Long range distance for self defense

At an indoor range today, a number of younguns had
AR type weaponry and managed to hit paper at
10 yards in patterns about two feet across.

Meanwhile, at the end of the range where I was,
I watched a gent with a .22 Smith Model 41
pistol. It only had open iron sights.

At 20 yards, one handed, he consistently got patterns
of 1.5 inches with 20 shots a target. OK, he didn't
shoot fast like the younguns.

Meanwhile, at the other end of the range, banga-da-
banga-da-banga-da-bang on and on.

I draw no lesson here, Just reporting the facts.
 
Jim567,

Knew an Illinois State pistol champion. He said
he used to be a dedicated rifle shooter until he was
invited to shoot with some pistol guys.

He was ready to show them a thing or two since
their patterns were in his mind pitiful.

He learned a thing or two about rifle vs. pistol
skills that day and decided to dedicate himself to
pistols after that.

As he described it, at local rifle matches a good
to excellent shooter might be up against a third
of the other competitors. But in pistol on the local
level, it is more like competing against maybe five
per cent of the others.

This gives one an idea why the military with its
sometimes limited time to train people dismiss
the pistol as a waste of time.
 
I'd absolutely agree,most self defense situations are up close ..like 7 yds or less. I'd also agree that as range extends,its harder to claim self defense.

However….if ,as happened at Las Vegas, someone with a rifle is shooting from a window,for example, there are folks who practice smacking a rock on the far hill with a wheel gun at ridiculous ranges...to several hundred yards.


There are handgun hunters and folks who knock over steel rams.


I guarantee I can make that window a very dangerous place to shoot out of as far away as I can tell someone is shooting out of it.


I'm not bragging my shooting ability,but I'm not afraid to hold up all of the front sight and part of the slide of a 1911 at 300 yds if someone is killing people with a long gun. Practice it some,you might be surprised just how dangerous you can make a small piece of real estate
 
The 7-yard number is just the old average distance given for gunfights with handguns. It's usually credited to the FBI, but this article suggests it isn't that simple. So I am not sure of its origin. The actual distance for self-defense is, of course, whatever distance a credible threat to your life or someone else's is coming from. That article cites the example of a LEO ambushed from 36 yards with a rifle.

As mentioned, 50 yards is the National Match slow fire target distance for Precision Pistol, nee Conventional Pistol, and that's for shooting offhand (standing and using one hand). It's got a 3.36" 10 ring, which is the nearest hundredth of an moa to being a seven moa scratch ten score for a bullet whose diameter is the average of .22, .32, and .38. It's not easy to clean those targets offhand, but it's far from rare. Using a stabilized position like Gunsite's prone pistol, I don't actually find it especially hard to stay on a paper plate with .45 hardball at 100 yards. You just have to remember to aim a foot high. You do need a mechanically accurized pistol, though. A good many production guns I've shot wouldn't stay on the plate at 100 from a Ransom Rest.

I have set my copy of Bill Jordan's book, No Second Place Winner, down somewhere, but IIRC, he describes a BP officer engaging a rifleman on the other side of the Rio Grande with his .357 Mag service revolver and walking the shots up to the fellow. I don't recall if he hit his attacker or just drove him off. I just recall Jordan commenting that they found all the officer's empties carefully conserved in his pocket, a habit created at the range.

And habit seems to be key in many bad situations. Some people get the adrenalized jitters and a heart rate that destroys fine motor coordination. Others default to almost robotically following their training. The latter are the kind who can place hits most reliably under stress. And the more one trains, the more likely one is to join that club.

Jeff Cooper taught us to get all the distance we could between ourselves and our attacker, even if it's just the far side of a room instead of the near side, so our better-trained marksmanship would provide an edge. And I have to say that if I were armed with a 1911 in a crowd and someone started firing from 100 yards away, I'd feel less likely to be singled out or hit before I could place a shot on him than I would feel at closer range. So I'd consider that prospect less rather than more nerve-wracking than a closer encounter.
 
Not associated with recent "events" but I did a session of "lead therapy" this afternoon. Wow, if a bad guy is real slow AND real close, he may be in jeopardy. At 7 yards, doing a double tap, I managed to keep .357's, from a 4 inch barrel, in the chest area. At 15 yards I could manage somewhere on the torso -- with most shots. Did best with my Sigarms 1911 22. Now that thing is a joy to shoot. I do believe I could ruin a bad guys day with it. At least enough to bring his/her attention to me: oops!
 
We always seem to focus on making off-hand shots when this stuff is discussed here. There is no reason you couldn't use a pillar, shelves, or another structure to brace your shot. I'm not saying it would be a piece of cake, but if you are in a desperate situation looking for and advantage like that would seem wise.
 
Distance shots, rested or not, several posters have commented
about holding over, giving the miscreant something to worry
about. Or even close in how shots start opening up beyond
say seven yards while firing rapidly.

Now as to the Vegas shooting and the guy in the window: Just
where when you're holding over and trying to find the range do
the rest of the bullets go? Short and into windows where
others might be, to the roof where cops might be.

It's one thing to "walk" shots where the good guys are on
one side of the river and the bad guys the other.

Remember, you own each bullet you unleash. You better
connect with the miscreant each time. You shoot one innocent
while trying to be a good guy and you'll be paying and paying
in dollars and possibly your personal freedom.

And think about concealed carry, it's abut personal
protection, not about doing a police job.

Be great if some LEOs posted about their thoughts
while carrying off duty.
 
Folks in this thread, hop on over to the Tactics and Training
section. A lot of wise and good comments have been posted.

Perhaps the two threads could be combined.

Thread is entited "Could you have stopped it?"
 
UncleEd said:
Distance shots, rested or not, several posters have commented
about holding over, giving the miscreant something to worry
about. Or even close in how shots start opening up beyond
say seven yards while firing rapidly.

Now as to the Vegas shooting and the guy in the window: Just
where when you're holding over and trying to find the range do
the rest of the bullets go? Short and into windows where
others might be, to the roof where cops might be.

It's one thing to "walk" shots where the good guys are on
one side of the river and the bad guys the other.

Remember, you own each bullet you unleash. You better
connect with the miscreant each time. You shoot one innocent
while trying to be a good guy and you'll be paying and paying
in dollars and possibly your personal freedom.

And think about concealed carry, it's abut personal
protection, not about doing a police job.

Be great if some LEOs posted about their thoughts
while carrying off duty.
Click to expand...

Good post!
 
Well, my feeling are if I can consistently hit the targets at 50-75 yards with a snubbie off hand, I certainly should be able to hit something at 7. I rarely shoot targets (bullseye, steel, cans, shotgun cases, etc.) closer than 20Y. I never saw the point in general. Well, one point is when I am sighting in a gun for the first time, sometimes the sight is so far off I need to move in close to find out where the darn gun is shooting!
 
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While I concede that the need and justification to defend one's self with a handgun at extended rang is exceedingly rare, that doesn't mean it's impossible. The standard for justification to use deadly force in most jurisdictions is "reasonable fear of death or grave bodily harm" or some variation thereof. Now, if someone is wielding a handgun or non-projectile weapon (blade, blunt instrument, etc.) it would probably be hard to explain why you chose to shoot rather than retreat, but we seem to be thinking more along the lines of a mass shooting situation where the BG is armed with a rifle and that is a whole different kettle of fish.

Centerfire rifles, even those in intermediate calibers like 5.56x45 and 7.62x39, have well-deserved reputations for range and penetration. I highly doubt that there would be many things inside a typical retail store that would offer much more than concealment from rifle fire. Also, it really isn't all that hard to hit a man-sized target with iron-sights from 100+ yards if you have a clear field of fire so, to my way of thinking, a BG armed with a centerfire rifle certainly poses a risk of death or grave bodily injury at distances much greater than would be considered typical for lawful self-defense.

Now, how far I think prudent to practice depends a lot on your skill level and the type of gun you're using. For me, a full-size handgun is viable, though certainly not ideal, at ranges up to 50 yards. By full-sized handgun I mean a medium-to large frame revolver with a minimum of 3" barrel (though 4" or longer would be much better) or a semi-auto with a 4+" barrel and a full-size grip. As an example, I intentionally zero the sights on my 4" S&W 629 at 50 yards with my chosen ammo. While not the bulk of my practice, I do try to fairly regularly go out to 50 yards with this handgun and while I certainly don't shoot as well as I do at closer distances, I'm fairly confident that I could at least make anyone with any inkling of self-preservation seek cover while I get myself and my family out of danger.

With a smaller gun, such a small-frame snub revolver or subcompact semi-auto, my maximum range shrinks down to 25-30 yards. The only gun I own that I don't see any point in trying to shoot past 7-10 yards is the smallest I have: my Beretta 950B Jetfire .25 Auto as the grip and sights are simply too miniscule to be useable at great distance.

As for how adrenaline and the heat of the moment will affect you, that's a case of knowing yourself and how you react under stressful conditions. While I've never been in a gunfight (and I pray to God that I never will be) I have been in extremely stressful life-or-death situations. I have worked in the medical field in direct patient care for the past 6 years and in that time I've been in more that one Code-Blue (cardiopulmonary arrest) and several more near-code situations (most hospitals call these a "rapid response" though the terminology can vary from one-facility to another). Because of this, I know my ability to remain calm, quickly identify problems, make split-second decisions, and accomplish complex tasks requiring fine-motor skills all while under extreme stress. I've also been in the middle of medical emergencies involving close family members including my spouse and child.

While I'm not saying that the adrenaline dump and degradation of ability to accomplish complex tasks is the same as what would be experienced in a gunfight, I think it's probably as close as I can get without having actual law enforcement or military experience. Because of this, I'm reasonably confident in my ability to keep my head under pressure, but ymmv.
 
there are folks who practice smacking a rock on the far hill with a wheel gun at ridiculous ranges...to several hundred yards.
Click to expand...

I was one of those guys for 35+ years. Got pretty fair at it. Offhand, (unsupported) ONE hand, I'd ring the 200yd gong on the rifle range, 5 out of 6 on a bad day. Proved repeatedly I could do it with any pistol you gave me, after a couple sighter shots. (though .22s need a good spotter to help you get on, once you get on, you're good)

Now, in a situation like the Vegas shooting, I sincerely doubt I would try to take that shot. I rather doubt I could tell just which window he was shooting from, unless muzzle flash gave it away.

But if the bad guy is standing in the open, I know I have the skill to hit him. Whether or not I took the shot, and whether other factors would decrease my skill, I can't say and won't unless/until I'm ever in that situation, I simply don't KNOW.

For you urban folk, consider this, the usual 21 foot distance (7 yards) is about half the distance to someone standing on the far side of most city streets. Think about that, for a moment. If that is your maximum practice distance, how well will that serve you if you have to fire at double that distance?

Everyone should do some pistol shooting at longer ranges, if for no other reason than to get a first hand idea of the round amount of bullet drop at different distances from YOUR pistol.

If you actually want to learn how to hit things at longer ranges (50yds+) don't hold over the target. Hold "under". Learn how much to raise the front sight above the rear sight, with your target on top of the front sight.
 
The ten ring for precision pistol (bullseye as it was once known) is 3.36 inches at 50 yarrds, one handed unsupported.
In order to qualify for expert class, one would have to be shooting above 89 to 93.99 percent score.

At many shooting ranges I would be the lone shooter setting up on the rifle side to practice the long line (50 yards) slow fire.
 
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Always carry the gun that you are the best with and shoot 25 and 50 yards that way any thing closer will be easier but only shot at a short close but if the shooter is at 50 25 and shooting at you then it is safe to shoot back GOOD LUCK
 
"...it isn’t considered ‘self-defense’..." That'd entirely be up to the presiding judge. And that's if you don't get shot by an over eager, not to mention and understandably, frightened copper. Who has no idea who you are. So like most such things, it depends on where you are.
Most CCW rules say things like "in imminent danger of loss of life or serious injury". How far away that is is usually determined in court too.
Anyway, 25 meters is roughly 82 feet. 25 yards is 75 feet. Far more than the width of a typical house lot. Shooting at those distances is still great fun though.
"...dismiss the pistol as a waste of time..." The military doesn't count. Pistols issued there are mostly status symbols and have nothing to do with CCW. Anyway, it's far easier to teach a complete neophyte to shoot a rifle than it is to shoot a hand gun. S'why there's such a thing as an M1 Carbine and an M4.
"...rifle matches..." Don't count either.
 
This is a short vid of Hickock 45 shooting a Glock 19 on his range.

https://youtu.be/ri5AyXzxb4o

I don't know the ranges,but in other vids he slaps all the targets around with a variety of handguns...most of them loaned. His percentage of hits standing on his hind legs is pretty good..

This isn't about me. I don't claim to be as skilled as Hickock.

But IMO,he's a little more "like us" than a Miculek.

And I could shoot at his range and do OK.

I'm not saying Hickock or myself will shoot an "X MOA" group at 200 yds with a common handgun.

But I'd bet on a torso size target taking some hits out of a magazine. My point was about making some "dangerous real estate" more than making wild claims.

My younger days of shooting bullseye were about 270 something averages for the 30 shots.I averaged keeping them in the 9 ring.Nothing to brag about,nothing to be ashamed of.

Back when Pennzoil came in yellow quart cans,the cans were a favorite 100 yd target for my Ruger SBH,sitting,leaning aganst a wheel and using my knees. I hit often.

What most folks have never experienced,and so may not know how to understand,for about 25 years I had access to roughly 2000 acres of private North Colorado Ranch land.

I shot there a LOT. I had the luxury of picking any rock or bush on any hill or bluff that would stop a bullet and taking a shot,just cuz.


You can't make the shot if you don't take it. Sometimes it was near indirect fire. Across canyon? 400 yds? 500 yds? So what. The bullet would stop. If I could see a dust puffI had feed back.


You do that stuff enough,you get a feel.


We have a range that is 300 yds local. I've played with my 1911 at 300 a fair amount. I'm not launching poke and hope bullets into the sky.

Remember,I was not talking about typical robbery self defense.


The scenario might be like Steve Scalise. Somebody is whanging at me with an SKS. I'm just saying I can make life dangerous for him,and MAYBE stop him.

Beats the alternative.


As far as the critique that said "I own every shot fired" Well. I'll give that thought "nice dogma" but I take a pragmatic view when people are being killed with a long gun.


Offering the scenario of the Dayton shootings,I give the responding officers the highest possible respect for ending the threat in less than one minute.


I read something about maybe 45 count LEO brass on the ground.


I'm sure none of the officers can say for sure where every bullet stopped.


So what? Its a risk management thing. There is a rifle and shooter killing people. Bang,dead.Bang,another dead,bang dead. Innocent people.


You have your weapon. Everyone faces choices. You can get lost in dogma.


Bang,another death. A child. Bang


And you can live with your choice
 
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Beyond 7 yards, in most jurisdictions, it isn’t considered ‘self-defense’.
Click to expand...

By jurisdictions, you mean the patrol area of the local cops, local law, or state law?

Have you actually seen this documented ANYWHERE? Have you ever seen a court case that stated that self defense is limited to X-distance, not just for the particular case, but as a rule? Have you ever seen this codified in any law?

Please share with us where this is document for any jurisdiction. Should not be hard since you said it was in most.
 
Folks, it get different with some one shooting at you. That's wht cops and GIs some times use the spray n pray plan.
 
I have been practicing defensive drills at 25, 35, and 50 yards for about two years now. The target is a common silhouette-type steel target, about 18 inches tall, maybe 12 inches wide. The drill is three rounds on steel from the draw in 10 seconds at 25 and 35 yards. 15 seconds at 50. One drill standing, one drill from a knee.

I've gotten to where I'll get hits about 90% of the time. It took a lot of practice, but I eventually figured out how to be consistent.

However, the steel isn't shooting back. But I started this drill in earnest when I was at my Wal-Mart one day and realized that most of the aisles were much longer than 21 feet. In fact, the average aisles was better than 30 paces end to end. With my stride, that's about 33 yards. The longest aisles are more than 70 paces. And it seems there's a fair number of bad guys that like hunting the rest of us at Wal-Mart.

So I decided that I should practice at longer ranges.
 
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