL of us (including the "you'll die if you miss the safety" camp)
Cheapshooter
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A bit of a poor, straw man example. He "said" it was an "empty" gun. He released the slide with a loaded mag in the gun. He also would most likely NOT have had the safety on if it were a gun equipped with one.
You can't fix stupid, and you shouldn't use stupid for the validation of a point.
Would he have been any safer with a 1911 or a SIG? I doubt it.
Dont forget ole Tex there on YouTube shooting himself in the butt with a 1911 on a draw. It can and does happen with EVERYTHING, and 99.9% of the problem, is the user, and not the gun.
My point about the no, or little experience with things, applies to anything and everything, not just Glocks. So much misinformation is bandied about the internet based on "nothing", but pushed as fact, and its usually from people who have little or no real experience with things they are complaining about. Yet, they seem to be experts just the same, because they and others have repeated it enough.
We need to separate the emotions from the arguements, for things to be clearer.
Long guns really arent any different. There are just as many different types of safety set ups, and just as much experience/inexperience involved. I cant even begin to remember the number of times Ive watched people unfamiliar with a long gun, "try" and pull the trigger with the safety on (you know what that looks like). It happens with everything.
And if all that isnt scary enough, hand someone who has no experience with one, and an open bolt SMG and watch the pucker factor increase exponentially.
Safeties are only safe, if the person using them understands them, is still diligent in their use, and in safety practices in general.
If you think just because a gun has a manual safety, it will be safer in unfamiliar, or anyone's hands for that matter, you need to rethink some things.
Pretty much.
It isnt that youre going to die, because it has a safety, anymore than youre going to die, because it doesnt. Its the attitude that you are "perfect", and it can never happen to you, that is where things go awry. We all know thats not the truth, but no one likes to admit they arent perfect, and dont make mistakes.
The responsibility is, and ALWAYS will be, on the user, safety or no safety. Doesnt matter.
I no longer have a Glock manual to look it up, but I can guarentee you that there is t a holster made for the Glock that doesn't cover the trigger guard, nor is there any reputable source that will advocate carrying without the trigger guard being covered on a Glock.
Funny how the term "Glock Leg" is instantly recognized by anybody into guns. Where's the "1911 Leg" or "Beretta Leg" references?
Funny how the term "Glock Leg" is instantly recognized by anybody into guns. Where's the "1911 Leg" or "Beretta Leg" references?
Show me a current holster that doesnt cover the trigger guard, for any auto.
Glock leg is an internet thing, and again, just spouted over and over. Did it happen, obviously. Did it ever happen with anything else, of course. This stuff has been going on since the giddy up.
I personally know people who have put a round through the living room floor with a 1911, took a nice divot out of the concrete ceiling of an armory with a 1911, blew a whole through an entertainment unit and into the fridge in the next room with a S&W J frame, and blew a back pocket out of their jeans with a Baby Browning when they bent over.
All were people with experience, and all those guns weren't Glocks, and either had safeties, or were a revolver. Ive seen some pretty scary stuff with long guns as well.
Lets face it, it happens, and will continue to happen, as long as there are people handling guns. Its unfortunate, and I would hope we all try our best to avoid it happeneing, but, it is what it is.
Glock leg is an internet thing, and again, just spouted over and over. Did it happen, obviously. Did it ever happen with anything else, of course. This stuff has been going on since the giddy up.
I personally know people who have put a round through the living room floor with a 1911, took a nice divot out of the concrete ceiling of an armory with a 1911, blew a whole through an entertainment unit and into the fridge in the next room with a S&W J frame, and blew a back pocket out of their jeans with a Baby Browning when they bent over.
All were people with experience, and all those guns weren't Glocks, and either had safeties, or were a revolver. Ive seen some pretty scary stuff with long guns as well.
Lets face it, it happens, and will continue to happen, as long as there are people handling guns. Its unfortunate, and I would hope we all try our best to avoid it happeneing, but, it is what it is.
Yes, NDs can happen to the best of us. A safety lock that renders the firearm inoperable unless one has switched it off can protect against negligence in touching the trigger without an intent to fire. That isn't merely an extta safety, but a different kind of safety that protects a user against a different kind of negligence.
A system of safeties that requires a user to perform two acts, 1) swipe the safety lock, and 2) press the light trigger for a short distance is unlikely to present exactly the same incidence of NDs as a firearm that only requires the second step.
A user is responsible for his own negligence. That shouldn't lead anyone to believe that every system of safeties presents the same ND risk.
zincwarrior
New member
Agreed. people should explore all facets, and use the type they are most comfortable with...AND PRACTICE.
I don't get the hostility. I started with a 1911 carry, but switched to an M&P style. I've tried DA/SA but the switchover inevitably had me put the second one high. But I don't begrudge anyone and their preferences.
The hostility is directed at people who think safeties are something that's gonna get you killed. Cause the reality is that in the 50 years you own a gun, the odds of you using it in a real defensive situation are extremely unlikely.
Not to say you shouldn't prepare for that. But it is MY opinion, that you can prepare for that, while still using a weapon with a safety.
Enjoy your guns. I'm done here.
Not to say you shouldn't prepare for that. But it is MY opinion, that you can prepare for that, while still using a weapon with a safety.
Enjoy your guns. I'm done here.
"...Yes, NDs can happen to the best of us. A safety lock that renders the firearm inoperable unless one has switched it off can protect against negligence in touching the trigger without an intent to fire. That isn't merely an extta safety, but a different kind of safety that protects a user against a different kind of negligence..."
This is the thinking that results in Negligent Discharges...the part about "negligence in touching the trigger without intent to fire"...
If one is depending on a "safety" to protect them from firing a round when touching the trigger, then they will soon hear the loudest shot they will ever hear.
This is the thinking that results in Negligent Discharges...the part about "negligence in touching the trigger without intent to fire"...
If one is depending on a "safety" to protect them from firing a round when touching the trigger, then they will soon hear the loudest shot they will ever hear.
Why the hostility at all? It was only pointed out that it could. No need to take offense, it was just an observation.
All the more reason, if you choose to use a gun with one for that purpose, you should practice regularly with it, so its not as much of an issue.
If youre relying on a device to make up for your lack of experience/effort, that really isnt the best way to go. Safety or not, you'd be better off just leaving it chamber empty and charge it when needed, if you feel the need to leave it loaded at all. Leaving loaded guns lying around isnt the best idea either, although some dont seem to mind.
A lot of truth in that.
I'm not relying on any safety device. Key word being "I'm". But striker fired no safety guns are the hottest sellers right now, because most new gun buyers know nothing other than what the FBI or their local cops carry. So they look down on anything other. Most people don't take the time to really train on their weapons. They run a box of two through it and call it "reliable".
So in the hands of a trained, experienced shooter, they're fine. But those shooters make up the minority of shooters, in my experience. The antics j see st my private range, the gun store, all support that. Complete buffoons are common.
Enjoy your guns. I don't care what you shoot. I don't shoot around others that often anyway.
So in the hands of a trained, experienced shooter, they're fine. But those shooters make up the minority of shooters, in my experience. The antics j see st my private range, the gun store, all support that. Complete buffoons are common.
Enjoy your guns. I don't care what you shoot. I don't shoot around others that often anyway.
Freethought
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*********** The only thing every one of them has in common is, they generally only go bang if you put your finger on the trigger. ************
THIS ( see above) is sig line worthy.
Regardless of the system the individual firearm has the ultimate safety is between ones ears and on ones hands.
This whole arguement reminds of the arguements that surround Appendix carry and front-side crossdraw carry i.e. " you'll shoot your balls off or shoot yourself in the femoral artery."
Like other machines operator error can create a situation which can be deleterious to health a well-being of the operator and folks around them.
THIS ( see above) is sig line worthy.
Regardless of the system the individual firearm has the ultimate safety is between ones ears and on ones hands.
This whole arguement reminds of the arguements that surround Appendix carry and front-side crossdraw carry i.e. " you'll shoot your balls off or shoot yourself in the femoral artery."
Like other machines operator error can create a situation which can be deleterious to health a well-being of the operator and folks around them.
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