loading up my 9mm with glaser blue safety slugs

No, I've not been shot with a Glaser.

But, tell us this, since you're into question and answer mode...

Have YOU ever shot anyone with one?

Otherwise, how could you ever say this...

"I can't disagree with that, but the shock factor could. And it does play a roll here."

Shock factor DOES play a role?

What leads you to that conclusion? How many people have you shot with Glasers to allow you to observe this shock value?

What were the measured systemic responses that allowed you to conclude that the individual who was shot was actually in shock, and entered a shock state quickly enough to affect the outcome of the encounter?
 
These arguments do get kind of pointless at times, don't they?

I think that the thing to remember is that tissue damage and bleeding are the only things that can reliably kill or incapacitate. A glaser is going to shred a lot of meat, and if you put one into a lung or the brain, it'll do a pretty good job of denying someone a transplant. Overall, though, I don't think that one of them will do anything that a good standard load will do. Beyond that, I feel pretty certain that under certain circumstances, they will not destroy deeply enough.
I doubt that a glaser can actually penetrate the heart muscle after being driven through the 20 pound slabs of bacon that some men call a chest.
 
The problem with Glasers and most other frangible ammunition is, as has already been mentioned, lackluster penetration. Most of these types of bullets seem to only penetrate 6-8". While that might be enough to reach the vitals of a small-to-medium sized person with a straight-on frontal shot and no intermediate obstructions, a large person, one shot at an oblique angle, and/or the presence of intermediate obstructions such as the person's extremities is likely to require substantially more penetration in order to reliably reach the vitals.

If the bullet does not reach the vital organs, you're basically relying on pain and psychological factors to stop the attacker, neither of which are particularly reliable. A particularly determined individual or one under the influence of mind-altering substances may have very different perceptions of pain and reactions to being shot than a normal individual under normal circumstances. Unless pain and/or psychological factors overwhelm your attacker, a gruesome looking but superficial wound can not be counted upon to dissuade him from his immediate course of action.

Frangible ammunition also presents the problems of accuracy, functioning, and price. With a semi-automatic handgun, it is generally recommended that one fire at least 50-100 rounds, if not more, of your chosen self-defense ammunition in order to ensure reliable function. Similarly, frangible ammunition is typically much lighter than most common FMJ and JHP loadings and as such will usually shoot to a significantly lower point of impact that what a given handgun's sights are regulated for. Because of their very high cost, frangible loadings are prohibitively expensive for most people to both verify reliability and adjust their sights with.

In 9mm, a modern, premium JHP in the 115-147gr range is a much better choice for self-defense than frangible ammo. My personal 9mm loadings of choice are Speer 124gr Gold Dot +P or Winchester 127gr Ranger T-Series +P+ (the Winchester is a law-enforcement loading and can sometimes be difficult to find).
 
Glasers

To the poster who said Glasers are a "gimmick" round? They are not a gimmick. They do work. There are "Blues" and Greys". They greys are designed to use in the winter when a potential barrier to penetration exists. The blues are engineered to penetrate less for use in warm weather. They have a proven track record and are sold by Cor-Bon currently.
For those who argue that they don't "penetrate" I will add: They aren't designed to penetrate! They are designed...by engineers...to hit and quickly dump their energy into the mass of resistance to put the target down or off balance for a second impact round if it is needed. The primary way a solid round incapacitates is impact, not penetration. Bullets, if they hit a large bone, will knock a target down. Penetration has mostly a secondary effect by bleeding out or by detroying an internal organ. Penetration can be counted on to give a round lethality delayed long enough to respond with force. The effect of Glasers is extremely close to that of a major caliber impact on a large bone.
 
Glasers

I used one on duty some many years ago. I also read and viewed an article from South Africa which had some graphic photos of a rather large male who was shot in the upper arm with a Glaser blue. The damage was grossly extensive. The entire upper arm muscle had been damaged and distorted as a result of impact by a Glaser Safety Slug. They were engineered in 1975 by Mr. Jack Canon and Glaser Safety Slugs, Inc. was formed by Mr. Armin Glaser. They are now marketed by Cor-Bon in Sturgis, So.Dak.
The United States Federal Air Marshal Service tested and used the Glaser Safety Slug extensively in the 1970s and 80s on board commercial passenger aircraft to defend against hijackers. They would leave large wounds in human tissue but would not penetrate sheet rock, plexiglass or even thin metal panels.
We tried them at our agency and they would not penetrate auto glass or sheet metal. One fired at a late model plastic grille shell on a car exploded on the plastic without leaving a trace that we could find of the impact.
IMHO they are outstanding for use for home defense if you live in a crowded urban area or especially in an apartment where you might need to shoot to save your life but you are concerned about overpenetration.
They are made in pistol calibers from .25acp to .45 and in rifle calibers from .223 to .30-06.
As far as I have ever known of drawbacks the only one is price. They are expensive. When I decided to carry them I invested in 12 to try out on different barriers. I keep a .44spl revolver with 5 silvers in my bugout bag and a Para P10.45 with 10 blues next to my chair in the den. As with any round the person who carries them has to be gun smart and always know that there are some things they are not designed to do. They will always do what they are designed to do. When carrying outside home I will have either spare mags with hard ammo or speed loaders with the same. In that manner you can switch off if need be...but even if you get caught with Glasers up and are attacked 5 or 6 Glasers launched downrange will make the bad guy duck for cover so you can swith mags or dump and reload a wheelgun. They will cycle semi-autos. Regards to all; Al
I suspect anyone reading this can realize that I respect them and use them...
 
"For those who argue that they don't "penetrate" I will add: They aren't designed to penetrate!"

Yes, we know. And that's the problem with Glasers. Penetration deep enough to disrupt vital body structures is the ONLY thing that is going to reliably stop an encounter.

"They are designed...by engineers..."

I'm the son, grandson, and great grandson of engineers, and to put it bluntly, that's not a particularly convincing appeal to authority.

If you truly wanted to make an appeal to authority, you'd go with a medial doctor who has extensive experience in examining and treating projectile wounds, someone who has extensively tested and evaluated the ability of handgun rounds to stop an encounter. That someone would be Dr. Martin Fackler. He's not particular a fan of Glasers.

Companies like Winchester, Speer, Federal, and Hornady have pumped millions, if not hundreds of millions, of dollars into research, design, and development of handgun bullets that will both reliably expand and penetrate deeply into a target to a depth sufficient to disrupt crucial structures.

Much of this was as a result of the Miami shootout of 1986. Most of these companies have worked closely with wound ballisticians (including Dr. Fackler) following FBI protocols for reliable penetration and expansion.

The results, starting largely with Winchester Black Talon in the early 1990s, have been many dozens of shootings in which these rounds have performed almost exactly as designed.

I think it's very telling that NONE of the major manufacturers have bothered investing time or effort in bringing a product similar to the Glaser to market. All of those have been by niche manufacturers, and all have shown the same problems in the very limited number of shootings in which they've been involved.

I'm going say this as gently as I can, but the rest of your statement is simply bogus, and well neigh on to gibberish.



"The United States Federal Air Marshal Service tested and used the Glaser Safety Slug extensively in the 1970s and 80s on board commercial passenger aircraft to defend against hijackers. They would leave large wounds in human tissue but would not penetrate sheet rock, plexiglass or even thin metal panels."

Next time I'm flying, I'll remember to pack Glasers so I don't cause an explosive decompression of the cabin with everyone being sucked out the hole. ;)

But.... the Air Marshalls/TSA or whatever they're called post 9-11 no longer use these rounds, and haven't for years. They've gone on to rounds that are far more reliable in their ability to both expand reliably and penetrate deeply.

Last I heard, TSA was issuing .357 Sig semi-autos loaded with Speer Gold Dot hollow points, a FAR cry from the Glaser, but a bullet that has a pretty extensive, and impressive, performance record in both testing and actual shootings.

"The damage was grossly extensive. The entire upper arm muscle had been damaged and distorted as a result of impact by a Glaser Safety Slug."

Which says they'll cause nasty wounds. No one is denying that they will. But, that says nothing about their ability to reliably stop an armed encounter.
 
Not really

Mr. Irwin you need to get a lot more stars after your name to call anyone bogus. That is an illiterate form of respnose. You condemn your own family...not I. If you have so little respect for those of your family who were/are engineers then your credibilty is poor. In the first sentence of your "response" you again argue that poor old lament that they don't penetrate and therfore don't stop an opponent. I hope you have never really been in a gunfight and wasted your time waiting for a round to "penetrate" and stop a fight. Penetration will stop a gunfight. After it's too late to help you in many cases. Knockdown power, which Glasers do have will stop a fight whether or not your adversary dies. I am sure you never encountered the opportunity to testify as to why you had to shoot and adversary and you answered the question with the statement, "I shot to kill him/her!" If you had you'd probably be still in jail. Killing someone is not the goal of a person in a gunfight. The objective is to "stop the threat". Period. Again I will waste my voice on you because I have seen so many boxes of your ammunition marked "one shot-one dead man" on store shelves. But, wait. I have NOT seen any of your stuff. Tell me where they sell it because I'll give it a try.
I see from your masthead that you have been around this forum a long time and I respect that. But I give you no credence for a bad attitude. I got my first pistol, a 1911 when I was 12 years old and have carried professionaly since then. Oh, and learn to spell? The word you used "neigh" usually comes out the other end of a horse. I think you were trying to come up with "nigh" which means "near". Go find someone else to challenge, sir.
 
I don't condemn my father or grandfather at all.

They were excellent engineers, and were held to be so by their peers.

But they weren't so vain, or so foolish, as to hold themselves out to be the ne plus ultra simply because they were engineers.

That something is designed by an engineer means that it's supposed to perform to a certain set of specifications.

If the engineer's design meets those specifications, the design is considered to be initially successful.

The Glaser round was designed to fragment upon hitting the target. And it does that. So, successful round, right?

Not so simple.

A engineered design can be successful, but STILL be a failure at its ultimate goal.

And that's the problem with the Glaser design.

As noted, it's designed to fragment on impact (successful) in hopes that that will somehow increase its lethality (failure).


"wasted your time waiting for a round to "penetrate" and stop a fight."

What? Waste my time?

IIRC, a Speer Gold Dot .357 HP round traveling at roughly 1,200 feet per section will penetrate to a depth of 18 or so inches in human flesh in about .002 seconds.

Two thousandths of a second. My gun will still be recoiling in that time frame. Unless you're the Flash, the bullet's going to be done doing its thing before you're even remotely ready for the second shot.


"Killing someone is not the goal of a person in a gunfight. The objective is to "stop the threat"."

On this, you're absolutely correct. But again, Glasers have show in the rather limited number of shootings in which they've been used that they're really not up to that challenge, either.


"Knockdown power, which Glasers do have will stop a fight whether or not your adversary dies."

Oh for God's sakes. Knockdown power? Come on. Basic physics?

NO handgun possesses "knockdown" power.

NO small arm possess "knockdown" power.

Thompson and LaGarde examined the concept of knockdown power in 1904 in their testing of potential cartridges for the US military.

In suspending human cadavers from the wrists, shooting them, and measuring the oscillation caused by the supposed "knockdown power" of the cartridges used in testing, they were among the first to find out that small arms don't posses "knockdown power."


"Oh, and learn to spell? The word you used "neigh" usually comes out the other end of a horse."

Wow. You caught me in a typo. Congratulations. I'll send you a cookie.
 
No, I've not been shot with a Glaser.

But, tell us this, since you're into question and answer mode...

Have YOU ever shot anyone with one?

Otherwise, how could you ever say this...

"I can't disagree with that, but the shock factor could. And it does play a roll here."

Shock factor DOES play a role?

What leads you to that conclusion? How many people have you shot with Glasers to allow you to observe this shock value?

What were the measured systemic responses that allowed you to conclude that the individual who was shot was actually in shock, and entered a shock state quickly enough to affect the outcome of the encounter?


I dropped a guy at 25 yards with a Crosman 10 pump, with using only one pump. That's a BB gun. LOL

True story!
 
3x3x3 Rule; Glaser/Magsafe/DRT/Critical Defense/etc...

I disagree to a point with MI's remarks & a few other posts here.
A frangible round(Glaser, Magsafe, DRT, etc) CAN cause a lethal injury or damage under some defense/armed citizen conditions.
When you consider how or when you'd really use a small frame BUG or back up to protect yourself, you more than likely will be at a close range(under 3 feet) & be able to shoot directly at a violent attacker(a front torso or chest shot, NOT from the side or at extended ranges).
Now don't misunderstand my post, not ALL critical events occur like I stated but I'd feel well armed with a .44spl snub or a small frame .357magnum/.38spl with a factory made frangible under these conditions.
CF
ps; By 3x3x3 Rule, I mean an average shooting incident with an armed citizen or gun owner(NOT military or sworn LE officers) being 3 fired rounds, in approx 3 seconds at a total range of 3 feet.
 
aryfrosty said:
...The primary way a solid round incapacitates is impact, not penetration...
No it is not. No bullet fired from a handgun has sufficient energy. See In Defense of Self and Others...., Urey W. Patrick and John C. Hall, Carolina Academic Press, 2010, specifically Chapter 4 on Wound Ballistics, and at pg. 80 the authors note:
...Projectiles incapacitate by damaging or destroying the central nervous system or by causing significant blood loss. To the extent the wound components cause or increase the effects of these two mechanisms, the likelihood of incapacitation increases....
Also, see post 18.

aryfrosty said:
...Bullets, if they hit a large bone, will knock a target down...
No, but if a bullet breaks a significant skeletal support structure, the person shot will fall. However, a bullet must first penetrate sufficiently and hold together adequately to accomplish that.
 
"No, but if a bullet breaks a significant skeletal support structure, the person shot will fall."

MAYBE they will fall.

Then again, they may very well not fall.

Hitting a large bone is absolutely no guarantee that someone will be stopped.

Some years ago when I was with the newspaper one of the local police officers decided to try skydiving. He screwed up big time and tried to land WITH the wind, instead of against it, and broke his femur rather badly several inches above the knee.

Despite being in what he said was a lot of pain, he was still able to hobble back to the airport office so he could get help.

The break undoubtedly slowed him down, but it didn't put him down or keep him down.

Also, with modern high velocity ammunition, there's no guarantee that a solid bone strike will even break a bone and not simply core right through it.
 
"A frangible round(Glaser, Magsafe, DRT, etc) CAN cause a lethal injury or damage under some defense/armed citizen conditions."


Dont' get me wrong, Clyde. I am NOT claiming that Glasers are incapable of causing a fatal wound.

Hell, a BB gun is capable of causing a fatal wound -- the Golden Twinkee hit, as it's sometimes called.

But I'm certainly not going to depend on a BB gun's ability to effect a rapid stop, nor am I going to depend on a Glaser to be able to do that, either. Their track record at doing so is pretty poor.
 
"I dropped a guy at 25 yards with a Crosman 10 pump, with using only one pump. That's a BB gun. LOL"

When I was about 14 my best friend's little brother (12 or so at the time, IIRC) put a pellet from a Crossman pump gun about 2 inches into my left thigh.

It hurt like hell and felt like I had been kicked with a steel toed boot.

I'm sure he would have loved for the shock value to have kicked in BEFORE I beat the living hell out of him.

But it didn't.
 
NO handgun possesses "knockdown" power.

This is the only area I slightly disagree with you Mike but not for the reason most might think.

I have read FBI research report that stated that about 50% of those that are shot in an incident will lay down and stop fighting even if the wound did not incapacitate the person.

So although I do agree literal "knock down" power doesnt come out of a pistol, any firearm apparently could induce a knock down type of effect. Apparently our society is trained to think we should stop fighting and lay down if we are shot.
 
say golden sabres, do i go with 124gr or 147gr

I would recommend Gold Dots or Corbon DPX over Golden Sabers as my research seems to indicate they are a lot more consistent in fully expanding and retaining bullet weight than the Sabers.

I come from the school of more grains is generally better as at the same speed the heavier object will take more to stop it. (It should do more damage and potentially stop the BG faster)
 
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