Legal/Moral obligations for loaning a firearm

That's called a "Transfer", which is legally the same as a sale....

Willie
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I don't have the legal definition of a firearm Transfer, but "loaning" does not involve a monetary purchase. Again, loosely speaking if me and my roomate borrow each other's rifles (which we do quite often), is that also considered an illegal Transfer? Or if a LEO lends a handgun to a fellow LEO, is that also an illegal transfer? You tell me..

In addition each state's laws differ, so the OP will have to research his local laws. Ironically if you Google firearm transfer, you don't really find a consistent definition. But Wikipedia (obviously may not be the best resource) states

"Provided that all other laws are complied with, an individual may temporarily borrow or rent a firearm for lawful purposes throughout the United States."



I was going for satire there. A lot of folks act like this woman shouldn't have the right to defend herself and that nobody should give, loan, or sell her a gun because she is inexperienced.

Do posters here think a gun store shouldn't sell guns to someone who has never shot one before? If not, what's the difference in a friend loaning or giving her one?
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No, gun stores shouldn't sell firearms to someone who has never shot them before :rolleyes:

And for definition sake, loaning means you get it back. Giving it means you give it to them permanently. Whether you abide by the laws is another subject, but in my state there is no firearm registration and I can give or sell a firearm to a non-prohibited (meaning adult, non-felon) person without any implications .

Tough crowd here. I didn't mean give her a gun and walk away. Give her a little instruction also. Let your conscience be your guide.

I don't see very much open mindedness on this issue. You guys seem to be searching for rationalization of why not to help. That's a little disturbing on one level. If you leave a baby alone, it will die. Humans are social creatures and depend on each other for life.

Think back to when you personally needed help at some point in your life. Did you get some help? (I know you did). You're supposed to pass it on and help others. I'm not saying save the world, I'm not saying go looking for trouble. But when someone knocks on your door asking for help, one should try to help instead of looking for excuses not to, like many of you are.

"She hated guns before"
So what? Whats the point? This is an opportunity to help, teach someone. She was wrong before and so you slam the door in her face now? Poor show my friends. Where is your heart? Where is your willingness to help?

"...but it will be a weapon transfer..."
So what? So give her the gun. Will you really be so bad off with 19 guns now instead of the 20? Life is the most precious thing we have on this planet. You're not willing to take a hit for a few hundred bucks to help possibly save a life?

If you help her...yes, you might get splashed with mud in doing so. Don't let that stop you, it's the right thing to do. The OP knows this. This is why the reason for the question. Listen to your conscience.

"She might hurt herself on the gun you provided..."
(This is my favorite lame excuse). It lets you keep your precious gun, stay clear of the mud puddle, and lets you rationalize how you were willing to help, but will not. In fact, perhaps you can now say that you saved her life by not giving her a gun! Nevermind the fact that the biggest percentage of SD incidents are over at the display of a weapon with no shots fired. Nevermind that kids and elderly people previously uninitiated to weaponcraft, use guns to save themselves and their family everyday somewhere...

It's not my intent to make anyone angry with my words. But if what I have wrote touches a nerve, you have to ask yourself why? Is it because you know deep down inside that I am right about this?
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I tend to agree with this.
 
Buy a Hi-Point, put a bow on it, and give it to her as a gift, if she is that important to you.

If you had a motorcycle, no insurance, and a "friend" who knew nothing about motorcycles, would you loan that "friend" your motorcycle? If you had a wife....ehh, forget that one.

The bottom line: Friends don't loan friends their guns.
 
I don't have the legal definition of a firearm Transfer, but "loaning" does not involve a monetary purchase. Again, loosely speaking if me and my roomate borrow each other's rifles (which we do quite often), is that also considered an illegal Transfer? Or if a LEO lends a handgun to a fellow LEO, is that also an illegal transfer? You tell me..

In addition each state's laws differ, so the OP will have to research his local laws. Ironically if you Google firearm transfer, you don't really find a consistent definition. But Wikipedia (obviously may not be the best resource) states

"Provided that all other laws are complied with, an individual may temporarily borrow or rent a firearm for lawful purposes throughout the United States."
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I'm not sure what mechanism Law Enforcement uses but I'm sure they occupy a separate legal category. They generally don't even own their guns. They do a lot of things you can't :p


Again, it depends upon your state law. In most cases possesion=ownership and loan=gift=sale. You need to follow your state's laws regarding transfer of firearms (which may differ with regard to longarms and handguns). Immediate family is usually treated differently than unrelated persons.


If you and your friend are both FL residents who are not prohibited from owning firearms then you can transfer or "loan" firearms without going through an FFL. Like I said before, here in PA you could do it with a longarm and not a handgun. In a state like MD you would need to transfer through an FFL or State PD for either. Residents of different states most often need to go through an FFL (assuming the receiver isn't a C&R licensee, etc).
 
I agree with the above post. I had a copy of the state gun laws a few years back and it was thick as a phone book. A lot of these laws nobody ever heard of until something happens, then the books start coming out. What I mentioned earlier is called "Holding". If I would go back into business (Gunsmithing) I would legally need an FFL to keep guns in the building and have them properly tagged as to ownership. I believe this came about because of PFA's and people letting their buddies "Hold" their guns until court proceedings were done. It is a very vague situation with many shades of grey. I would avoid loaning guns, especially handguns.
 
Take her shopping with the target gun being a 20 ga pump/semi auto.

Buy from a gunshop that has a range and will give her an orientation as to the functioning of the gun. Stay out of it-she will be your friend next year. If you get involved your friends will be gone-she and the gun and perhaps all you own if she kills someone in the next apartment.
 
Don't loan her a gun.

I had a friend from work in a similar situation. Her estranged husband (at that time) had become a meth head and was in the wind. She felt he was following her to try and take more of her stuff, their son or hurt/kill them (he had threatened violence previously). It was confirmed when her truck that had been stolen was recovered and a friend of his had been driving it.

I gave her two options, either she could break her lease and move out or I was moving in....

That was years ago, she is now my wife and he is a distant bad memory. Just my story, sounds like you already have your lady. I guess more of a do as I suggest not as I do kinda thing.

With the police and her parents involved there is really nothing more you can do. At most make some suggestions like pepper spray or hornet/wasp spray. If you do more, like loan a gun, her parents or police may think you are interfering and get upset at you. Avoid that one and listen as a concerned friend and make suggestions.

Another thing to think about is your fiancée. Ladies can get jealous over things that you would never think they would. Not saying yours will, just saying I have seen/experienced it.
 
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I'm not sure what mechanism Law Enforcement uses but I'm sure they occupy a separate legal category. They generally don't even own their guns. They do a lot of things you can't


Again, it depends upon your state law. In most cases possesion=ownership and loan=gift=sale. You need to follow your state's laws regarding transfer of firearms (which may differ with regard to longarms and handguns). Immediate family is usually treated differently than unrelated persons.


If you and your friend are both FL residents who are not prohibited from owning firearms then you can transfer or "loan" firearms without going through an FFL. Like I said before, here in PA you could do it with a longarm and not a handgun. In a state like MD you would need to transfer through an FFL or State PD for either. Residents of different states most often need to go through an FFL (assuming the receiver isn't a C&R licensee, etc).
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Point taken.

Obviously LEO's can do many things civilians can't, but thats beside the point. This is a civilian to civilian, and we assume both parties are legally able to own a firearm. I guess the OP really needs to take a hard look at his local laws (even consult a lawyer) if he does choose to "loan" her a firearm.

In this case though, if it was a good friend of mine who was in dire need and immediate danger, I wouldn't have a problem with lending her one of mine. It would probably be best if she bought her own, of course; but it was stated pretty clear by the OP that her family is anti-gun so she is somewhat influenced in that way.
 
if she gets the gun she signs a bill of sale you can shred if she returns gun and that's bottom line. I wonder if she would sign it or if prenup denial would kick in?
 
If you had a motorcycle, no insurance, and a "friend" who knew nothing about motorcycles, would you loan that "friend" your motorcycle? If you had a wife....ehh, forget that one.
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Another bad analogy. Motorcycles are infinitely harder to operate than a gun. Motorcycles are a heck of a lot more dangerous than guns.

Women are plug and play sic. No, women are like Lee reloading equipment. You think it's low priced and easy but after you've taken the plunge and began, there's little frustrations and delays, and sometimes warranty returns! :p
 
It's been a few days.

If this was truly a priority to her she would have found a few hours to go to the range with you and learn by now. It seems this is not an avenue she is enthusiastic / serious about - assuming you have offered instruction. You cannot help someone who does not want to be helped.

Although this is firearm unrelated I applaud your concerns about what your fiancee / others would think. If the issue of you or her sleeping over was ambiguous enough for the members of this forum to feel a need to ask your intentions it will be for others in the future - for both you and your friend.

I am perplexed why there is not more family involved, or more friends. She needs to be her own proponent for security although asking and receiving assistance is fine. If she believes she is really in trouble, she needs to come to grips that something has to change in her thinking and lifestyle. We're talking survival here.
 
A classmate of mine apparently has a stalker
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Well now ask the former Bellevue Nebraska Chief about that, he is up on charges for "loaning" a handgun to a person didnt have a permit to purchase which it seems is needed in nebraska to be given, loaned, or sold any handgun. Check the local laws before you do anything might get you in deep water, Ol John retired instead of fighting, he is still going to court on the charge tho.
 
There is no way on earth I would loan a gun to someone in her situation. A hunting rifle for a hunt - maybe. Self defense? No way! It seems like a really bad idea.

Assist her in getting a concealed carry permit and purchasing a firearm of her own. Then take her shooting. It's up to her if she wants to exercise her 2nd Amendment rights.
 
my policy is I don't loan firearms. I value my friends, like I don't loan money to friends either. Now my lawn mower or drill different story. Take her shopping to purchase her own gun, or help buy a tazer or pepper spray. Her her make her home safer,self defense classes. A gun is not going to make her safer, how would you feel in this idiot were to get in her house and use your gun on her. Using a gun means training in how to use it, in a defensive way and under stress. These things take time to learn. I know that when you need a cop there is a time lag in their getting to where you are. It's feel like a catch -22.
 
The best thing you can do to help someone is teach them to help themselves. If she is really scared she won't lose time going to the gunshop. Some girls are crazy in a real low-down sneaky way. Since you are like me and don't want to go stay over her house or anything I would really watch my step. I admire the desire to help but be careful. This could bite you back in so many ways.
 
The conclusion

I've been working doubles last week and haven't had a chance to actually sit down and write something. As it turns out, this matter resolved itself last week.

I'll try to find an online news article on what happened and link it here, but until then I will give those interested the short version.

I decided NOT to lend the lady in question a firearm, for reasons I will go into later. Instead, I arranged to her to stay with a good friend and mentor of mine, a retired doctor, for the weekend. The gentleman and his wife live on a good size ranch, complete with fences, an assortment of dogs, excellent security and a very fine collection of guns. It's amazing what a grandfather-figure can do, the kindly gentleman somehow convinced her to try shooting a revolver with .38 special wadcutters for the first time (more on that later).

While she was away, the cops staked out her place, and on Sunday night (the 15th), they tailed and attempted to pull over a suspicious car that was lurking in the neighborhood. It led to a short chase that ended in the bad-guy's car hitting a tree. When officers approached the vehicle, the fellow in question sadly ended his own life with a handgun of some sort.

The good news is, my friend is safe and living her life again. Thank you all for your comments and advice, this is a great community to be a part of :)
 
In this case I decided NOT to lend a firearm, however, just for future reference I would like to point out that in reality, training really isn't a matter of huge importance when it comes to self defense involving a firearm.

Now before my tongue is cut out for blasphemy, let me say this. Many, many, many, and probably the majority of successful self-defense situations involving firearms are done by people with little to no training. People who only know where to load the "bullets" and which end gets pointed at the bad guy. Is it ideal? No. But life rarely is.

Here is what I consider to be important when considering the loan or recommendation of a defensive tool.

In order of importance:

1. The will to use the firearm.

2. Ability to apply safety principles to the firearm.

3. Training.


The reason I put them in that order is because, as some of you pointed out, without the will to use the firearm, it is practically worthless and may even be used against you. Safety comes second, because again, for some people, THEY are the greatest threat to themselves. Training IS important, but not as important as the first two.

Firearms are really NOT that complicated, and at self-defense distances they are as easy to operate as a remote (bad example, but you get what I'm saying). Most people are not firearms enthusiasts, and will not or cannot shoot even once a week.

There is obviously more to consider than that when lending a firearm, and it is not something I would ever do lightly. If I am wrong in any way, please tell me :D
 
Glad to hear that this bad situation has been resolved. I was worried about this gal, from what you described the stalker was a dangerous man.

I still think it is unwise to lend guns to others, regardless. Hopefully your friend has now gotten over some of her prejudice against firearms, and will seek to learn more about them as a result of this experience.

Thanks for the update.
 
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