loading up my 9mm with glaser blue safety slugs

[Mike Irwin]

"I have read FBI research report that stated that about 50% of those that are shot in an incident will lay down and stop fighting even if the wound did not incapacitate the person."

At which point you're talking not about "knockdown" power, you're talking about the psychological factors that can accompany being shot.

There are numerous accounts of people being shot at, but not hit, who do the exact same thing.

Then there are lots of people who, upon seeing a gun, stop what they're doing.

Are either of those to be counted as "knockdown" power, too?

No.

 

[nate45]

if i'm going hollow point, say golden sabres, do i go with 124gr or 147gr out so of a compact 9mm (walther pps, hk psp, etc)?

Those Golden Sabers are okay IF they function well in your handgun.

There are a whole range of a different 9mm cartridges that are acceptable for defense. Glaser Safety is NOT one of them.

Below are several acceptable 9mm defense cartridges. Also a link that will provide you with some education on the subject.

9 mm:
Barnes XPB 115 gr JHP (copper bullet)
Federal Tactical 124 gr JHP (LE9T1)
Federal HST 124 gr +P JHP (P9HST3)
Remington Golden Saber 124 gr +P JHP bonded (GSB9MMD)
Speer Gold Dot 124 gr +P JHP
Winchester Partition Gold 124 gr JHP (RA91P)
Winchester Ranger-T 124 gr +P JHP (RA9124TP)
Winchester Ranger-T 127 gr +P+ JHP (RA9TA)
Federal Tactical 135 gr +P JHP (LE9T5)
Federal HST 147 gr JHP (P9HST2)
Remington Golden Saber 147 gr JHP (GS9MMC)
Speer Gold Dot 147 gr JHP
Winchester Ranger-T 147 gr JHP (RA9T)
Winchester 147 gr bonded JHP (RA9B/Q4364)



Thoughts on Service Pistols, along with Duty and Self-Defense Ammo Recommendations

 

[Mrgunsngear]

I didn't see it in the above posts, but the 'safety slugs' had some pretty poor results on the Boxoftruth.com tests. They penetrated walls, ect... If you're contemplating using them, I'd look at his test findings. I realize it's not a ballistic lab, but his results are usually spot on.

 

[Shotgun693]

you more than likely will be at a close range(under 3 feet) & be able to shoot directly at a violent attacker(a front torso

When I was a young Cop we trained mostly for '3 shots, 3 seconds, 3 feet'. First gunfight I was in we started shooting at each other from about 50 yards ans continued until we were 80 yards a part. There's always that unlikely situation that's sneaks up on you.

 

[ClydeFrog]

Posts, Manhunter, Point of Impact....

This is what's frustrating about some topic posts & forums.
I agree with MI's last statement but as I wrote in my message, the 3x3x3 Rule conditions DO NOT apply to law enforcement.
Again, the use of frangibles or "exotic" rounds are best for close range or in a .44magnum, .45LC, .41magnum, etc.

BTW; I'm surprised no forum member brought up the 1986 film classic; Manhunter( www.imdb.com ) or Hunter's novel Point of Impact(the stink-bomb film was Shooter).
The FBI special agent/profiler character packed a Charter Arms Bulldog Pug with some old school Glaser Safety Slugs(blue).
A novel character described the frangible Glasers being able to cause wounds that looked like "instant spagetti" .

I also watched a ep of USA's Burn Notice where a evil-doer shot a guy with frangible only to cause a minor flesh wound.

My point is that frangibles are not meant for every weapon or use.

 

[Mike Irwin]

Funny you'd call Shooter a "stink bomb" and Manhunter a "classic."

I'd call them both something else entirely... abominations of the film maker's 'art.'

 

[jhenry]

Apparently Glassers do pretty well in movies and books. Not really a cogent argument for their real world application.

The thing Glasser Safety Slugs and their ilk do well is to separate buyers from money. What they don't do well has been pretty effectively pointed out already.

 

[nate45]

Again, the use of frangibles or "exotic" rounds are best for close range or in a .44magnum, .45LC, .41magnum, etc.

There is no best use for Glaser's when it comes to self defense. They should not be used for that purpose.

BTW; I'm surprised no forum member brought up the 1986 film classic; Manhunter( www.imdb.com ) or Hunter's novel Point of Impact(the stink-bomb film was Shooter).
The FBI special agent/profiler character packed a Charter Arms Bulldog Pug with some old school Glaser Safety Slugs(blue).
A novel character described the frangible Glasers being able to cause wounds that looked like "instant spagetti" .

You are surprised that no one mentioned fictional accounts of Glaser effectiveness or lack there of?

Outside of a 'What is your favorite gun movie' thread, subject matter on TFL, especially in regards to the efficacy of SD ammunition, tends to be reality based.

 

[Webleymkv]

When you consider how or when you'd really use a small frame BUG or back up to protect yourself, you more than likely will be at a close range(under 3 feet) & be able to shoot directly at a violent attacker(a front torso or chest shot, NOT from the side or at extended ranges).

There is no guarantee that circumstances, even for a private individual, will be as you describe. What you're basically describing here is a contact or near contact shot which is a very real possibility, perhaps even a likelihood, aganst and unarmed attacker or one wielding a non-projectile weapon. However, an attacker who is also armed with a firearm is much more likely to engage you from a greater distance. The greater the distance between two adversaries, the greater the chances that there will be intermediate barriers and shots at oblique angles. For example, a person aiming a handgun with a traditional two-handed hold has a good portion of their upper torso obstructed by their arms.

Also, even with a contact or near-contact shot, there is no guarantee that the relatively shallow penetration of a frangible bullet will be enough. Someone charging me leading with their shoulder makes the penetration required to reach the vital organs of their torso much greater that if I could engage them with a straight-on frontal shot. Likewise, even with a straight-on shot, deeper penetration may still be needed for a particularly large individual (300+ lb people aren't all that rare anymore).

 

[Jeff OTMG]

Once again, I am not to terribly concerned about penetration. I have NEVER seen or heard of the bad guy performing a Weaver stance, nor a Quell stance. They tend to not even use the sights let alone focus on the front sight to get a hit. Observation two. If the bad guy is using a Weaver stance you are dead. From personal experience, if you do not already have your gun in your hand BEFORE the other guy you have a serious problem. In other words you better make your shot before he acquires his stance or you are better off begging not to get shot. I pocket carry in the summer. I am not going to be able to quick draw and shoot anybody with a gun pointed at me. Running is usually the best option. I was being followed then chased in New Orleans 20 odd years ago. I ran, hid, drew from concealment, then I had the advantage. When he came around the corner he was looking down the barrel and decided he needed to be somewhere else. You have to have your gun out first. I was carrying Glasers, it would have been a frontal shot with an up angle as I was kneeling next to a large trash can.

Pre-frags are not particularly accurate. True, but the longest shot possible in my house is 40 feet and that is if I am standing in the back corner of the master bedroom shooting across the living room and into the hallway. Not a shot I am going to make, so realistically the shot would be more in the 20' to 25' range. RBCD is more accurate than the pre-frags.

I am more familiar with RBCD, but in many ways it acts like a pre-frag in bodies. I guess you guys don't consider a .223 from an 11.5" SBR to be a good for self defense out to 20'. So a 55 gr bullet at around 2500 fps from that short barrel is okay yet a 50 gr bullet at the same velocity from a handgun is useless.

Again, I have seen the x-rays of the pre-frag shots and they are horrendous. I have no problem trusting them for self-defense or home defense. I would not carry pre-frags as a duty round due to the lack of intermediate barrier penetration.

Also the .410 with shot would be a good self defense round IF it were constructed like a MagSafe/Glaser. Keep the shot bonded together untill impact and bring the velocity up a bunch. Unfortunately the pressures that the .410 operates at will not permit that. I would think that a contact wound from a .410 woould be bad, but I wonder how much of it would be from the gases.

 

[Sharpsdressed Man]

They may be a gimmick, but they will kill you. We had an officer shoot a dog with a .357 Glaser round, and an autopsy found that the torso shot resulted in pellets disrupting every organ in the throaci and abdominal cavities; lungs, heart, liver, stomach,etc. The dog was dropped instantly. When they DO penetrate, they are devastating.

 

[ClydeFrog]

humor-free zone...

I was using some "humor" in my last post about the films; Manhunter & the film; Shooter(based on the much better novel; Point of Impact).

As I stated, too, I would rather load up a snub Ruger AK .44 or .454 with a Magsafe or Glaser than have a powerful magnum round whiz by a evil-doer and smoke check a by-stander watering their lawn or opening a car door 2mi away.
CF
ps; I'd add that to me some "spec ops" or exotic ammunition claims have been way over the top(LeMas, DRT, ExtremeShock, Thunder-Zap).

 

[BGutzman]

If the bad guy is using a Weaver stance you are dead.

A body position or grip has zero lethality. Accuracy is king and if Weaver works for you great but it is hardly lethal... A grip is supportive as is a body position but thats all....

 

[aryfrosty]

Yep

I agree with that. You can stand on your head in a flowerpot if your aim is good and you'll still hit the target you're aiming at.

 

[Webleymkv]

I have NEVER seen or heard of the bad guy performing a Weaver stance, nor a Quell stance. They tend to not even use the sights let alone focus on the front sight to get a hit.

So you've never heard of a bad guy ever holding a handgun with two hands? My point about the Weaver stance, or any other two handed hold, is that a person holding something in front of them with two hands will be covering several vital structures with their hands and arms. This is true of a two-handed hold with a handgun, someone holding a rifle or shotgun, or even someone winding up to swing a baseball bat. The point is that it is not impossible, or even particularly unlikely, that you will have to penetrate extremities as well as several inches on torso in order to hit something vital and I'd rather have a bullet capable of doing so.

Observation two. If the bad guy is using a Weaver stance you are dead.

Really? So should we just give up and make our peace if the BG assumes a Weaver stance? A particular stance does not guarantee a hit and a hit does not guarantee incapacitation or death. I can't speak for anyone else, but if someone is trying to kill me or my loved ones, I'll fight that person to my last breath regardless of what stance or technique he's using and I don't want to have to worry about underpenetration.

Pre-frags are not particularly accurate. True, but the longest shot possible in my house is 40 feet and that is if I am standing in the back corner of the master bedroom shooting across the living room and into the hallway. Not a shot I am going to make, so realistically the shot would be more in the 20' to 25' range.

The issue isn't intrinsic accuracy, but rather change in point-of-impact. My .38 Special and .357 Magnum revolvers, which all have their sights regulated for 158gr bullets, shoot several inches low even at 15 yards. Frangible cartridges ususally use extremely light-for-caliber bullets which will change the point of impact even more markedy. While several inches may or may not be enough difference to make you completely miss, it may very well be the difference between hitting a vital organ and causing a flesh wound.

I am more familiar with RBCD, but in many ways it acts like a pre-frag in bodies. I guess you guys don't consider a .223 from an 11.5" SBR to be a good for self defense out to 20'. So a 55 gr bullet at around 2500 fps from that short barrel is okay yet a 50 gr bullet at the same velocity from a handgun is useless.

Fragmenting rifle rounds, and even some JHP's that fragment, behave quite differently than most purpose-built frangible handgun ammo. Dr. Fackler has written fairly extensively about the devastating effects of fragmenting rifle bullets, but those bullets fragment without sacrificing adequate penetration to do it. Likewise, the older 125gr semi-jacketed .357 Magnum hollowpoints also routinely fragment to a degree, but they do it in a more controlled fashion and still retain 11-13" of penetration. Most purpose-built frangible handgun ammo like Glasers or Magsafe, however, comes apart almost as soon as it impacts the target and disperses very quickly thereby making penetration shallow.

Again, I have seen the x-rays of the pre-frag shots and they are horrendous. I have no problem trusting them for self-defense or home defense. I would not carry pre-frags as a duty round due to the lack of intermediate barrier penetration.

Just because something looks gruesome, that does not mean that it's particularly effective. A nasty-looking, but shallow wound may turn your stomach more, but a deeper penetrating bullet that strikes a vital organ or severs a major blood vessel is going to cause more rapid and profuse blood loss and thereby cause loss of consciousness in the person shot much more quickly. This is not a new concept and it's been understood for thousands of years. Even with a bladed weapon, it is well known that a shallow slashing wound may be gruesome looking, extremely painful, and, if untreated, eventually fatal but a deeper stabbing wound will take someone out of the fight much sooner and is much less survivable.

Also the .410 with shot would be a good self defense round IF it were constructed like a MagSafe/Glaser. Keep the shot bonded together untill impact and bring the velocity up a bunch. Unfortunately the pressures that the .410 operates at will not permit that. I would think that a contact wound from a .410 woould be bad, but I wonder how much of it would be from the gases.

The problem with a .410 is that the majority of the ammunition made for it is loaded with birdshot, and a fairly small payload of it at that. While coarser buckshot is available, the size and pressure constraints of a .410 shotshell limit it to a ridiculously small number of pellets. At present, the best loading for a .410 is probably a rifled slug, but that holds no advantage over a conventional handgun bullet.

 

[aryfrosty]

Projectile comparisons

I agree with some of what you said. I would like to respectfully disagree with your assessment of the .410 bore. Since the inception of the Taurus Judges and now the S&W Governors there has been a new niche in that ammo. There are many "self-defense" loads with buckshot, bird and buckshot and higher velocity slugs. I agree that it is likely no advantage to have a .410 slug in the same handgun that you can fire a .45C 255gr bullet from...
Another advantage in the .410 bore is the psychological advantage given by the appearance of a short barreled, large bore handgun in the fight. Along with the larger flash signature and the noise of the round being touched off. I do NOT reccomend indiscriminate firing butwhen I counseled an officer post-gunfight at a bank robbery I asked him why he did not return fire: He told me that he was afraid and did "what anyone would do; I held my hands up in front of my face". My advice to him was that even the flash and report of a round being discharged in the area of the other side could often be enough to cause them to fail to fire accurately.

 

[Webleymkv]

I would like to respectfully disagree with your assessment of the .410 bore. Since the inception of the Taurus Judges and now the S&W Governors there has been a new niche in that ammo. There are many "self-defense" loads with buckshot, bird and buckshot and higher velocity slugs.

While the loadings you suggest may be promising, they're still too new to pass a verdict on one way or the other. Still, the most common loading available for the .410 Bore are birdshot, rifled slugs, and 3-5 pellet 000 Buck depending on whether it's a 2 1/2" or 3" shell. I do notice that one maker, Federal IIRC, has come out with a #4 Buck loading for .410 which could possibly be the best balance of pellet size and count. Without more information about the loading, however, I will not recommend it over a slug just yet.

Another advantage in the .410 bore is the psychological advantage given by the appearance of a short barreled, large bore handgun in the fight. Along with the larger flash signature and the noise of the round being touched off.

While that may be so, bigbore snubs and handguns with lots of flash and bang were available for decades before the Judge ever came about. The hole in the end of the Judge's barrel is no bigger or more intimidating that any of the other .44 Special, .45 ACP, .45 Long Colt, or .44 Magnum handguns that have been available for decades. Also, just about any Magnum handgun, particularly one with a short barrel, is a real attention-getter to anyone in the vacinity when it's touched off.

 

[Jeff OTMG]

Well, I have spent hours watching truTV the last couple of days and of all the 100 or so crime in progress videos from the around the world, I have yet to see one of the criminals use a Weaver stance or two hands to shoot the gun. Not even the New Zealand security guard that was holding up the store and he should be the most trained of all of them. Even with two hands the torso is still an open frontal shot, ideal for a hyper velocity pistol round, so it is just Weaver and Quell that we should be concerned with since they place the arm in the way of a direct torso shot and we are talking about intermediate barrier penetration. Isosceles stance removes the barrier.

Now you also have the problem of the bad guy wearing soft armor, stops a conventional round, but not RBCD and some Glaser and MagSafe loads. I wonder if it is more common for the bad guy to go Weaver on us or wear soft body armor? So far on truTV I have seen neither. Of course the soft armor can be hard to spot.

One of the best self defense stories told to me was by Robert Saunders before is death in the early 90's. He was the owner of American Derringer and swore by his Alaskan in .45-70. He shot at a guy in self defense (or so he says, you would have to know Bob) from about 2' away. The BG dropped like a ton of bricks, but he wasn't hit. The bullet passed just a couple of inches away from the BG's ear, but his entire head was engulfed in a fireball. Remember that in self defense we are looking to stop, not necessarily be lethal.

 

[Webleymkv]

Well, I have spent hours watching truTV the last couple of days and of all the 100 or so crime in progress videos from the around the world, I have yet to see one of the criminals use a Weaver stance or two hands to shoot the gun. Not even the New Zealand security guard that was holding up the store and he should be the most trained of all of them.

So, because you have never seen a criminal hold a handgun with two hands on TV, that means that it will never, ever happen to anyone? Sorry, but that's not the sort of "research" that I'm willing to bet my life on and I wouldn't suggest anyone else do so either.

Even with two hands the torso is still an open frontal shot, ideal for a hyper velocity pistol round, so it is just Weaver and Quell that we should be concerned with since they place the arm in the way of a direct torso shot and we are talking about intermediate barrier penetration. Isosceles stance removes the barrier.

You're still assuming that the BG will offer you a straight-on frontal shot rather than one at an oblique angle and that he will be a small-to medium sized individual. You cannot predict any of this and are rather preparing for one limited set of circumstances while completely ignoring everything else. While I realize that it is impossible to prepare for every possible situation, I still try to prepare for as many as I practically can.

Now you also have the problem of the bad guy wearing soft armor, stops a conventional round, but not RBCD and some Glaser and MagSafe loads. I wonder if it is more common for the bad guy to go Weaver on us or wear soft body armor? So far on truTV I have seen neither. Of course the soft armor can be hard to spot.

I'd very much like to see some independant testing (not manufacturer claims) of the armor-penetration capabilities of RCBD, Glaser, and Magsafe ammo. From the testing I've seen, such as that at http://www.brassfetcher.com, the only handgun cartridges capable of penetrating Level II and up armor outside of those using exotic metals that are illegal for U.S. civillian purchase are small-diameter, high velocity, non-expanding, non-fragmenting ones such as S&B 7.62x25 Tokarev 85gr FMJ.

One of the best self defense stories told to me was by Robert Saunders before is death in the early 90's. He was the owner of American Derringer and swore by his Alaskan in .45-70. He shot at a guy in self defense (or so he says, you would have to know Bob) from about 2' away. The BG dropped like a ton of bricks, but he wasn't hit. The bullet passed just a couple of inches away from the BG's ear, but his entire head was engulfed in a fireball.

And the point of this anecdote is what exactly? If the above story is authoritative, then it would appear that the best thing for all of us to carry is blanks loaded with lots of slow-buring powder. Sorry, I think I'll cast my lot with something a little more substantial than undocumented secondhand accounts posted anonymously on the internet.

Remember that in self defense we are looking to stop, not necessarily be lethal.

Unfortunately, the most effective ways to stop someone with a firearm are also likely to be lethal. Scaring someone into submission or causing so much pain/psychological stress that he gives up, while sometimes effective, simply are not as reliable as causing blood loss and damage to vital, life-sustaining organs. Until we can get a phaser with a stun setting from Mr. Spock, a potentially lethal wound is still the fastest and most reliable way to stop an attacker with a handgun.

 

[Jeff OTMG]

The shows on truTV are compilations of security camera videos, not staged, so they are actual criminals. No, they don't have ALL crimes on video, but since I haven't seen one where the criminal used two hands, let alone the Weaver we were discussing in 100+ cirmes, suppose you show me one where they did use the Weaver. Surely there is one. Show me.

There are limited circumstances that would permit a self defense shot to be taken at anything much less than frontal with a few degrees variance one side or the other. I guess that an exception would be Texas where you can shoot someone for 'criminal mischief in the nighttime' so you might shoot someone in the back while spray painting your fence, but otherwise it might be hard to explain a shot to the side or back why there was a perceived threat.

It is not a manufacturers claim. In fact RBCD specifically does NOT make that claim. I have seen RBCD penetrate a threat level III vest from a 9mm submachine gun. I would guess that it would penetrate from a handgun as well because the 9mm velocity rating on a Level III is 1400 fps, Level II is 1175 fps, and Level IIa is 1090 fps. http://hsarmor.com/htm/NIJ.htm

The reason that 5.7mm FN pistol penetrates a vest with a 28gr bullet is the 2000 fps velocity. Sure enought the 85gr 7.62x25 is 1520 fps and the 71gr 9mm THV is over 1500 fps as well. All exceed the velocity threshold for Level II and IIa and RBCD does that in many calibers.

I have seen the old version of RBCD .380 penetrate 12 layers of a 15 layer vest as well. When I did a demo at 'The Farm' outside SLC about 7 or 8 years ago the .40 S&W 180gr FMJ wouldn't punch a mail box. The RBCD standard .40 S&W blew holes through the steel and it still performed in the block of clay placed inside the box.

Unfortunately, the most effective ways to stop someone with a firearm are also likely to be lethal.
True, that is why any shooting with a firearm is considered lethal force.

Tell you what. I will put my money where my mouth is. You pick the caliber (.32 ACP, .380 ACP, .38 Spc, 9x19, .357 mag, .357 SIG, .40 S&W, .45 ACP, .41 mag, or .44 mag) and location. After spring thaw I will fly with a gun, my ammo, a piece of steel, Level II vest panels, some denim, and leather to simulate heavy clothing. You find the range, provide your own wonder ammo, and media, be it ballistic gel, gallon jugs of water, wet phone books, thawed out roasts, dead pigs, or clay. We can do some testing at self defense distance, say 5'-15'. I am willing to bet that those hollow points you are so fond of will clog up when they hit a leather jacket and fail to perform. I also don't think that they will punch the vest nor the sheet steel. I will be in Las Vegas for the SHOT Show in January and can easily get some range time there if that works for you. I can even try to get a trauma doctor from the local ER or teaching hospital to act as a judge. If my ammo works better you can reimburse my travel expenses and buy me a vest if mine gets holes punched in it, otherwise I eat it.