Loading preferences for cap n' ball revolvers

Mykeal - Point taken. I have never calibrated my powder measure. It is possible that it is off. I was wrong to say that the chambers "could easily hold more than 60grs" without having measured it out exactly. I based this on the fact that after loading 35 grains of powder and a lubed wad I was still able to put close to 30 grs. of cornmeal in there. The cornmeal is much finer than my powder so I did not take that into account (the coarser powder does not settle nearly as much as the cornmeal when tapped). That said, I stand by the 4" groups. This is not intended as a boast. I intended this to be a starting point from which I could improve with the help of more experinced C&B shooters. I recognize that my pistol is different than most of the ones others are shooting that are contributing here. I believe that a pistol with a 12" barrel and adjustable sights should be more accurate than an exact period replica. Shouldn't a 50%-70% ( assuming a period replica having a
7-8" barrel) increase in sight radius and increased velocity (due to more time in the tube with accelerating gasses rather than larger charge) result in more accurate shooting?
 
gus3836

I do my own tweaking!

If you don't have a tweak tool, Fingers can sell you one. Unless you shoot a 44. He has only tools for 36 cals.
 
NOZ said:
If you don't have a tweak tool, Fingers can sell you one. Unless you shoot a 44. He has only tools for 36 cals.

I'm currently out of stock right now Noz. My supplier is on vacation and left no contact info for where he went. He does this to me all the time. I may have to find a different supplier that will abide by the buy southern clause in the contract.

I've been working on the prototype for a .44 tweaking tool and would like you to do a proof of principle field test on it for me to see if it would be viable if put into production.
 
Had my pistol at the gunsmith's place the other day. He looked my pistol over and recomended reaming the forcing cone (it is visibly out of alignment with the barrel). He also suggested crowning the barrel. Both of which are fairly simply done as long as proper time, tools, and preperation are used. Could result in greater consisitency. Any one had experience with these procedures and there results? I would prefer to hear from folks with practical experience regarding this one.
 
Well at the risk of being told to not post here, this is something I have experience with. If the forcing cone is visibly misaligned you could benifit from having it recut to align it. It will require your gunsmith to make a bushing for the cutter rod that closely fits your barrel as the ones sold with the kit are not designed for these barrels. Crowning is only useful if the end of your barrel is out of square with the bore and with the accuracy you report that is unlikely. That likely falls into the "if it aint broke don't fix it " catagory.
 
Thank you for that usefull information Denster. I apologize for 'name-calling' earlier and your productive comments are welcome. I was looking at the bushings sold at Midway and Brownell's for .44s and.45 and was concerned about a good fit given the unique size of most BP pistol barrels. What pistols have you done this with and what were your results?
 
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I have Brownell's set I bought years ago. I don't know that they sell the complete set anymore. Midway has the best price and they are all made by the same manufacturor. When I mentioned bushing size I had my mind on the 36 cal as that is what I am working on this morning and that requires you make a bushing. You have a 44 which is actually a 45 so the 45 bushing will be the one you want. If you are doing it yourself get the 11 degree cutter and the 11 degree polishing lap. This is generally considered optimal for lead bullets and since Pietta and Ubertti use a somewhat more abrupt angle it works well for realigning. Just be careful not to over do it as you do not want the max diameter to be more than .452 and it's a good idea to mark your cutter at this diameter. If the gunsmith is doing it for you he should know this allready.
Most of the time I don't recut the forcing cone unless it is misaligned or they forgot it entirely. You don't see that anymore on newer guns but early Pietta's and ASM it wasn't unusual. In those cases a marked increase in accuracy resulted.
 
:confused:I'd say one of the most important things you load besides the powder and ball is the "lubed wad". The fouling can affect accuracy within a "six shot string" and the lubed wad helps affect the accuract in a positive way. I figure without the lubed wad on the powder you're not going to get the best from the gun. The lube on the wad needs to be stiff so it doesn't mix with the powder on ball compression and firing. Equal amounts of bees wax and paraffine wax and a lube(crisco,lard,olive oil) works fer me.
I'd say getting the ball to the top of the chamber is a good idea but I dislike the corn meal and the extra hassel measuring it. The "ball at the top of the chamber" is a good idea because the chambers of the italian and other cap&ballers are tapered and drilled irregular. I see it when I ream and find "black" left wherte the reamer didn't touch the side walls of the chamber. The chambers look fine because they are black but run a reamer in there piloted by a mill machine and you see the irregularities. Anyway since the chambers are tapered and actually undersize for the barrels grooves it's a good idea to get the ball to the top of the chamber. it's a better idea ,I thunk, to ream the chambers to at least equal with the barrels groove diameter. I like .001's over the groove diameter for my chambers shooting balls.
I've always found that a good powder is really important in a load chain. That's ovvious.::D I am under the understanding that nothing beats "The Holy Black" if the shooter uses it right. That means dealing with the fouling(lube pills on the powder)and loading correctly....no over compressed loads,the right granulation ect.ect.
I'd recommend trying some of the real powder if you can get it.
Well.....if the gun shoots 4 inch groups at fifty yards with it's undersized chambers(all the Italian guns but a few have under sized chambers) with the load mentioned in the beginning of this thread I'd say that's not bad and may be able to be improved too. That would be nice.
I use the 45gr. FFFg Holy Black in my old Walker with chambers reamed to a good size for the barrel(barrel is .464 groove diameter) and the lube pills on the powder(no separater between the powder and the pill so the powder activates the pill to spread luby stuff ahead of the powders fouling/heat/ect.ect.) and seat the ball with firm but not overly compressed pressure and try to get them all the same compression with the plunger.
I've shot ground hogs on the old farm at 80,20,40,50,30,200,300 300+ yards with that load. The gun shoots as accurate as any cartridge revolver I have. Maybe better. I attribute that accuracy to the "lube pills on the powder and the reamed chambers and a good barrel on the gun and.....the use of the Holy Black Powder.
I can go lubes wads on the powder but not a card on the powder first and I can't go corn meal. I think it compresses when the powder gas hits it like a cushion and can be a little irregular from shot to shot as any cushion in the load chain can be. Cushions are for shotguns. Cornmeal is like a cushion.
I might add...that if the corn meal was removed from the load chain and the accuracy got worse then...I'd put it back in the chamber.;)
I's say...since the Pietta cap&ballers shoot the cartridge conversions and do it well with 45 conical bullets it's possible to get a good load from a cap&baller cylinder too...if the right amount of powder can be gotten in the chamber with the conical bullet. I'd thunk that maybe the use of FFFFg powder or 777 powder may be the way to get a good coniocal l0ad from a cap&baller. I don't delve into it too much since I figure "balls" are good enough for a cap&baller. My Pietta Remingtons sure seem to like the 45 cal. Long Colt cartridge and the conical bullets in the 1-32 rifling twist. Some say it's 1-30 twist but....:confused:
I have to add....that I thunk 50 yards is too far for a max range shooting wild hogs with a cap&baller(even with a 12 inch barrel) and a lead ball(conical would be better I'd say). I'd say half that range would be better and a Walker revolver would be even better with a max charge of powder......unless you rely on a pack of "pit bull terriers" to help hold down the wounded hog so you can get up on it and "coup de grais". Forgive my lack of proficciency with the French language....the English one too.:D
I can see why the pics of the Walkers targets have a smaller group with the "hollow based" conicals.....the hollow base being the improvement. Too bad the Lee conicals an't be shot from a chamber at least equal in diameter to the groove diameter of the Walker Barrel. I'd thunk the right size chambers and the "heel of the bullet" sized so the heel(and chambers) is at or .001-.002 over the barrels groove diameter would be good to go in a Walker. That would mean a custom mould though to cast the heeled bullet. The heel on the bullet and the oversize front of it sized to .000,.001,.002 by the chambers to be within the barrels groove diameter or a coupla .001's over it.
I guess I'm trying to say......the chambers size the conical and the heel and front of the bullet are sized to be the same which...eliminates the "heel" upon loading the conical in the chamber. The heel has a negative affect on accuracy...even if it is small at times it's(the negative affect on accuracy) still there if the heel is thee as the bullet leaves the barrel.
 
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The cap and ball revolvers were never intended to be long range sniper weapons. They were intended to be used at "handshake" distances. Current theory say that the reason for the high bullet strike on the original Colts was to be able to hold "dead on" on a charging cavalryman and hit him from saber range out to a max of 75 yards. Sam Colts loading instructions were to "load powder, ram ball, cap and fire". No lube pills, lube wads or over ball grease were recommended.
If you are trying for extreme accuracy then over sized chambers, re-cut forcing cones etc. etc. are well advised.
If you want to use them as Sam Colt intended, then powder, ball and shoot works well. It will give you 1 minute of charging cavalryman out to 75 yards easily and do lots better than that with deliberate fire.
Used as a hunting gun, they will do quite well out to 50 yards or so using either ball or bullet. Any more than that is pushing the inherent accuracy and killing power of the gun. Hogs? I'd leave the cap and ball at home and take the 44 mag instead.
 
Hi Gang,

I just picked up my 12" Bison and look forward to shooting very soon. All the info that was posted on this thread answered a lot of my questions about shooting it. Except for one - My local gunshop has no 44 wads in stock, from what has been posted, I gather that I could sub a certain layering of cornmeal????

I'm ordering wads but just in case I just have to go shooting.....

Larry
 
need load advice for .44 1851 brass navy

It's been quite a while since I shot any BP revolvers. Had a 1858 remington that I shot a lot many years ago.
Still have all the pyrodex, wads, balls from then.
Just acquired a nice Pietta 1851 brass framed navy .44 revolver.

Here's what I remember.
about 28 gr. of pyrodex P (fffg equivalent)
wonder wad
.451 ball
seat with ram full stroke.
Cap with #11 caps
Fire at will

Is that correct?
Do I need to ram with a full stroke, Do I need filler, do I need grease over ball if I use the wonder wad over the powder.

Please feel free to refresh my memory.
Tried a#10 cap and it didn't go on the nipple.
Fired a #11 cap, and hammer strike is powerful and crisp.
Trigger pull has clean break after slight creep.
Pistol is like new, hardly fired.
Purchased for 100.00 with holster, so didn't come out too bad on deal.

I guess I am confused about how deep to seat ball, and whether I need to use filler, and if I have forgotten anything else. Also have .454 balls from my .45 caliber flintlock. Can these balls also be used in the .44?

Yes, I am an experience handgun shooter with safety knowledge.
Just been a while since I shot black powder.
 
larryk said:
My local gunshop has no 44 wads in stock, from what has been posted, I gather that I could sub a certain layering of cornmeal????

HighValleyRanch said:
Is that correct?
Do I need to ram with a full stroke, Do I need filler, do I need grease over ball if I use the wonder wad over the powder....

...I guess I am confused about how deep to seat ball, and whether I need to use filler, and if I have forgotten anything else. Also have .454 balls from my .45 caliber flintlock. Can these balls also be used in the .44?

Wads and filler serve several purposes, to ensure that there's no air gap over the powder when loading with a small powder charge, to raise the ball in the chamber closer to the forcing cone which may slightly enhance accuracy, to help prevent chainfires from the front of the chamber and to help keep the barrel clean.

Neither wads or filler are absolutely necessary. Lubrication is used to both prevent chainfires and to keep the fouling soft, so that may be considered to be a chainfire prevention substitute but even that is optional.
Whether compressed filler helps to prevent chainfires or not hasn't been proven but it may indeed help to do that.

It doesn't really matter how deep the ball is seated as long as it is on top of the powder or in contact with the wad or filler which is seated on top of the powder.
The ramming stroke need not be full as long as the ball ends up being seated properly. Proper leverage and support for the gun during ramming will probably result in a full stroke, but a full stroke isn't really critical once the ball is past the chamber mouth.

Depending on the size of the chambers, a .454 ball may be more difficult to load but is considered to be completely acceptable and recommended for some guns.

If using wonder wads, grease isn't necessary to prevent chainfires. But using a little grease on top of one or two balls may help to keep the gun lubricated during each cylinder full. Otherwise it would be duplicative to use both wads and grease in every chamber.
There's several options on how to load and what methods to use.
Some folks safely load with only powder and ball since the risk of chainfire is usually small if the balls fit and seat well.
And there's always the risk of chainfire from the nipple end if using loose caps or if a cap falls off during shooting.

The brass frame guns are usually loaded with slightly less powder than the steel frame guns to promote their longevity. Usually 25 grains or less powder. No one knows how long any brass frame will last if too many heavy loads are shot through one. The cylinder pin hole of the brass frame Remington is somewhat at risk of loosening up and enlarging over time.
 
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I read an article once that was about a hunter that wanted to use a Walker to kill wild hog. The short story is the conical from the Walker at 25 yards went thru both shoulders but didn't exit the hide on the far side. That gives an idea about the power of the revolvers.
Anyway Sam Colt did make the Colts for close range combat and that is what the Army considered the revolvers. Close range was intended to be by the ordanance dept of the Army to be- 17-28 feet if I recall correctly what the ordanance dept. figured and is documented somewhere.
All I know is I've gunsmithed many cap&ballers and the main ingredient seems to be a good barrel and all the cap&ballers don't come with that. Slugging and measuring can give a good idea about that. Sometimes lapping out tight spots ect.ect. get a barrel on solid ground.
The muzzle end and the breech end of the barrels have to be concentric with the bore for the gun to give it's best and a piloted reamer like Brownells sells is good for that. Shimming the pilots to have "no play or space" to move while reaming is imperative.
Reaming chambers to be at least equal to the groove diameters of the barrel seems to be imperative to best accuracy in my opinion. The "target models" like the Hege Remington,Pedersoli Remington and Rodgers and Spencer and the Pietta "Shooters Model" Remington will bear that out as they have a close tolerance between chambers and barrel groove diameters. The undersized chambers were to accomodate subsequent shots when using blackpowder(fouling). Val Forget (Navy Arms)told me that when I asked him why the Italians made the guns with undersized chambers.
Shooting a revolver using blackpowder and even the subs the fouling can ruin the accuracy. Controlling the fouling is imperative I think to getting the best from a cap&baller. The best way to do that without cleaning after every shot is to use Lubed wool wads or lube pills (grease cookies) right on the powder under the balls. Elmer Kieth stated he used wool wads made from old hats and saturated with lube made of bees wax and lard(don't quote me on his lube recipie) and seated them right on the powder. His old Navy Colt would shoot thru the same hole all day long he stated. The lube for a wool wad or lube pill laid right on the powder can't be soft naturally. "Equal amounts of bees wax,paraffin wax and lube" seems to be the best recipie I've found. Mutton Tallow is a favorite lube for me as is olive oil also.

If you're shooting your revolver as an old time Civil War soldier the accuracy to point at and hit a torso at 10 yards is plenty good I'd imagine.
I've never read or heard of any credible documented info about Colt making the guns(cap&ballers) to shoot high to hit horses or whatever at 75 yards. I think that is a misinformation confused with the 1873 SAA revolver. The only revolver I've read that was requested by the Army Ordanance Dept. to be able to disable a horse out to 100 yards was the 1873 SAA and it was a cartridge design. I think the "made to shoot high" about the cap&ballers is hear-say passed from word of mouth. I believe the sights are situated on the Colts out of convienience and out of design for durability. The sights are short and stubby on the cap&ballers ,I believe, to be sturdy enough not to be knocked loose easily. I think people just quess at why the sights are short on the cap&ballers. Of course if one does shoot short shots with cap&ballers (and other guns) they may notice that at very short range the guns shoot "low". Short range being the intended use. The guns shoot low at short range due to the top of the front sight being a certain amount of space above the centerline of the bore. Like a scoped rifle will shoot low at a very short range since the centerline of the bore is "way down there" and the scopes center is "way up there" so to speak. If anyone ever shot rabbits in the eye at three/four paces they would know what I mean. Better aim to nip the hairs atop the head or you'll shoot the poor things lower jaw off.
Anyway if the chambers in the cylinders of the Italian cap&ballers are tapered (smaller towards the bottom)to a certain degree then keeping the balls at the top of the chambers just assures the ball will be as large as the chamber can leave it since the lower in the chamber the ball goes the smaller in size it's swagged. The chambers at the mouth being undersized to begin with the deep seating of the balls in the chambers just exassperates the problem.
A range rod is made to tell if a chamber is within "range" of being aligned properly. You know....in the ball park. The best way to know a cap&baller revolver chamber is in alignment is to learn to visually check it with a light down the muzzle. Close examination can tell you it's aligned or not. The undersized chambers make that easier since a small shiny line will show in each groove in the barrel on the breech end from the reflection of light against the flat face of the cylinder. The small bevels to the chambers mouth on some cap&ballers shows as "black" and not silver. If you see black then the cylinder shows some of the "bevel" in the grooves. That's a slight misalignment but "within range". Range rods ,as I understand, have to have close fit bushings within the chambers so the rod that rides the lands in the barrel,if it's a good fit,will slide into the center hole of the bushing if the gun is aligned. You'd need bushings fit in the cap&baller chambers with center holes a close fit to the rod that rides the lands in the barrel to tell if it's within range right?
Anyway......I hope I haven't aggravated anyone here with my "right to the point" way of writting. I'm trying but I am very tired. Tired.
I might add...the last 1860 Army Colt Pietta I worked on and tuned shot less than one inch at 20 paces. Probably can do better but my eyes are a little old and tired.
I've done the "tuning" I mentioned above to more than afew cap&ballers and they were all improved by the tuning.
Just thought I'd mention the things to try and be helpful.
 
Thank you for the information. Some people even go several steps futher to
try and get the best accuracy from these old revolvers. Some want them to
shoot like a S&W Masterpiece. Mine has a hand fitted cylinder pin. Cylinder has been plugged solid and each chamber re-bored down the barrel when on
full cock to make sure each chamber is alined with the bore. Chambers are
.002 larger than groove dia of barrel. Barrel is a custom with a 1-16 twist.
Barrel is lapped where it screws into frame to remove any tightness. This pistol locks up tighter than a bank vault. Oh the pistol is a Pietta 1858 Rem.
in .36 cal. What some people will do to get these old things to shoot. Now all
we have to do is work on the loose nut behind the wheel!!
 
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