loading up my 9mm with glaser blue safety slugs

[ClydeFrog]

DoD/USSOCOM testing of frangibles, spec ops ammunition...

In a older topic post either on TFL or another gun forum, a member put up a interesting link on how a US military agency(DoD/DARPA) or some lab contracted to do R&D work for the US Special Operations Command(USSOCOM) found that the LeMas/RBCD rounds were awful and a huge waste of tax $$$.
I don't recall all the details but the point of the R&D lab's report is that the frangible maker's claims were grossly over-stated.

I'd say the use of .410s & the Judge revolvers is going slightly off topic(based on the use of Glaser Safety Slugs) but I agree with the point(s).
A .410/.45LC snub revolver may deter a violent attack in some applications but if you are required to fire it at close range then a shotshell or a well made frangible load is a smarter choice(over a full house magnum or hunting type bullet).
ClydeFrog

 

[Webleymkv]

The shows on truTV are compilations of security camera videos, not staged, so they are actual criminals.

It's still TV and there are still editors and producers. The problem with "reality" TV is that you usually only see the slice of reality that the producer thinks is interesting, dramatic, or entertaining.

No, they don't have ALL crimes on video, but since I haven't seen one where the criminal used two hands, let alone the Weaver we were discussing in 100+ cirmes, suppose you show me one where they did use the Weaver. Surely there is one. Show me.

I'm not sure if you're missing the point entirely or simply trying to change the argument to suit you. I never said that every criminal would use a particular two-handed stance nor did I even say that it was particularly common. I only suggested that it was possible and worthy of consideration when choosing gun and ammunition. It wasy you, however, that suggested that, because you'd never seen a criminal use a two-handed stance on TV that the possiblity wasn't worthy of consideration.

It is not a manufacturers claim. In fact RBCD specifically does NOT make that claim. I have seen RBCD penetrate a threat level III vest from a 9mm submachine gun. I would guess that it would penetrate from a handgun as well because the 9mm velocity rating on a Level III is 1400 fps, Level II is 1175 fps, and Level IIa is 1090 fps. http://hsarmor.com/htm/NIJ.htm

Your link only states the types of loadings which various body armors are rated to protect against, but nowhere is any testing data showing that RBCD or any other frangible ammo. Also, you're ignoring bullet construction entirely as the 9mm loadings listed in your links are specifically stated to be FMJ. You cannot simply assume that velocity will trump everthing while ignoring bullet construction entirely.

The reason that 5.7mm FN pistol penetrates a vest with a 28gr bullet is the 2000 fps velocity. Sure enought the 85gr 7.62x25 is 1520 fps and the 71gr 9mm THV is over 1500 fps as well. All exceed the velocity threshold for Level II and IIa and RBCD does that in many calibers.

Again, you're ignoring not only bullet construction, but also bullet diameter and cross-sectional density. Velocity is only one piece of the puzzle and you simply cannot ignore everything else and expect to get the same result.

I have seen the old version of RBCD .380 penetrate 12 layers of a 15 layer vest as well. When I did a demo at 'The Farm' outside SLC about 7 or 8 years ago the .40 S&W 180gr FMJ wouldn't punch a mail box. The RBCD standard .40 S&W blew holes through the steel and it still performed in the block of clay placed inside the box.

Again, do you have a link or reference where I could see these types of results myself?

Tell you what. I will put my money where my mouth is. You pick the caliber (.32 ACP, .380 ACP, .38 Spc, 9x19, .357 mag, .357 SIG, .40 S&W, .45 ACP, .41 mag, or .44 mag) and location. After spring thaw I will fly with a gun, my ammo, a piece of steel, Level II vest panels, some denim, and leather to simulate heavy clothing. You find the range, provide your own wonder ammo, and media, be it ballistic gel, gallon jugs of water, wet phone books, thawed out roasts, dead pigs, or clay. We can do some testing at self defense distance, say 5'-15'. I am willing to bet that those hollow points you are so fond of will clog up when they hit a leather jacket and fail to perform. I also don't think that they will punch the vest nor the sheet steel. I will be in Las Vegas for the SHOT Show in January and can easily get some range time there if that works for you. I can even try to get a trauma doctor from the local ER or teaching hospital to act as a judge. If my ammo works better you can reimburse my travel expenses and buy me a vest if mine gets holes punched in it, otherwise I eat it.

No need to go to all that trouble. I would be more than content with a link or reference of some independant testing of your wonder ammo showing that sort of performance. Surely, if the performance is as spectacular as you suggest, it would have caught the attention of the military, FBI, or at least some major police agency that would've bothered to test it.

 

[cltinseattle]

Hornady Personal Defense

I truly love it when someone starts a discussion that we all feel passionately about, one way or the other. Myself, I've been pretty impressed with the Hornady Critical Defense hollow points that have a little plug in the hollow point which makes it kind of a hybrid falling somewhere between a JHP and a FMJ.

 

[Webleymkv]

When such prefrag bullets are loaded to proper velocities, they outperform normal jhp's by a wide margin on large mammalian targets. The belief in the "need" for lots of penetration is based upon a lot of misdirection by the FBI, in an attempt to hide the fact that 8 of their agents missed Platt over 50 times, from 15 ft or less, in Miami, in 1987, or whenever that epic battle occurred.

To be sure, the FBI's conclusions after the Miami shootout of 1986 were not perfect and they most likely did overemphasize the performance of the 115gr Winchester Silvertip in order to draw attention away from the numerous other mistakes that were made. However, the studies and research that support the idea of ultra-high velocity bullets which rapidly expand/fragment are not perfect either. The Marshall/Sanow study is probably the most well-known example of that school of thought and, like all case studies, there are simply too many uncontrolled variables in it to draw concrete conclusions from.

What I do think is significant, however, is that there are several loadings that both meet the FBI/Fackler criteria and were rated quite highly in the Marshall/Sanow study and other similar works. Examples of such loadings include various 124gr 9mm JHP, various 200-230gr .45 ACP JHP, Remington and Federal .357 Magnum 125gr JHP, and various 155-165gr .40 S&W JHP. To my mind, a loading which can do quite well in works that seem to come to polar opposite conclusions is probably the all-around best choice. While I'm no fan of very lightweight high-velocity loadings like most frangibles, neither am I particularly impressed with overly heavy bullets at relatively low velocities such as most 147gr 9mm JHP's.

 

[BGutzman]

The problem with "reality" TV is that you usually only see the slice of reality that the producer thinks is interesting, dramatic, or entertaining.

Not to mention some of the "Reality" shows are anything but reality.... I hate it when they show some ignorant fool using a gun in a totally crazy way (supposedly for self defense) and no one goes to prison for violating every possible law regarding the use of deadly force or the display of a handgun.

Displaying guns for "attacks" that are anything but rising to the level of life threatening.

Its all staged and if it wasnt a lot of these shows would have nothing to show but a bunch of actors in prison... They help build a bad image of guns, show completely illegal and improper use and are just ignorant...

 

[Webleymkv]

Very few of today's jhp's expand worth a hoot in animals, so I don't think that they amount to a hoot, and I am constantly bombarded with this "penetration" baloney.

Actually, there are several JHP's which perform quite well in animals. The late Stephen A. Camp took a javelina with a Sig P210 9mm loaded with 124gr JHP's and got qutie satisfactory performance (his account can be read on his website http://www.hipowersandhandguns.com). I've also seen many similar accounts of 9mm, .40 S&W, .357 Magnum, and .45 ACP JHP loadings being used to cleanly take feral hogs, deer, and other similarly-sized game.

It is worthy of note, however, that the performance of a particular loading on an animal is a poor predictor of what it will do when used against a human because the anatomy of erect bipeds and quadripeds is quite different. More often than not, handgun loadings designed for hunting deer, feral hogs, and other similarly sized or larger game will expand less aggressively and penetrate more deeply than that designed for anti-personnel use. While certain JHP's like Nosler Partition Gold and Winchester Platinum Tip are fairly well regarded by hunters, JSP and LSWC bullets are also widely and successfully used in the pursuit of big game.

If penetration really was/is the key factor in stopping attacks, we wouldn't have all the (fully documented) horror stories about 9mm balll and .38 lrn failing, after many chest hits were attained.

While it is true that penetration is not the only piece of the puzzle, neither is expansion, fragmentation, velocity, or any other single factor. While there are some pretty spectactular failures reported with non-expanding bullets, there are also equally spectacular failures with expanding/fragmenting bullets too. While the ideal is a bullet that can expand and maybe even fragment a bit while still penetrating adequately, I would much rather have a deep-penetrating bullet that does not expand than an expanding bullet that doesn't penetrate adequately.

 

[Webleymkv]

indeed. So rare, in fact, that I discount the issue entirely. I have loaded the 85 gr 380 Silvertip to 1650 fps, hit chucks and coons on the shoulder blade with it, and dropped them. With ribcage hits, they exited. That bullet/jacket is far more fragile than say, that of the 100 gr CorBon PowRball, and I've had 124 gr and heavier jhp's fail to expand, a lot more often than just once.

Woodchucks and Raccoons are much smaller than people and the performance of a particular loading on such an animal doesn't really tell us much about what it will do to a person.

Failures with JHP's are quite rare because, on the whole, they are for the most part much better than FMJ, LRN, or other non-expanding bullets. It is worthy of note, however, that the majority of accounts of bullet effectiveness comes from military and LEO sources because those are the types that most often have to shoot people. You'll almost never hear of a JHP failure from the military because, with the exeption of a few very specialized roles, they are stuck with FMJ only. LE does predominantly use expanding ammunition, but the use of very light for caliber JHP's largely went by the wayside about 20 years ago and the use of frangibles has never been widespread. Simply put, the JHP's that we rarely hear of failures with are mostly ones which meet the FBI's criteria. We're not hearing about failures with frangibles and super-light, ultra-fast bullets largely because very few people are using them.

I Knew Steve a bit, and one success does not a jhp expander prove. I also know that he favored P35's, by a wide margin, and that means 5" barrels. 4" barrels tend to get 50 fps less, and that sometimes means a lot when it comes to expansion.

50fps is a rather small variance in velocity and can be caused by factors such temperature, atmospheric pressure, elevation, or even manufacturing tolerances between examples of the same gun. Because of this, most modern JHP's are designed to work within a velocity "window" of 200-300fps to account for such variances as well as barrel length.

Also, animals don't wear clothing, people do. often, jhps "clog" when clothing debris fills up their nose cavities. It requires "extra" velocity to "clear out" that debris. In time for the bullet to properly expand in the vitals, that is.

While clogging was indeed a problem with many older JHP designs such as Winchester Silvertip and Federal Hi-Shok, newer designs such as Winchester SXT, Federal HST, and Speer Gold Dot perform much better through clothing and other intermediate barriers. There are several widely available JHP's which expand quite reliably not only in bare gelatin, but also after penetrating 4 layers of denim and other barriers such as auto glass and sheet steel. The only commonly tested barriers which seem to routinely cause failure to expand with modern JHP's is drywall and plywood, but those are really of greater concern to LEO's than private individuals.

 

[ClydeFrog]

Florida Div of Licensing, Mylicensesite.com...

FWIW;
The Florida Div of Licensing, www.Mylicensesite.com , by FS493 does NOT allow the use of frangible or exotic type rounds for use on duty by G license holders(security guards, protective services, PIs, etc).
I disagree with the policy/standard but a few industry panel members say the QC(factory quality) & ballistics are not as sound or stable as regular JHPs or FMJs(semi auto pistol rounds).
I see their point but a few well made pistol ammunition lines can meet the standards for use in areas like courts, medical centers, malls, etc.
The licensed/trained security officers or protective service detail members should have that choice if they feel it's prudent or best for the security site.

CorBon now owns/runs Glaser & Magsafe is a well known firm based in central Florida near Orlando.

ClydeFrog
www.shopcorbon.com www.magsafeonline.com

 

[Bartholomew Roberts]

the glaser 9mm went in and literally exploded the body. i actually got some gore splashed on me from 5yds. it never even had an "exit wound" in the sense of a projectile leaving.

it also is designed to go as deep as internal organs and then spread.

So it won't exit a groundhog; but it can hit internal organs? Glaser Blue is loaded with #12 shot - out of a 12ga shotgun, that won't even penetrate a few inches of bare jello; so I'm curious how it gets more penetration out of a 9mm bore?

When I first joined TFL, I was a fan of Glaser rounds. I describe in this thread (graphic content) why that is no longer the case.

 

[.357SIG]

I see a lot of ridiculous statements floating around here. Please...everyone do yourselves a favor and google a little bit about penetrating trauma before posting anything "factual" again. With a low-to-medium velocity handgun round, it is correct that the only reliable wounding factor is the permanent cavity produced as the bullet traverses the body part. This can include headshots. I've seen close-range headshots that only resulted in very minor paralysis and/or numbness as a long-term effect. Handgun wounds are much, much less effective than people on internet gun boards would have you believe. Don't believe it? Ask your local trauma surgeon.

There is no magic bullet, as many believe. In the body, even an experienced surgeon would be hard-pressed to differentiate the wounds of a cheap JHP and a premium one. Furthermore, the same could be said about the wounds created by different calibers of rounds.

I've worked as a LEO in a large city, and currently work in a hospital setting at a level 1 trauma center. I've seen GSWs from both perspectives.

 

[aryfrosty]

Permanent cavity wounds vs. ?

I believe that you're right about your hypothesis that there may often, not always, often, be little difference in "cheap" vs. premium projectiles. There is a great deal of difference in the damage caused by different calibers. I am familiar with gs cases where major organs, including the heart, have been damaged but the damage was insufficient to stop the bad guy immediately. Conversely, there are cases I have studied, in the field and in the ER, where a projectile of sufficiently heavy weight and moderate volicity has stopped the interaction even when the person receiving the projectile did not take a fatal wound.
I don't intend to "kick doggies" by responding to this post. An intelligent discussion can be enjoyed when all sides recognize that a difference of opinion is not exclusive of the experiences of others.
I like Glasers. I live in a city close to the houses of others and I would never accept "home protection" at the cost of nearly certain danger to the neighbors. I accept that they are not, and have never been, "one shot stoppers". I do accept that they have a niche in personal protection. I became a cop 41 years ago and was priviledged to have been certified as a paramedic and paramedic level instructor for 14 of those years. For the last years of my career I was a deputy coroner in my home county. After participating in many post mortem exams I have seen wounds from a .22LR kill a 300 pound man who had absorbed impacts from a 12 ga slug earlier in his life. I know that interpretation of the results of a GSW are subject to the understanding of the person doing the interpretations. Regards.

 

[.357SIG]

Let me clarify...calibers commonly used for defense. Of course there will be a difference between a .22 short and a .44 mag wound, but anything 9mm to .45 is often indistinguishable, even by the best surgeons.

 

[Shadi Khalil]

Hydrashoks are still a very valid choice.

As are Gold Dots, Golden Sabres, and Winchester SXTs.

There are others, as well.

I myself have used Hydrashoks for years, I especially like the 125gr .357 mags. This is probably because they were the first defensive rounds I purchased for my first real carry gun. I guess I have a soft spot for them...
As for .9mm defensive ammo that's NOT a safety slug, you really just need to try out different stuff and see what works best for you and the gun. It can get expensive but it's well worth it to find your perfect carry round.

 

[.357SIG]

Another aspect of this discussion no one is touching on is the issue of missing your target under stress, which is VERY common. In that case, a frangible round might hit the person down the street pushing the baby carriage. The only way the argument holds water is if you can guarantee 100% shot accuracy under stress, under rapid movement, and while multitasking to save you life. This is something even the most skilled and experienced can't do.

Another question one might ask is exactly how much energy an overpenetrated round might carry out to another target? After going through an obliqued chest and arm, do you feel it would have enough "oomph" to cause damage to something beyond it? I don't think anyone has tested this theory yet...

Gun people tend to analyze things to the point of creating their own "facts" and data, which often do not hold water when compared to real life examples. In fact, much of it has been practically proven to be incorrect. (KE transfer and hydrostatic shock as wounding factors with pistol rounds comes to mind.)

 

[10mm4ever]

While some of these frangible loads are capable of inflicting some nasty looking surface wounds, no way I'd trust my life to any of them.

 

[BGutzman]

differentiate the wounds of a cheap JHP and a premium one

What you say is probably true but the difference between a cheap JHP and a premium JHP is usually the over all reliability in expansion.

Maybe a cheap JHP full expands 60% of the time and premium one 85% of the time. I myself prefer the 85% chance of full expansion. This is just a example but generally you do get what you pay for in weapons and ammunition.

 

[White Mamba]

You don't want the projectile to fragment!

You want it to expand & stay in one piece causing a larger wound channel & more blood loss.

I'd recommend the Cor-Bon DPX 115gr 9mm +P. It has a solid copper projectile.

It's truly a devastating round!