Let's discuss the North Hollywood shootout

[Frontier509]

Quick answer
A chopper mounted mini gun would have made short work of the assailants.
Might not be a bad investment for the LAPD given the SoCal enviroment.
Advantages many, drawbacks few.

 

[Striker071]

Her is my .02 cents. Body armor.. most Body armor you can get is level IIIA ... trauma plates give you added protection in certain areas mainly center mass. Most handgun ammo will not penetrate Level IIIA armor. In this case a 223 round or two would have ended the incident rater quickly. During training I brought my FAL in 308 to the range we set up one of our vests that was being replace up on a target holder and I put about 6 rounds through the front and the back of the vest. We did that to show the class the importance of being aware of your cover situation if we encounter a person with a rifle. That is why LAPD now has some units with a M4 rifle in the trunk. Now the issue of sabot rounds in a shot gun... would they have the energy to penetrate the body armor at the standoff distance that was presented. Also You might be able to hit a target at the range with a pistol at 75 yards or more... but things change real quick when someone is sending lead your way as well...

 

[Double Naught Spy]

Now the issue of sabot rounds in a shot gun... would they have the energy to penetrate the body armor at the standoff distance that was presented.

Maybe. While a IIIa vest will stop most slugs and some sabot rounds at close range (20 yards), effectiveness is going to be lost with distance. There is one French sabot (I will have to look up the company name) that would be a good candidate, but it still would not be going through the plating that raised the vest strength to that of being a Level III in some areas.

I know, you are supposed to shoot them through the vest where there isn't any plating. That seems to be a really tough thing to do.

 

[BillCA]

Looking at the tests done on the Box o' Truth with shotgun slugs vs. a vest, I don't think anyone will enjoy being protected by the vest when the slug shoves their ribcage halfway down on their heart and lungs. That 5" to 6" depression in the clay backing is nothing to sneeze at.

The 12ga slug is a formidible projectile. That literal ton of energy has to go somewhere (in fact a 3" Winchester 1oz slug gives over 3000 ft-lbs). If the vest stops the slug that energy is very likely to knock your opponent to the ground like standing in front of a moving Buick.

Even if it only stuns your opponent for a few moments, one can only imagine what it would be like to be repeatedly struck by sledgehammer-like blows from several directions.

 

[JohnKSa]

I don't think anyone will enjoy being protected by the vest when the slug shoves their ribcage halfway down on their heart and lungs.

Soft armor vs. slug = injured target. Good quality hard armor vs slug = little to no effect.

If the vest stops the slug that energy is very likely to knock your opponent to the ground like standing in front of a moving Buick.

No it won't. Not even a .50BMG has the energy to "knock someone to the ground". I've seen it tested with a crash dummy of similar weight to a human and rigged to completely stop a .50BMG bullet fired at 10 feet. There was very little backward motion imparted to the dummy--certainly not enough to qualify as being "knocked to the ground".

 

[vox rationis]

No it won't. Not even a .50BMG has the energy to "knock someone to the ground". I've seen it tested with a crash dummy of similar weight to a human and rigged to completely stop a .50BMG bullet fired at 10 feet. There was very little backward motion imparted to the dummy--certainly not enough to qualify as being "knocked to the ground".

Yep, Newton taught us that for every action there is an equal and opposite reaction. If the gun has enough power to shoot a bullet that will knock something/someone down, the shooter will be knocked down just as much, or hard, as the object/person being hit.

 

[Double Naught Spy]

Looking at the tests done on the Box o' Truth with shotgun slugs vs. a vest, I don't think anyone will enjoy being protected by the vest when the slug shoves their ribcage halfway down on their heart and lungs. That 5" to 6" depression in the clay backing is nothing to sneeze at.

Yes, well, that is part of the reason why the North Hollywood robbers had incorporated steel plates into their armor. A COM shot with a 12 ga wasn't going to be significantly more harmful than the pistol rounds as a result. Like I said, it is hard to aim between the plates, especially if you don't know where they are.

Also keep in mind that the two robbers were body builders, mildly medicated, and not doubt experiencing an adrenaline rush. Even without the steel plates, 12 ga impacts to the vest may not have phased them too much.

If the vest stops the slug that energy is very likely to knock your opponent to the ground like standing in front of a moving Buick.

Buicks must be small in California these days.

The bad guy might fall down as a physiological response to being impacted, but not because of kinetic energy transference, as already noted. By the same token, I have seen a 250 lb man "knocked down" by a racquetball, but the reality is he wasn't knocked down.

 

[nemoaz]

John and Son of Vlad, thanks for rebutting the old wives tales.

I find myself just shaking my head in disbelief.

 

[Socrates]

Yep, Newton taught us that for every action there is an equal and opposite reaction. If the gun has enough power to shoot a bullet that will knock something/someone down, the shooter will be knocked down just as much, or hard, as the object/person being hit.

This gun hit me so hard I thought my shoulder was separated, and, that was through a big butt pad, not getting hit with a .510" caliber bullet.

600 grains, at 2150 fps gives you Energy of 6,160 foot-pounds for a 600 grain bullet at 2150 fps. Despite dummy testing, I can't help but think that you would at least be knocked back as much as I was if hit by this bullet.

By the way, I helped accuracy test the 450 grain, 1900 fps sabot, .45 caliber, from Ballistic Research INcorporated, in the early 80's. This sabot is now LEO only. It flattened deer, penetrated like crazy, and kicked like a mule. Energy wise, Energy of 3,608 foot-pounds for a 450 grain bullet at 1900 fps.

I'm not buying this won't go through steel plate, since it did when we tested it...
It was in fact, designed for just such situations...

 

[vox rationis]

600 grains, at 2150 fps gives you Energy of 6,160 foot-pounds for a 600 grain bullet at 2150 fps. Despite dummy testing, I can't help but think that you would at least be knocked back as much as I was if hit by this bullet.

Cool pictures.
I'm just amazed at the cannons you shoot..yowza
Well I'm no physics professor, but the right answer ought to be that an object that weighed as much as you do, would be hit as hard as your shoulder, and move as much, or little, as you did, if the bullet transferred all of its kinetic energy into the target (didn't overpenetrate). Nobody said that getting nailed with a big un' while wearing a vest wouldn't give you the mother of all bruising's

 

[JohnKSa]

The 50BMG has about twice that energy at the muzzle. I watched the original show and then watched the online video several times before it was removed (no doubt for copyright infringement.) The dummy moved backwards enough to be dislodged from the supports but then fell pretty much straight down. The bullet penetrated the armor plate installed in the chest but then stopped in the metal spine of the dummy so all of the momentum/energy of the bullet was expended in the impact.

 

[Double Naught Spy]

I'm not buying this won't go through steel plate, since it did when we tested it...
It was in fact, designed for just such situations...

What type of steel plate did you use? Did you use AR500 steel plate? If so, how thick? Or, did you just use some little piece of mild steel?

By the way, I helped accuracy test the 450 grain, 1900 fps sabot, .45 caliber, from Ballistic Research INcorporated, in the early 80's. This sabot is now LEO only.

Really, under what name is this LEO only uber round sold?

And do you have a photograph of your time machine? How did you like Australia?

http://www.ballisticsresearch.com/about.php

Ballistics Research, Inc., founded in 1999, is dedicated to the development and research of force protection and law enforcement tools, which enable projectile stopping, and the accurate and complete identification of fired handgun bullets, rifle bullets, and artillery shells. Careful scientific research, craftsmanship and investment has enabled Ballistics Research, Inc. to develop the best method of ballistic identification currently known, and the development and production of revolutionary projectile stopping units.

If they are an American company by the exact same name, they keep a very low profile. So where are they located?

 

[BillCA]

To clarify... The phsyiological reaction to a 12-gauge slug impact into soft body armor will most likely cause the recipient to go down. A heavy blow to the chest that compresses the ribs will be felt and knock the wind out of you at least.

Yes, well, that is part of the reason why the North Hollywood robbers had incorporated steel plates into their armor. A COM shot with a 12 ga wasn't going to be significantly more harmful than the pistol rounds as a result. Like I said, it is hard to aim between the plates, especially if you don't know where they are.

I'll grant you that steel plates will keep the subject from getting the full impact of the slugs. But it is unlikely that any subject would be covered with enough steel plates to absorb multiple slug hits from different directions.

Also keep in mind that the two robbers were body builders, mildly medicated, and not doubt experiencing an adrenaline rush. Even without the steel plates, 12 ga impacts to the vest may not have phased them too much.

I'll disagree here. A vest without plates will stop the slug, but the deformation of the body underneath, including compression of the ribs, can potentially stop the heart or cause bruising of the heart.

Had LAPD been able to deploy slugs with any accuracy, I think the shooters would have withdrawn faster. That said, I also think even if LAPD had slugs available, it would be a case of too few rounds available because the bean counters and policy hacks would only issue about 5 rounds per car.

 

[Powderman]

Had LAPD been able to deploy slugs with any accuracy, I think the shooters would have withdrawn faster. That said, I also think even if LAPD had slugs available, it would be a case of too few rounds available because the bean counters and policy hacks would only issue about 5 rounds per car.

I don't know about that--but I have exactly zero experience with testing vests. Now, if I had anything to do with it, I would issue these to supervisors for car and trunk carry. Politically correct enough to placate the bean counters and alarmists, pretty enough to not attract the attention of the naysayers--and plenty of power for just about any situation:

http://www.browning.com/products/catalog/firearms/detail.asp?value=002B&cat_id=031&type_id=001

Give them some 5 or 10 round magazines, chamber it in .338, or one of the short mags and load with some match bullets--or even some JSP. Bring on the body armor!

 

[R1145]

When all is said and done, the good guys won.

It's easy to talk about headshots with your pistol when you don't have a guy blazing away at you with an AK. Usually, you respond to a call with very little information. The fog of war is thick and hindsight is 20/20.

I think the shootout was successfully resolved: Containment was established, the suspects didn't get away.

Massive firefights like this and, say, the Miami shootout, are so extremely rare, I'm not sure how many conclusions one can draw from them.

One positive effect is that the LAPD seems to have more rifles deployed in the field. Like it or not, I see the trend towards rifles replacing shotguns in police work, with shotguns dedicated to less-lethal munitions. I think it's a good thing.

I heard a story that the dramatic takedown of the second shooter that occurred when a car full of SWAT officers drove up to a car the shooter was behind. Apparently, it was an accident: They didn't realize he was there until they got very close.

The one who got the shooter was the car's driver, who came out of the car then skipped bullets from his MP-5 off the pavement, which took out the shooter's feet.

 

[Socrates]

B.R.I. was originally formed in Santa Cruz, CA, in about 1980-85.
The owner used a classic sabot design, around 450-500 grains, cast superhard.

The sabot I shot out of a scoped Remington shotgun looked like the one on the left.

Box looks like this:

Few folks in Alaska on this forum still have em, and hoard them for bears.

Vern also made some others:

Here are some of the sabots he offered for sale:

http://www.thedealershowroom.com/page/page/1275214.htm

I think the patent was sold to Winchester, but, they are now focusing on offering their new slug, similar to
the Barnes X.

Here's a link to some of em, and, they even give credit to the original company, BRI, in the name:
http://images.google.com/imgres?img....R.I.+Shotgun+sabot&gbv=2&hl=en&safe=off&sa=G

This review is about the accuracy most get with the slugs:

Good Slugs for the Money, January 8, 2008
By Steve21009 from Maryland

"I have used 12 gauge BRI sabot slugs for several years, and see no reason to try any others. At 50 yards, I can shoot a 2" group all day long and could probably do better if I concentrated a little more. On a very windy day, I have seen people shoot 3-4" groups at 100 yards with these, so on a calm day I suspect that tighter groups could be achieved.
I have shot about a half dozen deer with this slug, and they have always done the job very well. I've never been able to recover a slug, so cannot comment on mushrooming or expansion. My guess is, with a slug this heavy, and with a diameter of .50", expansion is not really needed to do the job.
Another reason I have liked them is that for years they have been among the more reasonably-priced of all the sabot slugs out there.
The recoil is stout, but not unbearable. There are plenty of loads available with higher velocity, but those hot loads will punish your shoulder, with a likely negative effect on accuracy.
If you want a slug that you can almost afford, that doesn't kill your shoulder on the range, and is very accurate, I don't think you can do much better than this."

We tested the rounds at higher velocities the testing was intended to find out at what velocity the Sabot was most accurate. Benching full house shotgun sabots is NOT the most fun I've had shooting...

The full house loads were supposed to be in the 1800-1900 fps range. That would put a 440 grain, .50" caliber sabot, cast very hard, at Energy of 3,166 foot-pounds for a 440 grain bullet at 1800 fps. At 1900 fps Energy of 3,528 foot-pounds for a 440 grain bullet at 1900 fps.

It's VERY hard to slow down a slug weighing that much, and, I suspect that even if it didn't go through, you'd know you got hit with it.
Plus, the sabots were VERY accurate, suitable as a Politically Correct alternative to a high powered rifle. The Sabot could easily be tuned to penetrate armour, with no one being the wiser. Us a monometal, super hard material, turned on a lathe, and, you would have armour piercing and politically correct...

 

[easyG]

What could the police have done differently to end the situation much quicker?

They should have quickly established a single leader who could have coordinated their fire-power on a specific target at a specific time.

For example.....
"All shooters, target on the right only, head shots only, on my command....one...two....FIRE!!!"

Every single officer simultaneously unloading on one target's head would have probably put the target down.
Then they could have concentrated on the second target.

 

[Double Naught Spy]

Every single officer simultaneously unloading on one target's head would have probably put the target down.

Then they could have concentrated on the second target.

First, given the ability to aim and hit, everyone shooting at the same time, even at the suspect's head (which they were doing, BTW), would just mean that everyone missed at the same time and then managed to all unload their guns together such that you have a bunch of cops doing mag changes at the same time and nobody providing cover fire or having the ability to do so.

What do you do for the cops who are exposed and trying to shoot the suspect's head, but the suspects are raking them with full auto fire?

Also, what com system was in place that would make it possible for all officers to hear all commands sufficiently well to make such a coordinated effort? Yes, most undoubtedly had their walkie talkies, but not all of them. So you have several dozen officers spread out over a very large area and firing at suspects from 270 degree around the suspects. So are these commands going to be shouted over the roar of the fire?

 

[easyG]

First, given the ability to aim and hit, everyone shooting at the same time, even at the suspect's head (which they were doing, BTW), would just mean that everyone missed at the same time and then managed to all unload their guns together such that you have a bunch of cops doing mag changes at the same time and nobody providing cover fire or having the ability to do so.

It's all about playing the odds....
Concentrated fire definitely increases the odds of at least one good hit....much more so than non-concentrated fire, which had already proven ineffective.
And even if everyone did somehow missed and had to change magazines all at the same time, it would have only meant about five seconds of interruption, which would not have made their plight any worse off than it already was.

What do you do for the cops who are exposed and trying to shoot the suspect's head, but the suspects are raking them with full auto fire?

What alternative did they have....curl up in the fetal position and wait to die?
They were already exposed and getting shot at with full auto fire....concentrating their firepower at one target's head certainly would not have made their situation any worse.
Yes, it is scarey to return fire when you're being shot at (I know firsthand), but sometimes there's really no other viable alternative.

Also, what com system was in place that would make it possible for all officers to hear all commands sufficiently well to make such a coordinated effort? Yes, most undoubtedly had their walkie talkies, but not all of them. So you have several dozen officers spread out over a very large area and firing at suspects from 270 degree around the suspects. So are these commands going to be shouted over the roar of the fire?

Yeah, the military does it all the time....and we didn't even have "bullhorns".
You shout out to all who can hear and they pass it along.
It's certainly not a perfect system, but it's a better than what they were doing.

 

[Double Naught Spy]

The odds don't change just because the officers are shooting at the same time. Sorry, but statistically that does not matter. They can all miss at the same time or all miss separately.

What choice to the cops have how are being shot at? You are kidding right? They seek cover. It is a rather obvious choice.

As for the military and their good coms, they don't do so well when orders are shouted over long distances for the type of precision timed volley that you are describing.