Glenn E. Meyer
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I know a case where the good guy intervened and was winning in the struggle with the bad guy. The law arrived and killed the good guy - despite the witnesses saying he was the good guy. Oops.
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Local grocery store got held up at gun point..
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csmss said:If the robber raised the gun such that it was then pointed at someone's head, I would likely conclude that he was planning to fire and react accordingly.
Is there some special robber training that teaches only headshots somewhere?
Does the phrase "center of mass" have any meaning to you?
I was in a bank once, off duty, doing my own bank stuff. Bank teller suddenly yells "I've been robbed!". Another off duty officer and myself tackled and held at gunpoint the guy who robbed her and was walking out the door.
Turns out the "robber" was an employee from bank corporate loss prevention. The exercise was he'd hand the teller a very recognizable card indicating "you've been robbed" and she was supposed to do the correct thing (hit the silent alarm, take note of the description etc). Tellers all knew it could happen. Corporate announced it etc. The teller knew she wasn't being really robbed. She was just so flustered that she got "hit" by the corporate test, she had to panic and yell.
Could have been a really bad day for the corporate guy if he'd gone for his wallet.
While I covered security for the other officer making the arrest, I could have easily shot another bank employee coming out of the bank to tell me "It's ok". Probably the only reason I didn't is that I recognized the 2nd employee as someone who I'd seen working there for a long time. She didn't stop coming towards me even though I was gun drawn, aiming at her.
The young girl teller got quite an education that day, as did corporate loss prevention and the other bank employee. They stopped doing that scenario.
There were a lot of incorrect assumptions and mistakes made that day. And luckily for everyone, a lot of correct guesses by the two officers who didn't shoot.
Sgt Lumpy
Turns out the "robber" was an employee from bank corporate loss prevention. The exercise was he'd hand the teller a very recognizable card indicating "you've been robbed" and she was supposed to do the correct thing (hit the silent alarm, take note of the description etc). Tellers all knew it could happen. Corporate announced it etc. The teller knew she wasn't being really robbed. She was just so flustered that she got "hit" by the corporate test, she had to panic and yell.
Could have been a really bad day for the corporate guy if he'd gone for his wallet.
While I covered security for the other officer making the arrest, I could have easily shot another bank employee coming out of the bank to tell me "It's ok". Probably the only reason I didn't is that I recognized the 2nd employee as someone who I'd seen working there for a long time. She didn't stop coming towards me even though I was gun drawn, aiming at her.
The young girl teller got quite an education that day, as did corporate loss prevention and the other bank employee. They stopped doing that scenario.
There were a lot of incorrect assumptions and mistakes made that day. And luckily for everyone, a lot of correct guesses by the two officers who didn't shoot.
Sgt Lumpy
Don't patronize me. Pointing a firearm at someone else's head is ESPECIALLY provocative and a headshot is far more likely to produce instantaneous (or nearly so) death than a shot to the torso.Is there some special robber training that teaches only headshots somewhere?
Does the phrase "center of mass" have any meaning to you?
I'd suggest you save your unwarranted sarcasm and use it elsewhere.
Thanks everyone for your input. I guess what it boils down to is that there are too many factors that can come into play that would determine what the right decision would be, and I would've had to just go with my instinct.
On a different note I really enjoy everyone's input and opinions, and SGT LUMPY you've got some really cool stories. I bet we could talk for hours in person! Lol.
On a different note I really enjoy everyone's input and opinions, and SGT LUMPY you've got some really cool stories. I bet we could talk for hours in person! Lol.
cmss said:Don't patronize me. Pointing a firearm at someone else's head is ESPECIALLY provocative and a headshot is far more likely to produce instantaneous (or nearly so) death than a shot to the torso.
Sorry, pointing a firearm at someone ANYWHERE is "especially provocative".
cmss said:If the robber raised the gun such that it was then pointed at someone's head, I would likely conclude that he was planning to fire and react accordingly.
Have you ever seen someone shot in the abdomen or chest? You don't believe those wounds are worth worrying about?
You just seem not to want to understand the point. Yes, I've seen plenty of photographs of GSW's to virtually every part of the human body, and yes, strikes to the vital organs of the torso (ie heart, lungs, liver, kidney, etc.) are quite dangerous and frequently deadly. However, given prompt medical attention, these wounds are more survivable than penetrating injuries to the brain. If you can't understand that, I simply do not know what to tell you.Sorry, pointing a firearm at someone ANYWHERE is "especially provocative".
Have you ever seen someone shot in the abdomen or chest? You don't believe those wounds are worth worrying about?
Apparently I don't understand what you're trying to say.
Maybe a couple of examples from you would help enlighten me.
1) Let's say you're in the store, the bad guy has his gun pointed at the storekeep's waist, your gun is in your holster. What do you do?
2) Same situation as #1, except the bad guy's gun is pointed at the storekeep's head. What do you do differently?
3) You're in the store, the bad guy has his gun pointed at the storekeep's waist, your gun is in your hand pointed at the bad guy. What do you do?
4) Same situation as #3, except the bad guy's gun is pointed at the storekeep's head. What do you do differently?
I personally see no difference between 1 & 2, or between 3 & 4. My reaction will be the same for 1 & 2, and the same for 3 & 4. I'm not going to base my reaction on something (bad guy's specific point of aim) that the bad guy has the option to change literally in the blink of an eye.
The storekeep is being threatened with deadly force in every case. If the bad guy decides to shoot, then the difference in the time required for him to take the headshot, or else to shift his point of aim from the torso to the head then take the headshot, is measured in hundredths of a second. Far quicker than you'll have time to do anything about it.
cmss said:One thing I think I would find important in such a situation is where exactly the robber has his/her weapon pointed. If it's at the storekeep's waist, that's an entirely different kettle of fish than if it's pointed at the storekeep's head.
Maybe a couple of examples from you would help enlighten me.
1) Let's say you're in the store, the bad guy has his gun pointed at the storekeep's waist, your gun is in your holster. What do you do?
2) Same situation as #1, except the bad guy's gun is pointed at the storekeep's head. What do you do differently?
3) You're in the store, the bad guy has his gun pointed at the storekeep's waist, your gun is in your hand pointed at the bad guy. What do you do?
4) Same situation as #3, except the bad guy's gun is pointed at the storekeep's head. What do you do differently?
I personally see no difference between 1 & 2, or between 3 & 4. My reaction will be the same for 1 & 2, and the same for 3 & 4. I'm not going to base my reaction on something (bad guy's specific point of aim) that the bad guy has the option to change literally in the blink of an eye.
The storekeep is being threatened with deadly force in every case. If the bad guy decides to shoot, then the difference in the time required for him to take the headshot, or else to shift his point of aim from the torso to the head then take the headshot, is measured in hundredths of a second. Far quicker than you'll have time to do anything about it.
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I've already told my wife (b/c I don't believe in pop quizzes) that if I am carrying and we walk in on a robbery (or it walks in on us), I'm not going to pull. It's just money.
That said, if the robbery goes violent, the scenario has changed.
The happy medium in my mind would be to try to pull, conceal and watch. Circumstances would dictate if that's an option.
That said, if the robbery goes violent, the scenario has changed.
The happy medium in my mind would be to try to pull, conceal and watch. Circumstances would dictate if that's an option.
Honestly this is a stage that every person new to carry goes thru, granted some a greater degree then others.* I would suggest reading and training to help give you the tools to make the right decision if something like this happens. Some believe they would act others would not. It isn't black & white and it is something for you to decide.
My .02 just take care of you and yours, any intervention with unknown persons and variables can spiral out of control rapidly due to your escalation of the situation. As Lumpy and others have said you don't know enough to act. Or even if you do what if the gun is a criminal and just plans to rob the place and upon seeing you draw your gun panics and a gunfight in your direction ensues injuring a loved one and a stranger. Its gonna be hard to prove that you were not @ fault for that. Or that the few bucks he took was worth the injuries.
Be a good witness. Protect you and your family.
My .02 just take care of you and yours, any intervention with unknown persons and variables can spiral out of control rapidly due to your escalation of the situation. As Lumpy and others have said you don't know enough to act. Or even if you do what if the gun is a criminal and just plans to rob the place and upon seeing you draw your gun panics and a gunfight in your direction ensues injuring a loved one and a stranger. Its gonna be hard to prove that you were not @ fault for that. Or that the few bucks he took was worth the injuries.
Be a good witness. Protect you and your family.
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Maybe a couple of examples from you would help enlighten me.
1) Let's say you're in the store, the bad guy has his gun pointed at the storekeep's waist, your gun is in your holster. What do you do?
2) Same situation as #1, except the bad guy's gun is pointed at the storekeep's head. What do you do differently?
3) You're in the store, the bad guy has his gun pointed at the storekeep's waist, your gun is in your hand pointed at the bad guy. What do you do?
4) Same situation as #3, except the bad guy's gun is pointed at the storekeep's head. What do you do differently?
I personally see no difference between 1 & 2, or between 3 & 4. My reaction will be the same for 1 & 2, and the same for 3 & 4. I'm not going to base my reaction on something (bad guy's specific point of aim) that the bad guy has the option to change literally in the blink of an eye.
The storekeep is being threatened with deadly force in every case. If the bad guy decides to shoot, then the difference in the time required for him to take the headshot, or else to shift his point of aim from the torso to the head then take the headshot, is measured in hundredths of a second. Far quicker than you'll have time to do anything about it.
Asking anyone to pose yes/no answers to ridiculously incomplete scenarios demonstrates you really don't understand this.
And, for the record, just to hopefully, finally, get past your limited comprehension threshold, I never suggested that the storekeeper wasn't threatened with deadly force. That you cannot see gradations in the level of threat (and consequences thereof) speaks to your ignorance, deliberate or otherwise.
Seems pretty simple to me. My reaction will be the same whether the threat weapon is pointed at the head or the torso.
You seem to have a problem describing what you believe the appropriate difference would be. But I've only been a sheriff for about 8 years. Exactly NONE of the training or classes that I have been a part of have covered optional tactics based on whether the threat weapon is pointed at the head or torso.
Do you have ANY references to ANY kind of recognized literature or training that supports your blatherings? Are you capable of sharing at least a minimal thought on what you would do differently between a gun pointed at someone's torso and one pointed at someone's head?
You seem to have a problem describing what you believe the appropriate difference would be. But I've only been a sheriff for about 8 years. Exactly NONE of the training or classes that I have been a part of have covered optional tactics based on whether the threat weapon is pointed at the head or torso.
Do you have ANY references to ANY kind of recognized literature or training that supports your blatherings? Are you capable of sharing at least a minimal thought on what you would do differently between a gun pointed at someone's torso and one pointed at someone's head?
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You know this how, exactly? Are you a robot? You always know exactly how you will react in every situation, no matter how the actual context varies from how you imagined it? Sheesh.Seems pretty simple to me. My reaction will be the same whether the threat weapon is pointed at the head or the torso.
***? I have no problem at all describing the difference. A gunshot wound to the brain is nearly universally lethal, whereas with prompt treatment, the victim generally has a reasonable chance of surviving a torso wound.You seem to have a problem describing what you believe the appropriate difference would be.
Glad I don't live in your county.But I've only been a sheriff for about 8 years.
No class on earth is a substitute for sound reasoning - and if you think going into a deadly force situation with a checklist is sound reasoning, well then your judgment is suspect indeed.Exactly NONE of the training or classes that I have been a part of have covered optional tactics based on whether the threat weapon is pointed at the head or torso.
Sigh. Your reading comprehension is tragically deficient. You still don't get the point, and probably never will. I will repeat it one last time, and then I'm done with this because it is, quite frankly, boring me. The point is that if the bad guy changes his point of aim from a place where it would be less dangerous to the victim to one that is MORE dangerous, that it would be an escalating factor/variable that makes the danger to the other party greater. Period. I simply do not understand why you cannot grasp what should be a very simple truth.Do you have ANY references to ANY kind of recognized literature or training that supports your blatherings?
Are you capable of sharing at least a minimal thought on what you would do differently between a gun pointed at someone's torso and one pointed at someone's head?
Double Naught Spy
New member
You're the sheriff?
Sgt Lumpy
You're an ex cop? Yes, he said he was a sheriff. You say you are an ex cop. You both type clearly. What's your point in asking him to restate his bona fides?
Brian Pfleuger
Moderator Emeritus
Drop the invectives, gentlemen. One and only warning.
My father used to own a towing service when I was very young in the worst area of Detroit. He told me latter in life that he had planned that if he was ever robbed he would just give the guy the money and be done... One day someone actually tried to rob him and he ended up kicking the guy with a shotgun through a window, himself unarmed. He also told me to always carry a single $100 bill in case I'm ever robbed when not working, that my grandfather made him do the same because drug addicts would kill someone they tried to rob who didn't have any money for "wasting their time" (it was a $20 in his case, darn inflation). I'd like to think that in the scenario the OP posted if it appeared that the robber just wanted the money I would be a good witness but none of us will ever know unless that day truely comes how we would react. There's a saying that the best of plans never survive initial contact. Today I carry a $100 even though I don't use cash ever, and I never leave the house unarmed, options...
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is there anything else I could have possibly done, being that I would've had my gun on me? Thanks.
I think the general principle here is that even though you are an armed license holder, you're not an officer of the law. Take good mental notes of the situation. Be a good witness for the police. Don't be the first to fire a shot. If the BG begins shooting, then you can defend yourself.
My LEO contacts tell me that armed robbers are a very high priority and detailed info from good witnesses leads to apprehension. Unfortunately, the usual quality of witnesses is very poor and they often have only sketchy information to go on until the criminal makes a wrong move.
is there anything else I could have possibly done, being that I would've had my gun on me?
I don't think we should look at any differently when armed vs unarmed. We shouldn't be putting ourselves into MORE danger, just because we're armed.
Sgt Lumpy
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But I've only been a sheriff for about 8 years
You're the sheriff?
Sgt Lumpy
Kinda off topic, but I was wondering myself. Are you the sheriff of your county/parish, or are you a deputy?
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