Local grocery store got held up at gun point..

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The basic questions in a store robbery - are you willing to shoot someone over just property?
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Good question, considering the robber showed intent, opportunity, and ability to kill the clerk with a gun. Is it then really over just property? That is the tough call that needs to be made at the time followed by how one will decide to act or not.
 
That's the problem. Most get the money and run. So what are the odds?

Even if it a 'good' shot, you may have all kinds of consequences.

To play the what if game - to show it is complex - let's say it the robber is a kid. It's a righteous shoot but from research we did with police, even with a righteous shoot, many of them thought they would have psychological problems. Many officers in situations like that were off the force in a couple of years.

Not only you but then you get fun stuff like social shunning or harassment from people you know and strangers. It happens to your family too.

It's not an action to take lightly.
 
I don't think anyone's taking this lightly - in my opinion this is one of the most complex and disconcerting scenarios that could possibly confront me in my daily travels. And it's one reason I avoid these small stores like the plague. The last thing on earth I want is to face the "what if" game for real.
 
Being "mentally prepared" means a lot more than "I'm man enough to pull the trigger."

It means evaluating and understanding the laws, potential pitfalls, various scenarios, how to avoid and deescalate and understanding that the aftermath is going to be awful.
 
Every scenario is different. No two are alike. At all.

There is always different suspects, cover, victims, intentions..etc. We can sit here and type this up all day about what X would do. The Y would say you can't do that. Then Z would add an "what if" scenario to it. It never ends.

Just train. Make a clear judgment. Or at least try. From what I recall, you simply jump into autopilot. :(


Keep
Calm
and
Train
On ;)
 
Luckily no one was injured, and they still haven't caught the person. My dad said he saw the surveillance video of the robbery. The guy came in with a pistol pointed in the air wearing a hoodie and a mask, went behind the register and ordered the girl on the ground, took the money and ran out.

Now I assume the fact that he wasn't actually pointing the gun at anyone would've come into play, at least in my mind. That would've told me he most likely wasn't going to injure anyone, and even though it's hard to say in the heat of the moment, I most likely would've just been a good witness, especially in NY state.
 
One thing I think I would find important in such a situation is where exactly the robber has his/her weapon pointed. If it's at the storekeep's waist, that's an entirely different kettle of fish than if it's pointed at the storekeep's head. A shot to the lower torso, while undoubtedly grievously painful, is less likely to kill than a shot to the brain. I think that matters - as do many other phenomena which will arise as the event unfolds.
 
One thing I think I would find important in such a situation is where exactly the robber has his/her weapon pointed. If it's at the storekeep's waist, that's an entirely different kettle of fish than if it's pointed at the storekeep's head. A shot to the lower torso, while undoubtedly grievously painful, is less likely to kill than a shot to the brain. I think that matters - as do many other phenomena which will arise as the event unfolds.
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I don't get it. As if he can't raise the gun at any given time?

That's not a good point.
 
I don't get it. As if he can't raise the gun at any given time?

That's not a good point.
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If the robber raised the gun such that it was then pointed at someone's head, I would likely conclude that he was planning to fire and react accordingly.
 
The basic questions in a store robbery - are you willing to shoot someone over just property? Are you willing to shoot an innocent by mistake - seen that. Are you willing to die and have your family suffer the consequences for someone?
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It's not shooting someone over property, period. The decision is whether the risks of shooting the bad guy outweigh the risks of not shooting the bad guy.

If you're the only two people in the store, and he's taking you to the back room or in his car, I think just about everyone will agree the risks of compliance are higher than the risks of fighting back. If there are 30 people crowded around the bad guy, and he's pretty calm, most people will agree that the risks of a shootout are higher than the risk of compliance.

The rest of the scenarios are somewhere between a judgment call and a crap shoot.
 
While I would not shoot over money or property, neither would I assume that a shot to the torso will be survivable.

One thing you have to accept in the decision to carry is that someone will second guess any decision you make. I once did successful CPR on a woman who was blue and had no detectable pulse at either the wrist or the carotid artery, only to have her husband complain later that, because her chest was sore afterward, I must have done the chest compressions too hard. If you shoot before the armed robber shoots, you are going to be second guessed; if you shoot after the armed robber shoots, you are going to be second guessed, too, by different people. Choose your poison.

Can it be legitimately argued that a person who is committing an armed robbery is not creating a legitimate fear of death or serious harm to his victim, though? I am not saying that it is always advisable, but I have a hard time thinking it would be found not justifiable.
 
That could be a monsterously incorrect assumption. I learned that in the training scenario I described above.


Sgt Lumpy
 
We did one where we were in a store. A woman runs in and a guy tackles her. One of the students 'shoots' him. Guess what he was an undercover cop chasing her from some crime outside. OOPS.

I don't have the numbers in front of me but a significant number of undercover cops have been shot by uniformed officers misreading the scene. I think (but would have to look up) that something like 1 in 6 undercovers have been held at gun point by uniformed officers. This means in the fog of war, bad things can happen.

An armed robbery certainly means you fear for your life and might be legally covered. That doesn't mean that shooting is a good idea. As said, that decision is contextual on many dimensions.

That's why training is important - it is neat to say you will act accordingly - but how's your accuracy in a melee? In matches and training, in tight quarters under stress - people miss and/or shoot the good guy.

I've seen national champs - shoot the bystander.
 
Reminds of hearing from a few different sources that in a street fights bystanders(with out knowledge of the full incident) usually think the guy on top, the guy with the weapon or the guy winning is the attacker.
 
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