Loading preferences for cap n' ball revolvers

It is my belief that most all revolvers from the factory (Pietta & Uberti) will
shoot just fine at 25 yds. By that I mean when loaded proper will shoot under
3 inch groups. That is good enough for the most serious competion. The problem is at 50 yds. I believe the twist (1-28 1-30) is too slow to stablize
the ball at 50 yds for accurate shooting. You just have to get the ball turning
around faster. The way to do this is to re-barrel it with a 1-16 or in the case 44's 1-20 twist barrel. They were doing this back in the 1930's or
before. Nothing new here. The ball will then be stablized at 50 yds shooting
at revolver velocitys. I'm just talking shooting competion here, not hunting.
Championships are won or lost at the 50 yd. distance. Mine would shoot fine
at 25 yds before the mods. 50 yds was mebby around 7-8 inches. Now it will
shoot say under 2 inches at 50 yds. Good enough for the most serious competion. What did it cost? 300.00 Was it worth it? Yes to us. For the
casual plinker No. Would we do it again YES. Have we won Championships
Yes. All depends what you want to do.
 
My Pietta 36

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OK, You might ask What does a winning 50 yd revolver target look like. Here
is one I shot at the Nationals at Friendship a couple years ago. Mind you this
is one hand un-supported in competion when the heat is on.

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Cap & Baller I like your sense of humor. Dark of the moon and guns serial numbered 666 also tightens groups. :D
 
50 yard target

Were you shooting in a special class for traditional revolvers, or shooting against tricked out modern black powder guns?
I know of some shooter who compete with black powder actions built on 1911 frames.

Nice winning target!
I have shot bullseye, so I am familiar with one handed 50 yard slow fire under stress! Is that a score of 92?

Love the pistol and the adjustable sights.
 
The match was a revolver match. You can use Rugers and any Black Powder
revolver that loads from the front. This is not a "As Issue" match. You can
shoot either Bullet or Ball. A lot of the guys shoot into the 90's at 50 yds.
A lot will shoot 98-100 at 25 yds. Most are Ruger Old Army's that have been
converted to .36 cal like mine was. Anybody who has a 1911 45 can have a
good competion pistol for Muzzleloading. Just take the barrel and slide off
and remove the clip. Put a muzzleloading barrel on by welding a lug near the
back and go up thru the magzine well with a screw. Put a plug in the back
of the barrel and tap it 1/4 X 28 and screw in a nipple. You can use the
hammer on the 1911. This way you can go back and forth between the 45 ACP and muzzleloading. Several folks I shoot with have this set up. Real slick
I would have it but my hand don't fit a 1911. I have a Ruger Mark 2 hand. I
just need more of a angle. All my pistols, flintlock included are bulit on the
Ruger Mark 2 angle. The 1858 Remmy is more of a Ruger angle than a 1911.
I could go on and on, but you all are probably getting tired of this. Time to
pop some caps.
 
Kwhi43, it's interesting about the comp shooting. Lapping the barrel at the threads to remove the choke that can be formed by the stress there is refining in a good place.
Using 36cal. at 50 yards is a curiosity to me. Why the 36cal. and not the 44cal. that carries better at a distance(air resistance and velosity maintained from the extra weight and all)? So the plugs for line bore can be used?
What do you do,or any of the comp shooters,the keep the barrels clean as they shoot for score?
When you mentioned plugging the chambers and line boring I wondered what the plug was held in by so the gas pressure can't work in behind it and shoot it loose? Pressed in fit? I've been pondering doing some chamber plugging myself with old guns that need barrel sleeves so a reduced cal.
I'd like to get a hold of Ron Long if he has a shop with the "lathe'. I need a lathe man that knows guns. I'm in Ohio. Turn sleeves to reline barrels.
Your target at 50 yards with the beautiful "blueprinted' cap&baller is a beautiful sight to behold. Nice target. A lot of people would feel good to shoot that good of a target with a rifle.:)
I don't line bore when I tune an Hombres gun. I use eye sight down the barrel before I ream and align the chambers as best as can be using the bolts head and the bolts frame window and sometimes shims on either side or both sides of the bolt. When the chambers are a little high or a little low that is more difficult to fix. That is when I may use weld spots on the arbor(Colt) to move the cylinder. Remington...I look for a replacement cylinder.;)
Doing some guns for Hombres that are in a serious competition and a life and death situation protecting themselves from marauding man eating bean cans and pop cans I go the "Kitchen Table Gunsmith" route and work cheap. Most people can't afford serious machine shop work. :(
I've found ,with the balls cap&ballers shoot, that elongationg and widening a forcing cone can spiff up slight alignment problems and get an average gun shooting better average and good to go for hittin cans and the like even out at some distance. The balls can be directed to enter the center of the bore by a forcing cone. Balls being so easily moved by anything they hit during their movement. You know for those that can't afford line bored cap&ballers. The chamber alignment being good to go can really help shooting with less flyers. It was mentioned above by someone that doing a forcing cone revitalization not to go over .452 in. in a 44/45cal barrel. I don't understand what is meant there since forcing cones are usually a little more diameter than the groove diameter in the barrels. That's the idea I thought. Make a sort of funnel to guide the slightly off alignment ball or bullet into the center of the bore.When a gun isn't easily fixed in the alignment department the forcing cone is one of the last resorts to get a gun shootin well enough I thunked. The forcing cones I do are always more diameter than the grooves in the barrel. Usually they are already more to begin with.
Anyway wish I could still see good enough to shoot good targets at 50 yards.
I've re-assessed my expectations about how accurate I can be anymore. I still compete against myself as I always have. Sometimes I win and sometimes I lose.:eek:
 
enyaw

I bet this will come as a shock, but in the single shot matches the caliber that
is used the most is .36 followed very close by .32 The 50 yd. record of 98
was shot with a .36. ALL my pistols are 32 except for the revolver. You don't
lose a thing at 50 yds shooting a .32 My wrist can't take the recoil of the 45
any more. My wife has a bad rotor cup and she can't shoot 45's any more.
We been shooting 32's for about 15 years now. We start them out at 1200 fps and take the same hold at 50 as 25. There is no drop.
To keep barrel clean on a revolver I and others wipe after every shot or wipe
real good after 5 shots. Fouling is not a problem. Oh, before I forget, there's
a couple shooters at Friendship who use .22 cal. Yes 22. They are Master
Class shooters. The plugs are welded in my cylinder. Will show a picture.
 
Here is my 36 cal cylinder. It started out as a 44. If you look real close, you
can see a ring around the chambers. That's the sleeve. The chambers are .357 dia and I use a .360 ball. The barrel is a modern 9mm pistol barrel.

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Man, this thread is realy turning out some great info! KWHI43- that is a beautiful pistol.

Enyaw - I used a small LED light to peek down my barrel and can see a very thin sliver of cylinder reflecting back at me on one side. It does not appear to me to be significant enough to merit plugging, line boring etc. Any suggestions on tuning a small adjustment like that? I plan to ream the forcing cone. Does that mitigate a slight misallignment between chamber and barrel?


Headed to the range tomorrow with my .450 200 gr. Lee conicals. Results to follow.
 
Off-hand, Black Powder, 50 yards
[I seem to always need a "strong language" warning.] :eek:

I am sure the about 4" group would have been bigger if I had loaded/cleaned it properly. Good thing I'm a newbie! :p

I used 30gr Goex FFFg, Hornady .451 balls, and Remington No. 10 caps and Our Family all vegetable shortening.
 
A 4" group at 50 yards, from rest, with any pistol borderlines on exceptional.
I get 1.75" at 100 yards off a rest using my 8" barrel 686 S&W 357, iron sights.
1point75moa357.jpg

The first shots were to get me on target, (had it set at 150 yards for hunting.)

Check out 6 Shots, 357 Mag, 300 Yards. The last 5 shots make about a 6 inch group.

I think that is pretty good but I am sure others can do just as well, they need only try... (I'm convinced the Audette Ladder Test did most of the work.)
 
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Kwhi43, that looks liike a fine job with the chamber sleeves. It looks like a press fit since I can't tell where any weld is. You sure it's weld and not solder to hold the sleeves in? I'd thunk if the press fit was proper it would be good to go with the "pressed in" only as long as the bottom of the chamber and the end of the sleeve form a perfect fit.
I can see and understand the smaller caliber for shooting target especially if old injuries take their toll or the fatique of the 44 can take hold. I've got enough "stoved up" places to be a canidate for a bionic replacement body.
I know the 32 and 36 cal. rifles(muzzleloaders) can really zing the balls out there a good ways so the pistols could too I guess.
I would like to get the number of the gunsmith you mentioned so I can try to get some lathe work done. I'd like to plug the chambers and reduce the cal. in a coupla old Belgian Colts 1860 Army cap&ballers and I need someone to turn the chamber liners and barrel liner for me as I haven't access to a lathe.
One thing I wonder about in the line boring department....the line bore makes a pilot hole in the new chamber plugs. Then since a caliber size chamber can't be bored thru a barrel the set up has to be taken down and re-set back up to ream/drill the chambers the right size diameter. The re-set up can throw things off if the machinist can't set back up and "center" perfectly on an existing hole. I asked machinists about setting up on an existing hole to ream perfectly and none knew how to do it. They said they can make holes in the right place but none could give a good proceedure for seting up on an existing hole like a pilot hole. I figure that's the achilis heal to line bore...the re-set up to ream to size. When I stated to the machinists on the machine forums how I set up on an existing hole to ream with my milling machine they just said that's the way to keep doing it. I've had some machinists tell me they "indicate" the hole in to be reamed. That's use an indicator to find the exact center. That would involve finding the exact widdest point with the indicator then moving so many .001's to the center in two axis sort of like the Osborn Method to find the exact center of a "round piece". Finding the exact center of a small hole with an indicator would be pretty difficult I bet. That's why I wonder if the pilot hole is drilled with the ,"line bore", and then the reaming throws the tolerance off. The fit of the pilots and the drill in the center of the pilots in the line bore can add some "within tolerance" and miss the perfect center some too. I used to talk to a guy named "----- Accuracy" that accurized Remingtons for competition.(passed on-car wreck) He used a tooled barrel fixture that screwed into the barrels place in the frame to line bore right to the exact diameter if I remember corrcectly. That's a good way if the fixture is an exact fit to the chambers. I'll tell ya.....it seems anyway I look at it there's a "tolerance" or "range" to work within that's not perfect when it comes to line bore. I had Starett make me a tool out of a modified edge finder that has a cone that goes up to .500 in. so I can get the cone in the chamber and line up the edge finder by sight and then feel to know I'm on the center of an existing hole without the indicating. The achilis heel for that is the fact the cap&baller chambers aren't always perfectly round. :eek: (they are usually tapered too ....smaller the deeper in you go so that's why the "keep the ball to the top of the chambers" makes sense) The dang chambers are tapered in the mass production drilling. Don't ask me why just the set up I guess.
I have an indicator that reads to .0001's but finding the widdest point inside a small hole with it ain't an exact science. I'd probably line bore and then ream the holes to tolerance with a finely fitted piloted reamer. A fine fit piloted reamer that's as snug as it can be and still turn is the surest way to get to the exact center of an existing hole. Anyway this is droning on and on.:o Surfice to say it's a good idea to have good alignment of the chambers to the grooves of the barrel. Notice I didn't say "bore" of the barrel.
Anyway Kwhi43 your gun is a nice one and shoots even nicer. If yer shootin about 900ft/sec then yer balls are spinning over 600 times a second right? The standard twist would spin the balls about 300+ times a second. I'da thunked that standard twist (1-30or 1-32)would be fast enough spin on a ball. I'd wonder if the 1-16 would be too fast for a heavy load that might strip the ball thru the rifling. Did your gun get the 6-7 inch group(as a 44) before it was turned into a 36 cal.? I'd wonder since the grooves in the barrel become lands ,that sorta stick up like fins, on the lead balls if the extra spin couldn't throw the balls off the point of aim/point of impact by the fan effect of the fins in the wind or air. You know,sorta like a cut or slice with a golf ball. I guess not if yer gun shoots that well. Who knows. It may shoot even better if it could have a good barrel in 1-32 twist. If it could have a good barrel in 1-32........
I'd just wonder if the gunsmith told you the extra spin was good since the only easily obtained barrel liners would be the 38 cal. liners for/in the .357's and 38spl ect. ect. to get a smaller diameter ball used in the gun. You know...modern twist liners for the modern cartridges. I bet that a good barrel with the 1-32 twist could be good too. The Italian barrels aren't the best when it comes to ultra competition. They may be good or they may be average or they may be really bad. The new barrel liner may be more of an asset because it's got a consistant bore/land dimensions rather than just a faster twist. Barrels with no tight or loose spots and consistant rifling depth ect.ect.are the biggest asset I'd say.
I get some mediocre groups with some barrels with inconsistant rifling depths and loose spots in the wrong places(like at the muzzle) ect.ect. If I can lap the barrel into "good" it'll shoot a lot better. If the barrel is just good from the beginning it'll shoot good. I've shot 2 inch groups off hand at 40-50 paces(some luck involved I'm sure) from brass frame 36's with good barrels and tight tuned fit ect.ect. That's with a 1-30, 1-32 twist to the riflings. Other cap&ballers I've shot seem to get really good groups with the 1-32 twist if the barrels are "right". That's why I'd ponder the 1-16 twist in your gun as ,maybe, not really needed. I'd say it's the liner and the consistant good riflings and bore dimensions compared to Italian cap&baller barrels. I'd say that the faster twist in the target guns may be needed or may not be. It seems like if the barrels are good to go and the guns are aligned good they shoot good with the 1-32 twist rifling. Of course I don't shoot targets at 50 yards much. Bean cans maybe. Rocks and old fence posts and the like maybe. I hate shootin paper so since tha paper don't lie I may be wrong. I doubt it though. There are too many ground hogs from the old farm that are in ground hog heaven right now from cap&ballers with 1-32 twist or 1-48(Walker) like they come with. It's all relative though. Everything is relative. We all percieve the world a little different I'd guess.I guess that since I go out and always fire a minimum of 200+ balls from a cap&baller for a session that I wouldn't be bothered by a 44-45 in competition much. I'm probably wrong though since I do ache a lot the next day. I'd wonder.....if your tricked out, adjustable sighted Remington cap&baller is really any more accurate than,say, one of the better barreled Belgian Colts 1860 Army or Uberti or Pietta Army or Navy cap&ballers I've got? The ones "tricked out" by a good tune up that includes anything that needs done to accurize them. They seem pretty danged accurate but.....counting the loose nut behind the wheel that's a half blind stoved up old man now(me).....it may be just a demensia illusion. :eek::D;) Oh well! It seems real to me.:p

Cap&baller, you can tune a slight misalignment using a new bolt that is slightly larger than the cylinder notches and file fit the bolts head to the cylinder notches on the side you want the cylinder to move towards.
If the bolt is loose in the frames window you can shim it to move it a little to move the cylinder a little in the right direction.
I do that stuff all the time. A cap&baller will show a marked improvement once it's aligned if it was out of alignment much at all.
Yes you can ream the forcing cone to negate a little misalignment but that's for the balls and not the conical bullet. Bullets can't take much misalignment and be directed by a reamed forcing cone like the balls can. It's better to move the cylinder with the bolt one way or the other...new bolt or shimmed bolt depending on what's got the gun out of alignment in the first place.
What type revolver do you have Cap&baller? Colt type? Remington type?
 
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#11 cap slightly pinched with a small ring of plastic tubing around the cap to keep it from exploding.

I have been shooting BP hand guns for over 40 years more for fun than anything else but cap-n'-baller, could you explain the statement above.
Is this to keep the fired cap from falling into the action or something else?
5 inch groups at 50 yards with a BP gun,,, the only thing impossible about that is if I were behind the gun.:D
 
Enyaw: thank you for the info on adjusting the bolt. Two questions. Where would I find a bolt slightly larger than the one I have? And how do you shim the bolt without interfering with the movement of the bolt?

Ozzieman: I got the idea of the plastic tubing (like used on aquarium air pumps) from another Firing Line contributor who has been shooting C&B pistols longer than I've been alive. By cutting the tubing the same length as a #11 cap the tubing fits snuggly over the cap reinforcing the sides of the cap and keeping the cap from fragmenting and hanging up in the action or your fingers or eyeballs.

Initial results with Lee conicals were...unsatisfactory. Barely kept it on the paper at 50 yds. Interested to see what results some tuning can produce.
 
Howdy Cap&Baller. On the side where a shim (shim stock of brass or copper or even aluminum pie pan)would fit between the bolt head and the frame a flat shim stock is used and simply cut with scissors and rubbed flat and a hole punched in to fit the bolt screw thru. It stays between the bolt and the frame due to the trigger guard being there.
Bolts move some since the screw holes in them are usually a little too big. Naturally the bolt window in the frame has to allow movement and if it's too tight on the bolt head it needs filed carefully so when the shim moves the bolt over the bolt rides against that side of the window(not so tight as to bind the bolt against anything. The shim just has to be the right thickness.
On the other side of the bolt in front of the trigger and filling in that wide space a part or piece needs to be made. It fits the contour of the frames milled out area on one side and has a groove milled or filed in the side close to the bolt screw so that end straddles the bolts screw with more going under the screw than above. That keeps the new part in place but....if it moves up and down some it's still where it needs be and works to keep the bolt inplace.
Work one side or the other of the bolt moving it and checking the alignment by eye ballin down the barrel with a small flash light watching the "silver moon of misalignment" growing smaller till it's gone and the shim or shims(sometimes there would be a shim stock shim on the side where the bolt is next to the frame and the new made part/piece metal shaped to fit there on the other side where the open space is in front of the bolt screw and to the side of the bolt (sorta in front of the trigger). The flat face of the cylinder around the chambers reflects light back at a "gunsmith" (kitchen table extrourdinaire type) using a small flash light. There's a trick to it and the more you look in there the easier it is to see right at the place where the rifling grooves and the cylinder face meet. You want to learn to see the small little line of silver that would be in the beginning of each rifling groove because the chambers are slightly undersized. When each looks equal in each groove the alignment is pretty "on".
Going a little further yet there's the "black" reflected back that is the crown or bevel on the opening of each chamber. That's harder to see but it's there.It's just not silver reflecting back but it's black reflected back looking down the barrel. Get that "gone" too by turning the cylinder with the bolt to hold it where no silver or black shows looking down the barrel. When the chambers are reamed to be "groove diameter" size then when the silver and the black around the front edge of the chambers is gone it's aligned. When the chambers are smaller than groove diameter only the silver shows a thin line in each groove of the barrel and,if you look real close if the chambers are beveled you'll see black inside the sliver. If they are all equal looking the chambers are lined up good. I like when the chambers show only the sliver and not the black from the chamber bevels when the chambers aren't beveled.
Basically if you see the "silver moon of misalignment" you move the bolt till the silver is gone and ,if you want it better yet you'll see only the black from the bevels and you make those equal in size. Hopefully the bevels aren't those huge gaping "overly large bevels".
I've always noticed a marked difference to the good with accuracy after a cap&baller revolver is aligned better in the chamber bore area.
I hope that explains it clear enough.
What does this have to do with loads preferred in a cap&baller? I quess it is saying that the first step to loading a cap&baller rev is to make sure the chambers align to the bore so you can see when you have a good load and not a good load trying to over come misalignment. How can a Pard know a load is good when the gun isn't aligned good?
Sometimes when the alignment is really off all the tricks of the trade need be used. The shim between the bolt and frame, the part/piece on the open side between the bolt and the frame and in front of the bolt screw,a new bolt filed or stoned to be fitted only on one side so it moves the bolt over when the bolt head is fit to the cylinder notches. The bolts that are a little large for the cylinder notches can come from anywhere. Pietta makes some replacements like that and some Uberti's are like that and....Dixie Gun Works,bless their souls, usually sells overzied bolts that can be fit to a wide range of guns. You just have to look around and order some bolts and/or ask about whether or not they are sized to fit right in the cylinder notches or a little big and need fit to the notches. You may get an answer or NOT since parts people seem to think that's getting a little "picky".
I've aligned some guns that are so far "out" that I've had to get a spot of weld on the one side of the bolt and mill or file a shallow flat groove in the frame to accomodate the lopsided bolt head or.....if the bolt has weld put on the other side a lot of the bolt window in the frame needs filed/stones away till it can accomodate that bolt lopsided on the other side.That leaves a big space open on the other side of the bolt window and either a shjim or weld build up to weld and fit that side of the window over further....like adding metal to file and shape and move the window over. Take off one side and add to the other.
Sometimes when the alignment is at the top or the bottom looking down the barrel a new cylinder base pin(arbor) needs to be fit so the cylinder doesn't just lay on the base pin with a loose hole that lets the cylinder drop or.....if the cylinder needs to drop(silver shows at the bottom looking in the barrel).....the cylinder needs it's center hole opened up so it can drop or an over sized(just a little) base pin needs fit and the frame holes(Remington) need reamed to be a little lower when the new bigger base pin id fit. You have to look to see if a larger base pin can be fit with the frames holes moved in a Remington.
The Colts are simpler to move a cylinder up or down. A coupla spots of weld on the arbor can raise or lower a cylinder. The center hole of the cylinder may need reamed open a little more or it may already be loose enough.
You can move barrels on Colts with the qeld bumps filed or stoned smooth and the same and fit to the arbor hole in the barrel,especially if it's already loose to begin with(the hole in the barrel may not need opened up in the case of a "Loose caboose" barrel arbor hole. Sometimes a coupla bumps on the arbor can tighten the barrel on the arbor just right....as long as the cylinder can still go on. If the cylinder hole is opened up a little that lets the cylinder drop and that may make the gun out of alignment there.
I always say..."don't go anywhere till you know where you're going". ;)
Anyway...some of these tips can help get a gun tuned to be ready to find the best load for the chambers so I guess checking your gun for fit is the first step to finding a preferred load.:eek: All things being relative.....it's up to the owner of the gun what he/she wants. The forcing cone in a cap&baller revolvers barrel can be opened and elongated and made to alieviate some of the stress of an out of alignment chambers as long as thge misalignment isn't way too much....since it's the "ball" that's used in the cap&ballers. The conicals need a perfect alignment,or as close as possible, to shoot their best.:( The cap&ballers,especially the Remingtons, can fling those conicals real well when......the conical is made to fit the dang barrel and isn't made undersized by the undersized chambers. Only a hollow based conical has a chance to be accurate when it's under sized compared to the barrels grooves.
The darn conicals or conical moulds can't always be used if they are undersized to begin with. Just like a Pard wouldn't shoot an under sized conical from his cartridge gun he shouldn't do that with his cap&baller. If the barrels grooves aren't abnormally large diameter and close to nominal 45cal size like .451-2-3-4 in. a Lee oversized .456 ma6y be made to shoot well......if the chambers are sized to be at groove diameter or .001-.002 over that. Right at is plenty good though. Barrels grooves diameter at .451? Then the chambers should be .451 in. too. Never more than .002 in. oversized. Some say the lead bullets are better sized for accuracy when they are .001 or .002 in. over the groove diameter in the barrel. Hope this helps Cap&Baller.
I forgot to add....those little rubber "Cap Guards" are sold at places that sell muzzleloading loading supplies. I have a coupla packs some good friend gave me to try. I tried them years ago. They do what the caps of yesteryear most likely did. Not flay out all over the place and hang the guns up and all that. Those "Cap Guards" work. The ones sold commercially are red. Red of all things.:barf: Black would be nicer.:D
 
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