Let's discuss the North Hollywood shootout

[Double Naught Spy]

There is the repeated claim that the cops were outgunned. That just was not the case. Dozens of officers fired on just two bad guys. They were outarmored. The bad guys simply came better prepared to handle what the opposition had to throw at them.

Another factor, according to reports I've read, is that officers were trained to only shoot COM. None were trained to take a head shot if COM hits weren't working out. Mind you, it does take some cajones to return fire against a FA long gun when all you have is a handgun.

Actually, the problem here goes deeper. LAPD cops didn't qualify beyond 25 yards at the time either. The cops had NO idea where their rounds would print at the distances being fired when they did aim. Mind you, only a few shots early on and at the end were close range (inside 50 yards). The distance from the cops in the intersection to the BGs was approximately 75 yards. The next layer was some 50 yards further back at 125 yards.

They didn't practice on moving targets. At those distances and at walking speed, even if the cops took a well aimed shot at the head of the suspects that would have hit a stationary target, the shot would have missed a person at walking speed. I doubt any of the cops were able to both estimate proper holdover and proper lead to make head shots at those distances.

They didn't practice firing from non-traditional positions such as from behind cover. They may have been exposed to some training in the areas, but these were not maintained skills.

Curious, what kind of practical** accuracy do you expect from a semi-auto service pistol?

**shot offhand or using a field expedient rest from behind cover.

This group was shot offhand. I purchased the Glock used from a gun shop/range that was closing down. It was one of their rental guns and was completely stock at the time this group was shot

JohnKSa shoots well. With no disrespect to the cops, he shoots better than most, without question. And I have put him to the test with this sort of situation in mind. He attended the ISHOT1000 match and had to shoot head size moving targets out to 75 yards. He was one of the better shooters and I don't recall anyone hitting the target more than 7 times out of 50 shots. The target was a 6" diameter circular metal 3-D target that moved in all three planes. Of course, these weren't the first rounds of the day fired. We worked back at to that distance such that the participants had opportunities to to learn as the distance increased. Shots were offhand, but not from behind cover. So John didn't just show up and was then immediately put into a high stress situation of hitting a tiny moving target at 75 yards.

Here is an example from just 1/3 that distance...
http://www.vholdr.com/video/second-range-test

There is yet another problem with shooting such small targets at that distance. For most defensive pistols, the front sight is fairly large for rapid acquisition. While maybe not really large, a 6" target at 75 yards is only about 1/2 - 1/3 the width of the front sight when viewed down the sight axis. You can have the target aligned with the front sight, but if the bore isn't exactly aligned with the sight, then you can be "on target" and miss with every shot. Remember that most guns are sighted in at 10-25 yards and will seem to print just fine at those distances, but when the distance is increased my many times, slight issues at short range that may not even be noticed will become serious issues at long range. For example for the gun I used in the match, a Springfield EMP, I found that at 75 yards that my shots were printing lower than the top edge of my front sight and on its left side.

The bottom line from this is that even if officers were there who understood holdover, lead, etc., they still probably didn't have guns sighted well enough to make the necessary shots with any sort of expected consistency.

 

[Tuckahoe]

Besides which, if your problem is 25-50 yards away and you can't hurt it- you ain't fighting your way back to nothing.

I do not believe any handgun would have mattered in this case. A handgun is made for short range quick encounters. No military force would issue handguns only. I know police are not military but the people they were fighting were going way beyond your typical street criminal.

 

[jfrey123]

Recently (6 months maybe) I saw a Discover channel type show. The patrol officers involved were interviewed and all agreed that the best thing that came from this is that they're now allowed to carry patrol rifles and also upgrade from the standard 9mm to .45ACP. The police are much happier not being limited to the 9mm.

 

[Socrates]

They didn't practice on moving targets. At those distances and at walking speed, even if the cops took a well aimed shot at the head of the suspects that would have hit a stationary target, the shot would have missed a person at walking speed. I doubt any of the cops were able to both estimate proper holdover and proper lead to make head shots at those distances.

John Linebaugh has a similar test. He puts a balloon on the end of a remote control car. The car starts at 35 yards, and the shooter, using a high powered rifle, has about enough time to get off two shots. The balloon, in this case represents what the target area is on a charging cape buffalo. Not the way people are normally taught to shoot. The bottom line is shooting at a moving target is NOT something police are taught.

The targets in this case kept moving. Head shots WERE NOT practical. Somebody mentioned a Browning .50. Overkill, but the right idea. Something that can go through a Class III vest, is needed. An old beat up Mosin Nagant 44 would have done the trick, with ball ammo.

My experience has been the combat sites on M1A's, and others, work well for hitting a moving targets, better then even scopes, and, in particular at the ranges in this shooting.

 

[Double Naught Spy]

Recently (6 months maybe) I saw a Discover channel type show. The patrol officers involved were interviewed and all agreed that the best thing that came from this is that they're now allowed to carry patrol rifles and also upgrade from the standard 9mm to .45ACP. The police are much happier not being limited to the 9mm.

.45 acp would not have made a single difference. It would not go through body armor either and has a greater drop rate (more trajectory arc) than the 9mm.

The targets in this case kept moving. Head shots WERE NOT practical. Somebody mentioned a Browning .50. Overkill, but the right idea. Something that can go through a Class III vest, is needed. An old beat up Mosin Nagant 44 would have done the trick, with ball ammo.

Post hoc information is great. Nobody at the time had a clue that the vests were Class III. All the officers knew was that the vests were bulky and stopping pistol and buckshot rounds. Level III vests will stop your standard .308 rounds, but not the AP version. Not many depts have AP ammo, certainly not on their patrol officers.

Head shots with a rifle would have been practical, especially for all that time the robbers were in one location with their backs to the bank wall, just walking back and forth in a small area. An AR15 with normal combat sighting at 25 or 50 yard zero would have required no holdover. With a velocity of 2.50-3.0 times greater than that of the 9mm would be enough to still make the head shots with little or no tracking lead.

 

[Socrates]

Post hoc information is great...What could the police have done differently to end the situation much quicker? The gunmen were able to keep the police at bay for a long time. What do you think could have been done differently, and what have officers learned since the incident?

Congratulations, Sherlock. You figured out what this thread is.
I have the DVD of that, somewhere, but, haven't watched it for awhile. Thanks for the refresher. Did NOT remember the vests being Level III, but, Isn't that about the limit for practical vests?

What they can learn is that on super rare situations, shots from 50-100 yards, at very small MOVING targets may need to happen.

Second: if the target is moving, it maybe neccessary to have a rifle, or pistol, capable of piercing Level III armour, at 50-100 yards.

Or, to put it another way,
"The reason for a pistol is to fight your way back to the rifle you should never have dropped in the first place."

And, don't forget,
"Never bring a pistol to a rifle/machine gun fight."

 

[Jermtheory]

Bill said "The situation didn't unfold the way most cops would expect."

You win the Big Bingo pot of the night for that one, brother. One of the real lessons in this gunfight, and in other historic high profile police gunfights. Luck of the draw exists, never be happy with a minimum standard, have some plan for the unexpected.

I keep dusting off this old saying from Clint Smith, even though he is a Marine, got to give him a tip of the hat for this one.

"the fight is never what you THINK it will be. It is gonna be what it's gonna be, the only variable is what YOU are going to do."


By the way nice to read your words again.

Good Luck & Be Safe

i think thats sig material...

 

[Double Naught Spy]

I have the DVD of that, somewhere, but, haven't watched it for awhile. Thanks for the refresher. Did NOT remember the vests being Level III, but, Isn't that about the limit for practical vests?

Dr. Watson,
Nope, Level IV which is now as light as III was then, some is lighter. Besides, you said your Mosin Nagant would do the job with ball ammo through Class III (Level III) and that isn't the case.

What they can learn is that on super rare situations, shots from 50-100 yards, at very small MOVING targets may need to happen.

Most of the officers actually shot from more than 125 yards. The issue of moving targets has always been a concern. Most of the officers wounded were wounded inside of 75 yards during the earlier stages of the fight. Hence the secondary ring of officers at about 125 yards on the far side of the intersection from the robbers.

Second: if the target is moving, it maybe neccessary to have a rifle, or pistol, capable of piercing Level III armour, at 50-100 yards.

Why stop at Level III? Do an online search for Level IV armor that will stop 30.06 AP rounds. Hence the notation above of the .50 BMG.

What pistol rounds are going to pierce Level III or IV body armor at 50, 100, or 125 yards? Inquiring minds want to know.

Or, to put it another way,
"The reason for a pistol is to fight your way back to the rifle you should never have dropped in the first place."

Mindless mantra - great. How do you fight your way back to that which you didn't ever have?

And, don't forget,
"Never bring a pistol to a rifle/machine gun fight."

Great, more mindless mantra. The cops didn't really have a choice in deciding if they wanted to show up or not.

 

[FLA2760]

Here is a 2 minute 30 second clip from the LAPD police radio as it was going down. The site has a lot of cool scanner links and stuff. I think that the patrol rifle in LAPD cruisers was a result of the North Hollywood shootings.
I am not sure if only supervisors carry the rifles or not though.


http://www.police-scanner.info/audio/north_hollywood.htm

 

[Crosshair]

Why stop at Level III? Do an online search for Level IV armor that will stop 30.06 AP rounds. Hence the notation above of the .50 BMG.

That's why you hit them a couple of times or go with a gutshot where the plates don't cover. Though if you have 2+ officers shooting at a suspect with 30-06s, those plates won't past long. Plus the blunt force trauma will still hurt them to a degree.

Training in rapid follow up shots would be needed. It would be a PITA to get the 50 into position.

 

[Socrates]

http://www.theboxotruth.com/docs/bot16.htm

Dr. Watson,
Nope, Level IV which is now as light as III was then, some is lighter. Besides, you said your Mosin Nagant would do the job with ball ammo through Class III (Level III) and that isn't the case.

Thank you Mr. Holmes;-) But, it appears from the test posted above, the
.223 and 7.62 x 39 blow through IIIA. I suspect 182 grain ball, at 2600 fps would do the job. Also, a box of armour piercing would do for any body armour.

What pistol rounds are going to pierce Level III or IV body armor at 50, 100, or 125 yards? Inquiring minds want to know.

Pistol rounds likely to do the job would not be PC. .475 Linebaugh, heavy 454, using monometal bullets.http://www.handloads.com/misc/linebaugh.penetration.tests.asp

Notice Keith bullets, do well. Heavy hard cast. Punch bullets
http://www.theboxotruth.com/docs/bot16.htm
are monometal, with a lead core added, since the government
classifys solid hard monometal bullets, like Barnes solids, as armour piercing, and, generally illegal.

I see no reason police aren't allowed to carry M1A's in the car, with armour piercing ammo. Milsurp should do the trick. At 300 yards, I had one go through the thick part of a manhole cover, and, stick nearly it's full length out the back of the manhole cover.

It's a lot easier to give police guns that give them a chance against Mexican gangbangers, then try and stop the gangbangers from getting the guns...

Also, the CZ 52 used a .30 caliber or so bullet, that went real fast, and, easily defeated most body armour. 7.62 Tokarev bottle-necked cartridge

Another good test of vests and bullets:
http://www.theboxotruth.com/docs/bot29_3.htm

http://www.theboxotruth.com/docs/bot24.htm

 

[Powderman]

Have we prepared? My Department is.

We have two Casinos, and to address this problem, we carry AR15's for patrol rifles. I also have with me on patrol a .308 rifle (Savage 10FP-LE2A), loaded with issued 168 gr. GM Match, topped with the Burris 6-24x50 XTR.

At the Department, we also have two iron-sighted .338 Magnums. These are primarily for Fish and Game, but can be pressed into service if needed.

And, have I trained? Without going into all the details, I'll simply say yes--both LE and military.

 

[Double Naught Spy]

Thank you Mr. Holmes;-) But, it appears from the test posted above, the .223 and 7.62 x 39 blow through IIIA. I suspect 182 grain ball, at 2600 fps would do the job. Also, a box of armour piercing would do for any body armour.

Soccrates, the North Hollywood bank robbers had added steel plates to their homemade armor, capable enough to stop .223 rounds. The vests were not just IIIa, but III. You started off by noting they were III, now you are saying IIIa. You realize that IIIa is the highest level of soft armor and III is the next higher level and involves hard armor, right?

And NO, a box of armor piercing ammo will not do it for any body armor. Level IV is specifically made to defeat AP ammo, up to 30.06 AP. That means your M1A in .308, even with AP ammo isn't going through Level IV.

Your beloved Linbaugh would not penetrate III or IV, even if you actually have started loading your cases with slugs, LOL.

http://www.thefreelibrary.com/DYING...O+POLICE:+:+`SHOOT+ME+IN+THE+HEAD'-a083864135

That's why you hit them a couple of times or go with a gutshot where the plates don't cover. Though if you have 2+ officers shooting at a suspect with 30-06s, those plates won't past long. Plus the blunt force trauma will still hurt them to a degree.

...which is why US Soldiers are being targeted with head shots as their hard armor is stopping COC shots just fine, even from close range.

Here is a great example of Level IV armor at work...

http://passtheammo.com/2005/07/soldier-medic-survives-sniper/

And the sniper was using AP rounds according to the medic in his letter to Point Blank...
http://www.pointblankarmor.com/news.asp

WATCH INCREDIBLE VIDEO OF U.S. ARMY SOLDIER (PFC. TSCHIDERER) SURVIVING A HIT FROM A SNIPER'S BULLET

The following is a letter of appreciation from PFC Stephen "Doc" Tschiderer, U.S. Army

Dear Point Blank,

First let me say thank you for saving my life!! I am forever grateful!!!! My name is PFC Stephen Tschiderer, and I am currently deployed to Bagdhad, Iraq. Yesterday, July 2, 2005, I was on patrol and while proving security around my Humvee, I was shot by a sniper. This sniper was useing a Draganov sniper rifle with AP rounds. The round struck me at an angle and did not come through the SAPI plate. Enclosed are some pics of the plate and what the round did to me, which thanks to you guys is only a small mark. My family and everyone that knows me sends our thanks and keep up the GREAT work.

THANK YOU AGAIN!!!
PFC Stephen “Doc” Tschiderer
E Troop 101 CAV 256BCT
Bagdhad, Iraq

 

[tshadow6]

North Hollywood

My agency allows any Deputy with an issued vehicle or is a member of the Tatical teams to go through the AR 15 course and carry either an AR 15 or Ruger Mini 14. I would like to see more long guns added to the list. Why shouldn't a SKS or Marlin lever action be allowed? Any rifle caliber would have penetrated the ballistic protection the bad guys wore.

 

[Socrates]

OOS:

I'm not real willing to take your word on 400-525 grain monometal bullets not being armour piercing. If the government made them pretty much illegal, or tried, they probably have a pretty good reason. This may sound a bit strange, but velocity can be the enemy of penetration...

That said, thanks for the tutorial on vests.

Just curious what level armour in the groin, and legs?

the lessons learned are first, bring a rifle:
Second shoot it well.
Third a box of AP ammo might be a good idea...

For police, perhaps we better go back to handguns with better penetration, and, non hollow point ammo, or, at least have a clip with ball ammo in it...

If you are in an area that it's likely you are going to face an armoured bank robber, consider a rifle that shoots heavier bullets, like a 9.3 X 62, 375 H&H, or 458 Lott, and, use solids...
I was just thinking if a 375 H&H wouldn't be ideal, with monometal solids...
Or, I guess my 475 Ackley might penetrate that Class IV or V armour, 600 grains at 2200 fps?

"Why does the bad guy have a giant hole in both sides, and, through 3 vests, with plating?"
"Your honor, I was on the way to the range, and, I just happened to have my .475 Ackley in the trunk."

 

[BillCA]

If you are in an area that it's likely you are going to face an armoured bank robber, consider a rifle that shoots heavier bullets, like a 9.3 X 62, 375 H&H, or 458 Lott, and, use solids...

It's unlikely any police department would ever be allowed to use a heavy African game rifle in an urban area. The liability risk for collateral damage is just too high.

Face it, while it might not be as ballsy-macho as some huge caliber African game round or voodoo-ish sniper round (e.g. 408 Cheytac), the .308 M1A NM with a good scope will do the job. A pair of magazines loaded with AP rounds for "special purpose" use would likely be enough. If body hits aren't working, you go for the head or the pelvis and/or legs. If unable to do that, target the weapon he's using.

I will note that trying to make even a 125 yard shot on a moving target hosing down the area with his own .308 makes a head shot... challenging to say the least.

And, since it's the police, they can obtain ammo that's verbotten to the masses, such as solid brass or tungsten cored ammo.

 

[Socrates]

Bill:
007 nixed the 308 M1A with armour piercing, since it's supposed to not work on Level VI, or V vests..

None of the vests are designed to handle bullets with twice the kenetic energy of the 30-06. The 9.3 isn't really an African rifle, it's a Europe/world rifle. The 286 grain bullets, monometal solids, like barnes, at 2400-2500 fps penetrate like crazy, about twice, or three times the depth of the 30-06, or other .308 about caliber AP rounds...Powderman says they have .338's laying around. That's close.

Heck, the 9.3 recoils so little even a police officer might hit his target, with open sites, at 125 yards...

And Bill, at least read a little of the thread...

 

[Erik]

Uh, you might as well be advocating phasers.

The US LEO market is a 5.56 and 7.62 market, with the 7.62 segment of that market almost exclusively contained within tactical units.

And THAT is deemed very controversial in many parts of the country. Hell, its controversial to many posters HERE.

Readily available slugs and/or M4s would have ended things nicely, much sooner.

 

[Spade Cooley]

I worked that area and retired just before the shooting happened. I knew some of the players.

The pistol on the street was either the S & W or Beretta in 9MM. A few 38 S & W revolvers were there. Some patrol officers had shotguns with OO Buck. Some Swat teams arrived late and had AR-15s.

The street cops were trained to take head shots when they thought body armor was present. The drill at the range was to double tap the center mass and put the third shot in the head. I would venture to say many took the head shot but missed. It might be hard to make the head shot with the pistol when someone is spraying you with and automatic weapon.

The next trip I took to Calif. I saw a motor officer with an AR mounted on his bike. I'm sure there are a lot more in the cars these days.

If any of you are ever in L A for a visit, go to the old Highland Park Station where the LAPD Museum is located. They display the suits the bad guys were wearing on dummies with all the holes. I think there are around 30 holes in each suit. A head shot would have taken them out.

 

[BillCA]

Bill:
007 nixed the 308 M1A with armour piercing, since it's supposed to not work on Level VI, or V vests..

I saw that before I posted, thank you.

And Bill, at least read a little of the thread...

Please do not presume I don't read a majority of threads I post to.

My point was that in order to provide a good standard weapon for squad car trunks, nothing more than the .308 is needed. The AR15/M4 is easier to train a wide variety of police with and even the 5.56 platform could have stopped the fight with a headshot. Using a .308 M1A and a head shot would make no significant difference over the M4 (dead is dead).

The primary advantages of the .308 are the greater energy/penetration, semi-auto fire, ammo availability and the ability to obtain AP ammo for special purpose use. And you can still train a good number of officers to shoot it.

There is no need for unusual rifles in odd or brutish chamberings that produce ~4000 ft-lbs of energy. I've fired the 9.3mm round from a Mannlicher carbine and it would not be my first choice for an anti-personnel rifle. Firing a .375 H&H was more fun.

Fortunately, armored bandits are relatively few & far between. If one suspected today would involve an upcoming encounter with such, then one would opt to let the SWAT guys show up with something like the Barrett XM109 25x59mm. Y'know, just in case they're walking around with 50mm armor plates.