Double Naught Spy
New member
There is the repeated claim that the cops were outgunned. That just was not the case. Dozens of officers fired on just two bad guys. They were outarmored. The bad guys simply came better prepared to handle what the opposition had to throw at them.
Actually, the problem here goes deeper. LAPD cops didn't qualify beyond 25 yards at the time either. The cops had NO idea where their rounds would print at the distances being fired when they did aim. Mind you, only a few shots early on and at the end were close range (inside 50 yards). The distance from the cops in the intersection to the BGs was approximately 75 yards. The next layer was some 50 yards further back at 125 yards.
They didn't practice on moving targets. At those distances and at walking speed, even if the cops took a well aimed shot at the head of the suspects that would have hit a stationary target, the shot would have missed a person at walking speed. I doubt any of the cops were able to both estimate proper holdover and proper lead to make head shots at those distances.
They didn't practice firing from non-traditional positions such as from behind cover. They may have been exposed to some training in the areas, but these were not maintained skills.
JohnKSa shoots well. With no disrespect to the cops, he shoots better than most, without question. And I have put him to the test with this sort of situation in mind. He attended the ISHOT1000 match and had to shoot head size moving targets out to 75 yards. He was one of the better shooters and I don't recall anyone hitting the target more than 7 times out of 50 shots. The target was a 6" diameter circular metal 3-D target that moved in all three planes. Of course, these weren't the first rounds of the day fired. We worked back at to that distance such that the participants had opportunities to to learn as the distance increased. Shots were offhand, but not from behind cover. So John didn't just show up and was then immediately put into a high stress situation of hitting a tiny moving target at 75 yards.
Here is an example from just 1/3 that distance...
http://www.vholdr.com/video/second-range-test
There is yet another problem with shooting such small targets at that distance. For most defensive pistols, the front sight is fairly large for rapid acquisition. While maybe not really large, a 6" target at 75 yards is only about 1/2 - 1/3 the width of the front sight when viewed down the sight axis. You can have the target aligned with the front sight, but if the bore isn't exactly aligned with the sight, then you can be "on target" and miss with every shot. Remember that most guns are sighted in at 10-25 yards and will seem to print just fine at those distances, but when the distance is increased my many times, slight issues at short range that may not even be noticed will become serious issues at long range. For example for the gun I used in the match, a Springfield EMP, I found that at 75 yards that my shots were printing lower than the top edge of my front sight and on its left side.
The bottom line from this is that even if officers were there who understood holdover, lead, etc., they still probably didn't have guns sighted well enough to make the necessary shots with any sort of expected consistency.
Another factor, according to reports I've read, is that officers were trained to only shoot COM. None were trained to take a head shot if COM hits weren't working out. Mind you, it does take some cajones to return fire against a FA long gun when all you have is a handgun.
Actually, the problem here goes deeper. LAPD cops didn't qualify beyond 25 yards at the time either. The cops had NO idea where their rounds would print at the distances being fired when they did aim. Mind you, only a few shots early on and at the end were close range (inside 50 yards). The distance from the cops in the intersection to the BGs was approximately 75 yards. The next layer was some 50 yards further back at 125 yards.
They didn't practice on moving targets. At those distances and at walking speed, even if the cops took a well aimed shot at the head of the suspects that would have hit a stationary target, the shot would have missed a person at walking speed. I doubt any of the cops were able to both estimate proper holdover and proper lead to make head shots at those distances.
They didn't practice firing from non-traditional positions such as from behind cover. They may have been exposed to some training in the areas, but these were not maintained skills.
Curious, what kind of practical** accuracy do you expect from a semi-auto service pistol?
**shot offhand or using a field expedient rest from behind cover.
This group was shot offhand. I purchased the Glock used from a gun shop/range that was closing down. It was one of their rental guns and was completely stock at the time this group was shot
JohnKSa shoots well. With no disrespect to the cops, he shoots better than most, without question. And I have put him to the test with this sort of situation in mind. He attended the ISHOT1000 match and had to shoot head size moving targets out to 75 yards. He was one of the better shooters and I don't recall anyone hitting the target more than 7 times out of 50 shots. The target was a 6" diameter circular metal 3-D target that moved in all three planes. Of course, these weren't the first rounds of the day fired. We worked back at to that distance such that the participants had opportunities to to learn as the distance increased. Shots were offhand, but not from behind cover. So John didn't just show up and was then immediately put into a high stress situation of hitting a tiny moving target at 75 yards.
Here is an example from just 1/3 that distance...
http://www.vholdr.com/video/second-range-test
There is yet another problem with shooting such small targets at that distance. For most defensive pistols, the front sight is fairly large for rapid acquisition. While maybe not really large, a 6" target at 75 yards is only about 1/2 - 1/3 the width of the front sight when viewed down the sight axis. You can have the target aligned with the front sight, but if the bore isn't exactly aligned with the sight, then you can be "on target" and miss with every shot. Remember that most guns are sighted in at 10-25 yards and will seem to print just fine at those distances, but when the distance is increased my many times, slight issues at short range that may not even be noticed will become serious issues at long range. For example for the gun I used in the match, a Springfield EMP, I found that at 75 yards that my shots were printing lower than the top edge of my front sight and on its left side.
The bottom line from this is that even if officers were there who understood holdover, lead, etc., they still probably didn't have guns sighted well enough to make the necessary shots with any sort of expected consistency.