You are using an out of date browser. It may not display this or other websites correctly.
You should upgrade or use an alternative browser.
You should upgrade or use an alternative browser.
LEO's what is safe etiquette when stopped
- Thread starter Dusty Rivers
- Start date
I have made some stops when I was pretty "nervous." None, thank God, turned out to be the bad kind, and I never fired a shot "in line of duty", and only once ever drew a gun. But, I always left my prints just in case.
As for those carrying legally, I had no problem with that, though in this state (MD) legal carry is pretty rare, and not something I worried about. But a traffic stop is a very dangerous procedure for a LEO, so make sure you do NOTHING to cause the LEO to get nervous. And don't try to swap cop stories or talk about how good you are with a gun; that is not the way to make an already officer feel calm and secure.
Now, a comment that some might not like, but I get the distinct impression that most of the folks responding are white. If you think there is never a problem in interacting with a LEO, put on some black makeup and try interacting with a white LEO and see what happens. We like to pretend that a LEO will act the same regardless of the age and race of the person being stopped. Maybe some place, on some planet, but not in too many places in the U.S., like it or not. Even black LEO's know, or quickly learn (hopefully not the hard way), that some bad white guys hate cops and especially hate black cops, and vice versa.
P.S. The cop had radioed in the car and driver info and a partial description of the driver before he even approached the car. If the driver description didn't match the owner, dispatch already had that info before the cop even approached you. And the cop who looks like he stumbled and had to touch the car didn't stumble and isn't drunk.
Jim
As for those carrying legally, I had no problem with that, though in this state (MD) legal carry is pretty rare, and not something I worried about. But a traffic stop is a very dangerous procedure for a LEO, so make sure you do NOTHING to cause the LEO to get nervous. And don't try to swap cop stories or talk about how good you are with a gun; that is not the way to make an already officer feel calm and secure.
Now, a comment that some might not like, but I get the distinct impression that most of the folks responding are white. If you think there is never a problem in interacting with a LEO, put on some black makeup and try interacting with a white LEO and see what happens. We like to pretend that a LEO will act the same regardless of the age and race of the person being stopped. Maybe some place, on some planet, but not in too many places in the U.S., like it or not. Even black LEO's know, or quickly learn (hopefully not the hard way), that some bad white guys hate cops and especially hate black cops, and vice versa.
P.S. The cop had radioed in the car and driver info and a partial description of the driver before he even approached the car. If the driver description didn't match the owner, dispatch already had that info before the cop even approached you. And the cop who looks like he stumbled and had to touch the car didn't stumble and isn't drunk.
Jim
Old Bill Dibble
New member
I very rarely ask to see a permit. If the person appears intoxicated or I know them to have a criminal record then I will ask to see one. Certain other times when there is suspicious behavior also.
Some guys ask every time, everyone is a little different.
Some guys ask every time, everyone is a little different.
Now, a comment that some might not like, but I get the distinct impression that most of the folks responding are white. If you think there is never a problem in interacting with a LEO, put on some black makeup and try interacting with a white LEO and see what happens. We like to pretend that a LEO will act the same regardless of the age and race of the person being stopped. Maybe some place, on some planet, but not in too many places in the U.S., like it or not. Even black LEO's know, or quickly learn (hopefully not the hard way), that some bad white guys hate cops and especially hate black cops, and vice versa.
I can't speak on behalf of every LEO, but unless I am looking for somebody, skin color has nothing to do with the way I perceive a subject on a traffic stop. Some factors that DO affect the way I perceive things are: What kind of car are they driving? What condition is it in? How old are they? How many other people are in the car? How old are the other people? What part of town are we in? Where are they coming from? What tattoos do they have? What piercings do they have? Do they appear well kept/groomed? Is the inside of the car clean? What time is it? What information came back from running the plate? What smells are coming from inside of the vehicle? What is their attitude like? Do they seem overly nervous? Do they keep reaching around inside of the vehicle?
I am going to be alot more cautious of the group of 30 year old pulling out of a local drug filled motel at 2:30 am in a 1997 Suburban with mismatched parts and filled with random junk inside than I am going to be with a 45 year old pulling out of Walmart at 6:00 pm in a clean 2016 Corolla, regardless of their race.
When I was a teenager, I drove an open top Jeep Wrangler for a few years and was never pulled over. A little while later I ended up driving a 1994 Chevy S10 with a grill that covered the headlights and covered in small dents (I bought it that way). I got pulled over an average of 4 or 5 times a year driving the Chevy.
Cops don't build the criminal profile, criminals do that. Cops are just have to identify it
zincwarrior
New member
What does the age or condition of the vehicle have to do with it (assuming all appropriate points are legal)? This is not a criticism but a question on how that is a factor.
full disclosure: My wife drives a van that looks like she picked a fight with a rhino and lost, but has only been pulled over once-when a light was out.
That goes both ways. If I don't know the good cops from the bad cops how do I know which is which?
full disclosure: My wife drives a van that looks like she picked a fight with a rhino and lost, but has only been pulled over once-when a light was out.
shafer is correct.
I will add, when the sheep and the wolf look the same how do the cops know which is which? by their actions, but that is not know until contact is made
That goes both ways. If I don't know the good cops from the bad cops how do I know which is which?
Last edited:
That goes both ways. If I don't know the good cops from the bad cops how do I know which is which?
To me this is the biggest issue with groups. This is not a political statement against unions but many unions would be MUCH better off both in doing the job they are doing and in the eyes of the public if they would take an active role in identifying and removing the "bad apples" from their ranks. As it is the bad members and good members are all grouped together somehow and the bad rely on the image of the good while the good are brought down by the bad.
I look at it like the drug policy in MLB. That policy did not really become meaningful until the players who were following the rules demanded that their union not obstruct identification and removal of the bad apples.
Last edited:
Criminals do build profiles. Poverty, racism, violence, unemployment, lack of education, and drug abuse all are part of that. Living in a poor area increases the odds of being stopped. Being poor, driving vehicles that poor folks drive increase the risk of being profiled as a criminal or threat. Add being black to that list and the odds go way up. Being a member of the profiled group, whether guilty of anything illegal or not, often causes individuals to be treated less respect than I would be in the same situation.
Yes, profiling is a necessary fact of life. How is done is the real issue.
Yes, profiling is a necessary fact of life. How is done is the real issue.
Old Bill Dibble
New member
I can't speak on behalf of every LEO, but unless I am looking for somebody, skin color has nothing to do with the way I perceive a subject on a traffic stop.
Since I work nights these days I have to work to keep a straight face when I pull someone over who is black or Hispanic and then they tell me that the reason that I pulled them over was because they are black or Hispanic. Since I can't actually see who is driving most of the time at night there is no way I can tell what their skin color is. Doesn't happen much but it does happen.
Add being black to that list and the odds go way up.
Not where I work. The court of public opinion is currently upholding the presumption that any use of force by a white officer against a black man is motivated by pure racism and hatred. Thus many officers refuse to stop a black man for any civil infraction to avoid the possibility of becoming famous. After all, we work for the government and get paid either hourly or on salary. We get no commission on arrests or tickets. Why would we risk our lives, our freedom, our finances, and our reputation?
What does the age or condition of the vehicle have to do with it (assuming all appropriate points are legal)? This is not a criticism but a question on how that is a factor.
I could go on about these topics for days, but most of it's common sense. A car full of 20 year olds in a high drug area at 1:30am is not a good thing. A vehicle with every VIN bearing component changed is not a good thing. A vehicle with any of the locks popped out is not a good thing. An 85 year old driving 10 under and drifting is not a DUI, it's an 85 year old, etc.
That goes both ways. If I don't know the good cops from the bad cops how do I know which is which?
Refer to my earliest post. To the vast majority of people I come in contact with, I'm the nicest cop they've ever met. I've dropped several people off at jail and had them thank me for not treating them like garbage even though they had been arrested. I treat them with respect, and they reciprocate. But to a very small percentage, I'm "that cop". That "bad apple". The cop that got picked in high school and is now trying to make up for it. The cop that's on a power trip. The badge heavy, racist, shoulda-never-been-a-cop prick. And the reason they perceive me this way because I drew the lucky card of being the cop that had to force them to take accountability for a mistake they made when they otherwise refused to.
The public agenda is the feeling of entitlement.
You've repeated that sentiment more than once. As a member of the public you serve, I am offended by it. It is that sort of attitude that causes the issues being discussed. It cannot help but come through to the people you serve. I don't care how professional you think you are.
Not where I work. The court of public opinion is currently upholding the presumption that any use of force by a white officer against a black man is motivated by pure racism and hatred. Thus many officers refuse to stop a black man for any civil infraction to avoid the possibility of becoming famous. After all, we work for the government and get paid either hourly or on salary. We get no commission on arrests or tickets. Why would we risk our lives, our freedom, our finances, and our reputation?
I am not one of those who thinks any use lethal force against a black man is motivated by bigotry. In fact, I think just the opposite is true. I also think that sworn officers have the responsibility to protect and serve. That includes enforcing the law, and treating people with respect when possible. Denying that racism is an issue, whether blue or black is the biggest problem in all of this.
Last edited:
Old Bill Dibble
New member
KMAC - You kind of welded together two different posts that were made by different people two weeks apart. You might want to clarify that a bit.
Truth by told there is a public agenda of entitlement by many people. To deny the validity of this statement is an emotional disregard of a simple, easily demonstrable truth. People are constantly demanding things from their fellow citizens that they believe that they should have a right or privilege to in exchange for nothing. The governments at various levels is the medium of exchange for these entitlements.
Why you would take offense at such a truth is not evident. How this would effect an officer in the performance of his duties is also unclear. Everyone is entitled to police services.
I'll agree that racism is an issue. Of the people whom I have arrested that have killed others in the last year all openly hated the police and white people and made no secret of their feelings from posting on social media to the way they resisted arrest when taken in. Racism plays a much larger role in crime than we can account for.
On the police side a racist is a rare thing and tends not to last long. Nobody wants to work with someone who has an irrational hatred of certain people. Eventually they trip themselves up and are gotten rid of at the first opportunity.
From a leadership standpoint there is too much liability to be assumed. A civil rights suit is expensive and no one wants one. Getting rid of someone once hired is a difficult thing to do however. It requires evidence of wrong doing or violation of policy. Someone who is slick enough to get hired can hide out for a few years until they trip themselves up.
You've repeated that sentiment more than once. As a member of the public you serve, I am offended by it. It is that sort of attitude that causes the issues being discussed. It cannot help but come through to the people you serve. I don't care how professional you think you are.
Truth by told there is a public agenda of entitlement by many people. To deny the validity of this statement is an emotional disregard of a simple, easily demonstrable truth. People are constantly demanding things from their fellow citizens that they believe that they should have a right or privilege to in exchange for nothing. The governments at various levels is the medium of exchange for these entitlements.
Why you would take offense at such a truth is not evident. How this would effect an officer in the performance of his duties is also unclear. Everyone is entitled to police services.
Denying that racism is an issue, whether blue or black is the biggest problem in all of this.
I'll agree that racism is an issue. Of the people whom I have arrested that have killed others in the last year all openly hated the police and white people and made no secret of their feelings from posting on social media to the way they resisted arrest when taken in. Racism plays a much larger role in crime than we can account for.
On the police side a racist is a rare thing and tends not to last long. Nobody wants to work with someone who has an irrational hatred of certain people. Eventually they trip themselves up and are gotten rid of at the first opportunity.
From a leadership standpoint there is too much liability to be assumed. A civil rights suit is expensive and no one wants one. Getting rid of someone once hired is a difficult thing to do however. It requires evidence of wrong doing or violation of policy. Someone who is slick enough to get hired can hide out for a few years until they trip themselves up.
Old Bill Dibble, you are right that quoting two people in the same post risks painting both with the same brush. That was not my intention. I apologize and will be more careful in the future.
I will stand by my statements to both. 849ACSO has repeatedly made the statement that the public has an entitlement mentality. While this is true of many, "the public" includes millions of regular folks who are doing their best to be contributing members of society. A sworn officer that views everyone, or everyone in a particular race or economic class as part of the problem is in fact part of the problem. That view of those served is impossible to hide, and will show itself in every interaction with that group.
Bill, racism is systemic in our society. I do believe the worst offenders are weeded out in some departments, but there are places where that is not the case. Ferguson, Mo. is a good example of this. Micheal Brown attacked and tried to kill a police officer. His death, while tragic, was a result of his actions. The events that followed were in large part, a result of systemic unfair treatment of minorities for years by Ferguson police. Yes, it has given voice to bigots and criminals, but the underlying cause is racism.
Police officers and departments have a nearly impossible job, and I have great respect for many. That doesn't mean there isn't work to do, especially in urban areas. As long as there is such mistrust and prejudice on both sides we will continue to have trouble. When police or citizens are viewed as the enemy, violence will happen.
I will stand by my statements to both. 849ACSO has repeatedly made the statement that the public has an entitlement mentality. While this is true of many, "the public" includes millions of regular folks who are doing their best to be contributing members of society. A sworn officer that views everyone, or everyone in a particular race or economic class as part of the problem is in fact part of the problem. That view of those served is impossible to hide, and will show itself in every interaction with that group.
Bill, racism is systemic in our society. I do believe the worst offenders are weeded out in some departments, but there are places where that is not the case. Ferguson, Mo. is a good example of this. Micheal Brown attacked and tried to kill a police officer. His death, while tragic, was a result of his actions. The events that followed were in large part, a result of systemic unfair treatment of minorities for years by Ferguson police. Yes, it has given voice to bigots and criminals, but the underlying cause is racism.
Police officers and departments have a nearly impossible job, and I have great respect for many. That doesn't mean there isn't work to do, especially in urban areas. As long as there is such mistrust and prejudice on both sides we will continue to have trouble. When police or citizens are viewed as the enemy, violence will happen.
Last edited:
Denying that racism is an issue, whether blue or black is the biggest problem in all of this.
I agree with OBD on this issue wholeheartedly.
Something I'll add as an urban police officer. Every day in briefing we review a map of the region we police. The map is covered in dots that represent crimes, generally updated every week or so. Robberies, assaults, burglaries, vehicle thefts, domestic violence issues, etc. WE DO NOT CONTROL WHERE THESE DOTS LAND. However, the public we serve requests we perform high enforcement in these areas. It is beyond our control that the extremely speckled areas are ALWAYS poverty stricken areas, littered with budget motels, apartment complexes, group homes, and low income neighborhoods.
Myself and the officers I work with learned very early on in our careers from dealing with thousands of people that problems come in every color, religion, age, gender, and size. What identifies these people are the finer details that illustrate how they choose to live their lives, which leads back to the original topic.
The best way to have a safe and positive encounter with a police officer is to understand the job they are trying to do, and provide them with the same respect and courtesy you would like to receive. Spend a few minutes on the Officer Down Memorial Page, it may open some folk's eyes as to why police do the things they do during contacts.
The best way to have a safe and positive encounter with a police officer is to understand the job they are trying to do, and provide them with the same respect and courtesy you would like to receive. Spend a few minutes on the Officer Down Memorial Page, it may open some folk's eyes as to why police do the things they do during contacts.
No argument with you there. Let me ask you this: Are all of the people living in the areas covered in dots criminals? Isn't there a chance that many of them are just as concerned, or maybe more concerned about all the violence as you and your department? That maybe they are frightened, angry and frustrated too? Yes, many are angry at all cops and white folks in general. In the culture they live in that is the norm. And yes, many blame others for problems of their own making and expect someone else to take care of them.
The people that need the most help are often the most difficult to help. Treating them as the enemy doesn't work. We have to change the system. No one wins the way we are doing things now.
The ethical theory of reciprocity argues that if a police officer can make assumptions about the person he or she is interacting with based on the most egregious actions of the past based on any factor related to that individual that is not obviously criminal (race, income, place, etc) than an individual interacting with a police officer may also make assumptions about that officer based on the most egregious (and overly publicized) actions of other police officers.
The problem is such assumptions by either or both parties are much more likely to result in a negative outcome.
As police officers are (under)paid and trained professionals one can easily argue the duty is on that of the officer to act in a manner that overcomes those often false assumptions first in a good faith that such actions, over time, will be reciprocated
The problem is such assumptions by either or both parties are much more likely to result in a negative outcome.
As police officers are (under)paid and trained professionals one can easily argue the duty is on that of the officer to act in a manner that overcomes those often false assumptions first in a good faith that such actions, over time, will be reciprocated
Old Bill Dibble
New member
Isn't there a chance that many of them are just as concerned, or maybe more concerned about all the violence as you and your department? That maybe they are frightened, angry and frustrated too? Yes, many are angry at all cops and white folks in general. In the culture they live in that is the norm. And yes, many blame others for problems of their own making and expect someone else to take care of them.
I think you missed something in what Ton was saying.
Many of the people that live in the areas of high crime are just as sick of it as anyone and request higher levels of enforcement. Clearly everyone living in certain neighborhoods are not all criminals. The odds change based on where you are though.
The people that need the most help are often the most difficult to help. Treating them as the enemy doesn't work. We have to change the system. No one wins the way we are doing things now.
I am not sure what you mean by this? Are you trying to address universal commonalities in police work? There are very few of those. What is your metric for defining "winning"?
The ethical theory of reciprocity argues that if a police officer can make assumptions about the person he or she is interacting with based on the most egregious actions of the past based on any factor related to that individual that is not obviously criminal (race, income, place, etc) than an individual interacting with a police officer may also make assumptions about that officer based on the most egregious (and overly publicized) actions of other police officers.
I suppose that would be true if that were how police actually acted or were supposed to act. Treating people differently based on race is a civil rights violation. Police don't know how much a person makes based on a traffic stop or other casual contact. I am willing to posit you don't know for sure how much your closest friends make.
Being in a certain location, at a certain time could be an indicator that something is not right and that criminal activity is in progress or getting ready to start. A police officer is duty bound to stop crimes in progress or prevent them from occurring if he has the ability to do so. Legally that is one of the metrics the courts came up with to support the Terry Frisk.
As police officers are (under)paid and trained professionals one can easily argue the duty is on that of the officer to act in a manner that overcomes those often false assumptions first in a good faith that such actions, over time, will be reciprocated
I have zero expectations that any criminal will reciprocate the behavior that I display towards him. Most often when I arrest someone they are intoxicated on something. This effects their behavior significantly. When they are sober (much less often) they are normally much better behaved, but not always. To criminals I am the enemy and always will be.
When the person is an unknown quantity the way I behave is the same, professional, courteous and cautious. When I get frustrated I get more courteous. It usually helps to show how ridiculous or dramatic the other party is being.
zincwarrior
New member
Bill, I missed the post, but what is your opinion on the best etiquette? To the topic, what is the best thing to do?
Here in Florida, one is not required to inform an officer of carry status. We learned the hard way to keep our mouths shut after a couple of State Trooper tools held my wife at gun point in Clearwater after she informed them about a lawfully secure and encased pistol. Never again. If one of those horses patoots had accidentally shot her, I promise you that they would have laid the blame on her.
Are all of the people living in the areas covered in dots criminals? Isn't there a chance that many of them are just as concerned, or maybe more concerned about all the violence as you and your department?
OBD said all I can really say on this issue. The majority of the people in this area are good citizens who are tired of the crime and request higher enforcement.
I'll also add that a large percentage of the people who get arrested, especially for certain types of crimes are not "bad people" or "career criminals". They are people who have simply made a mistake. Intoxication is often a factor. On the other hand, when I make a stop, I really have NO idea what type of person I am dealing with regardless of what clues I can pick up on. So if this not so bad of a person has just been on copblock.com, has an issue with authority, and decides they are just going to leave after they have been stopped with jaywalking because they don't feel it was justified, it is going to be a pretty bad day for both of us.
The "problem" is that more and more Americans think we have a "problem", and view every officer as a potential predator. It's like fatal car accidents. They are going to happen EVERY day across the country. People will die. But most Americans don't approach every intersection like someone is going to run a red light and T bone them, even though on average two Americans are killed each day by red light runners, making it hundreds of times more likely than having a police officer commit a crime against you. We aren't calling for a traffic reform, burning down cities over every fatality, or having lengthy discussions on how to turn left at an intersection safely.
Yes, police are people, people are flawed, mistakes are made and WILL always be made. But of the high profile incidents, I can count on one hand the ones where I feel an indictment was appropriate, and of THOSE cases, the majority of them would not have happened had the victim not made some very, very poor decisions. The majority of the other cases are just a case of the public having no understanding of police procedure and wanting to be mad about something because they spend too much time reading stories on facebook.