Let's discuss the North Hollywood shootout

No they were fools. They robbed a bank very slowly and loudly.
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Um, no. They were known for the speed at which they were in and out of the bank and away before police could arrive. They were spotted and reported going into the bank and by luck police got there far quicker than in the past.

Robbing banks isn't that difficult, but it is much easier without body armor, pills and machine guns.
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Robbing banks and GETTING AWAY WITH IT is actually quite difficult. They successfully did this many times.

Their quick entry with gunshots into the ceiling was very effective at gaining quick compliance from everyone in the bank. A robber with a revolver or just a note to the teller can't get that sort of quick compliance, though they will frequently get a dye bomb.

When discovered by police instead of surrendering or making a quick get away they chose to stand and fight against a police department.
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How exactly would they have made a quick getaway in that situation? A space rocket? Seriously, I wanna know. The cops have cars too and helicopters seem to have no problem following cars either. Their plan relied on getting away before police arrived and melting into traffic. Staying and shooting it out was no more stupid that trying to drive away because no matter what they were screwed at that point.
 
Um, no. They were known for the speed at which they were in and out of the bank and away before police could arrive.
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Right.

They were spotted and reported going into the bank and by luck police got there far quicker than in the past.
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It isn't that the police got there far quicker than in the past, the robbers were spotted by a normal random patrol as they went into the bank and they radio'd a "possible 211 in progress."
 
It isn't that the police got there far quicker than in the past, the robbers were spotted by a normal random patrol as they went into the bank and they radio'd a "possible 211 in progress."
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My bad, you were right. I was going by memory and thought someone flagged down a passing cop car.
 
Yeah, it was a very fortuitous event where the cops were on scene like they were. That just doesn't happen often.

Either way, you are right in that the robbers were not slow in their actions and were in and out fairly quick. They would have been out sooner had they not searched for money that wasn't in the bank and had not tried getting into the ATMs, but they didn't overstay their schedule. They played the averages and ended up on the short end of the statistical response time curve.
 
Maybe tactical approach?

Respected all,

Would have been of any use to maybe flank the suspects (say from Agnes and Archwood and/or Agnes and Kittrich) up to the corners of the bank building, to position some shooters in effective pistol range?

I'm fully aware that it requires a lot of valor to make that kind of approach. On one hand, the approaching officers may or may not know if there are more BG's around, with the subsequent risk, and on the other hand, it may be "kind" of dangerous to approach the target area of many other officers (Murphy laws apply.- a person MAY NOT hit the head of a BG at 75 yards, but a stray bullet WILL hit the approaching officer...).

Kind regards.
 
Um, no. They were known for the speed at which they were in and out of the bank and away before police could arrive. They were spotted and reported going into the bank and by luck police got there far quicker than in the past.
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These guys planned on being in the bank for 8 minutes. Can you imagine firing a machine-gun in a public place and hanging out for 8 minutes. They immediately fired a machine gun burst into the ceiling upon entering. I'd say that's a very bad plan. They wound up staying in the bank a lot more than 8 minutes but that's not the point.

The point is that strapping on 40 pounds of body-armor, marching accross a parking lot with large machine-guns and firing the guns into the ceiling at the beginning of their robbery was a very good way to draw attention and get into a gun battle. That's probably what they wanted anyway.

I don't know the statistics but I would venture to say that most bank robberies are successful. Some bank robbers have committed dozens of robberies spanning decades and not been caught. That's amazing when you consider that most criminals are idiots with poor impulse control.


Back to the OP. I feel the police handled themselves pretty well in this extreme situation.
 
These guys planned on being in the bank for 8 minutes. Can you imagine firing a machine-gun in a public place and hanging out for 8 minutes. They immediately fired a machine gun burst into the ceiling upon entering. I'd say that's a very bad plan. They wound up staying in the bank a lot more than 8 minutes but that's not the point.

The point is that strapping on 40 pounds of body-armor, marching accross a parking lot with large machine-guns and firing the guns into the ceiling at the beginning of their robbery was a very good way to draw attention and get into a gun battle.
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They went in at 9:30 and exited at 9:38 for the first time, so they were definitely on schedule, but retreated back into the bank when confronted by the police. So they did hold to their original timeline.

Firing a machinegun into the ceiling is a bad plan? Depends on what you are trying to accomplish. Displays of power are common in takeover robberies such as this and tend to be successful in quelling the occupants of the bank. Does firing draw attention? Maybe so, but if it usually takes the cops quite a while to arrive, what does it matter?

Takeover bank robberies are some of the most dangerous for the occupants of banks, and the bank community knows this.
http://www.bankersonline.com/articles/bhv12n12/bhv12n12a3.html

Walking around in body armor and firing machineguns in the parking lot drew attention? By that time, it was a moot point. They had the attention of the police at the time they entered the building.
 
This incident, like only a handful of others, chills my blood, having family holding the thin blue line. The kind of mentality to stand against the police with full and open intent to murder as many as possible makes me feel cold.

The one good result of this is that it is one of the incidents that made the Patrol Rifle - and training on it - a staple. Police today are more ready for such incidents, and even on brother's rural department they carry in the cabin and are trained on Colt M4s.

Here's hoping nothing like this every happens again, and if it does it is put down judiciously.
 
Folks are starting to rant a bit away from the tactics and to political issues in CA. Not relevant to this thread.

Keep on target, so to speak. Yeah, if you were there with a Civil War Sharps, you could have made the head shot - but you weren't.
 
Everybody's an expert marksman......
until the targets are moving and shooting at them.
I don't think Rob Leatham could have gotten off a good shot during the incident.

Perhaps teh LAPD has integrated a force on force component into their training.
 
It's like Shadow1198 said,

the only reason we're even talking about these guys is because what

they did to prepare for a confrontation was so incredibly unusual.

They get a special chapter all their own in many SWAT books.

IMO, in the 1 in 100,000 case where people do something like this,

there is just NO WAY the LEOs could have been prepared.

Given the narrow likelihood of a re-occurrence, it would be

almost wasteful for cops to over-prepare for it.

We are talking about THE North Hollywood shootout, the one they

made the movie HEAT about, remember?

Look at it like this:

There may be a good possibility the earth may flood before somebody like

these guys shows up on the scene again.

Should LEOs carry an inflatable ARK around in their trunk too?

Cops equipment is designed to deal with a high percentage of emergencies.

There is no way they can second-guess EVERY call and proper response.
 
You know why don't we discuss two incidents with armored vehicles. In one a guy commandeered a tank and went for a ride. In another a guy built his own tank. Why weren't the police prepared with AT weapons in their cars or the police should have had Apaches or A-10s on patrol?

I supposed on TLF in Metropolis, people are critiquing the MPD for not having kryptonite bullets for when General Zod appeared?

:D
 
there is just NO WAY the LEOs could have been prepared.
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Actually, this isn't quite right. Had LAPD allowed officers to have slugs for their shotguns and not just buckshot, the fight might have been over much sooner. I forget when officer it was, but he had a shotgun early in the fight was something like 50 yards distant from the shooters. He hit them with buckshot, but no real harm done.

At 50 yards, he certainly could have taken head shots. At 100, he could has well, even with a smple bead sight. It does tend to be easier to hit targets at longer ranges when the weapon you are using has a longer sight radius.

So basically, one small equipment change could have made a real difference, but LAPD didn't want their patrol officers shooting slugs and so they weren't armed with any.
 
We are talking about THE North Hollywood shootout, the one they

made the movie HEAT about, remember?
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Heat came out in 1995; the shootout was in 97. A documentary on the shootout claimed the two shooters were inspired by the movie.
 
OK, ah, OOPS?:o

Still don't think it's reasonable to expect LEOs to be prepared for 100%

of all calls they take. Somebody's always going to think of something new,

and while our hind sight has 20/20 vision(even though my memory,

admittedly, sucks) none of us here had the foresight to warn the LAPD

in advance of this carnage ridden incident.
 
That show was on again last night. I know nothing about LEO/military infantry tng. or tactical procedures.
One or two officers in West Memphis were killed several months ago during a minor (they assumed) traffic stop.

The father and son attackers jumped out and blasted away with at least one semi-auto AK clone, and the officers by their car right behind the attackers, totally unprepared, had no idea that the aggressors were out to 'zap' any LEOs, for the slightest reason. They were extreme anti-govt. types who had been under surveillance in Indiana or Ohio.

Their license plate seemed to have raised an alert as it was checked, but whether the officers were aware before they stepped from their patrol car and had no more safe cover, I have no idea.

The LEOs seem to have only returned fire with handguns, and the bag guys left and were finally stopped by the Walmart after an LEO in another car rammed into them, and the firefight killed the anarchists.

A coworker's husband is a detective in another eastern AR town, and one of the other patrol officers has his personal Mini 14 (.223) with a fancy sight.
Wouldn't you prefer a rifle which uses larger rounds, i.e. an AR-10 or PTR 91 ('G-3') in .308 etc, as larger rds. seem to punch better through windshields and car doors at shallow angles?
 
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There are a number of time LEO is seen 'hiding' behind the vehicles and clearly visibkle through the windows.

I saw the video from LAPD at Gunsite before it was available.

One of the instrucitrs wanted us to see it as an example if why you should have at least some experience with long range handgun shooting.

There were numerous opportunities fir a 50-60 yard head shot against a nearly stationary target.
The perps would stand and fire without moving.

The problem is without some training and practice such shots are VERY hard to make.
(The instructor's words, and he is a LEO instructor/trainer).
 
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