Legal/Moral obligations for loaning a firearm

Nobody should own or possess a gun unless: (1) they pass a written test showing they understand the rules of gun safety and the law on defense (2) they demonstrate safe and proficient use of a gun at the range, and (3) they are able to field strip and clean the gun. That, of course, requires certified instructors verifying the training and testing and a reasonable fee to process the paperwork. Together, that shouldn't cost more than $500 to $600. Until then, nobody should have the right to use a firearm to defend themselves from stalkers, rapists, robbers, and others of that ilk. After all, the so called "right" to keep and bear arms in the Second Amendment is subject to reasonable regulation and insuring safety and proficiency is certainly reasonable. :rolleyes:

Go over the rules of safety with her and insist she go to the range at least once and fire a mag full or two. Then loan her the gun if you are otherwise inclined to do so. She's an adult and can make her own decisions.
 
Personally, I would not loan her a firearm. Let her take a course, and buy her own. You would put yourself in the middle of a bad situation.

Jerry
 
Nobody should own or possess a gun unless: (1) they pass a written test showing they understand the rules of gun safety and the law on defense (2) they demonstrate safe and proficient use of a gun at the range, and (3) they are able to field strip and clean the gun. That, of course, requires certified instructors verifying the training and testing and a reasonable fee to process the paperwork. Together, that shouldn't cost more than $500 to $600. Until then, nobody should have the right to use a firearm to defend themselves from stalkers, rapists, robbers, and others of that ilk. After all, the so called "right" to keep and bear arms in the Second Amendment is subject to reasonable regulation and insuring safety and proficiency is certainly reasonable
Click to expand...

Quite a bit strict suggestion there.

Owning a gun shouldn't be that hard IMHO, to the point where you have to jump hoops (glad I don't live in CA or IL! ). A good quick lesson on firearm safety and local laws should suffice, esp if the person's life is in immediate danger like the OP described.

Field stripping and cleaning a revolver isn't as hard, and its operation is quite simple. The OP's friend should definitely take training and some range time.

I can't say too much about 'loaning' a firearm. Is a dad lending a firearm to a son (adult) illegal? Or 2 hunting/competition shooting buddies lending each other firearms against the law? I don't know -- that depends on your local laws. I speculate it happens quite often without negative consequences .

As long as the person borrowing is not a prohibited person, I don't see the issue. At least for the time being when the need is real and the threat is immediate. If "loaning" a firearm to someone, using a written/signed document stating the fact should cover both parties, No?

should the OP really loan a firearm to the female friend.. well that is something he should probably consult a lawyer if he was that worried. If that was me, I don't have a problem helping a friend if it saves their life.
 
As long as the person borrowing is not a prohibited person, I don't see the issue. At least for the time being when the need is real and the threat is immediate. If "loaning" a firearm to someone, using a written/signed document stating the fact should cover both parties, No?


That's called a "Transfer", which is legally the same as a sale....

Willie


.
 
You can't be responsible for everyone. There are too many people in this world who need help/protection. Some you just have to let figure it out on their own.
Click to expand...

that's what Batman is for

THere are non-firearm defense options. They may not be as effective, but they are less dangerous if mishandled also.
Click to expand...

I was going to suggest bear spray or the heavy duty spray that riot cops use
 
Title says it all.
Click to expand...

Here's the twist.
Click to expand...

Well, I guess the title didn't say it all afterall. However, you have no legal or moral obligation to loan another person a gun, especially when the person is not skilled in its handling. In fact, you might be moraly obligated to not loan the gun to a person who doesn't know how to handle it.
 
However, you have no legal or moral obligation to loan another person a gun, especially when the person is not skilled in its handling. In fact, you might be morally obligated to not loan the gun to a person who doesn't know how to handle it
Click to expand...

+1 to the above. Given this gal's attitudes towards guns in the first place, I wouldn't lend her one of mine. It might end up being used against her if she doesn't have the will to use it.

I would help her find one of her own and get some training as soon as possible if she really has changed her mind about gun ownership.

In the meantime, I might consider staying with her or having her move into a spare room until the cops can catch this psycho.
 
Given this gal's attitudes towards guns in the first place, I wouldn't lend her one of mine. It might end up being used against her if she doesn't have the will to use it.
Click to expand...

you have no legal or moral obligation to loan another person a gun, especially when the person is not skilled in its handling. In fact, you might be moraly obligated to not loan the gun to a person who doesn't know how to handle it.
Click to expand...

I think this goes without saying, however, I do think if he has the ability to help her (minus the lending of a firearm part) he is morally obligated to do so. to tout apathy and do nothing is even worse imo
 
Obviously she has literally no firearms knowledge or experience.
Click to expand...

Tough crowd here. I didn't mean give her a gun and walk away. Give her a little instruction also. Let your conscience be your guide.

I don't see very much open mindedness on this issue. You guys seem to be searching for rationalization of why not to help. That's a little disturbing on one level. If you leave a baby alone, it will die. Humans are social creatures and depend on each other for life.

Think back to when you personally needed help at some point in your life. Did you get some help? (I know you did). You're supposed to pass it on and help others. I'm not saying save the world, I'm not saying go looking for trouble. But when someone knocks on your door asking for help, one should try to help instead of looking for excuses not to, like many of you are.

"She hated guns before"
So what? Whats the point? This is an opportunity to help, teach someone. She was wrong before and so you slam the door in her face now? Poor show my friends. Where is your heart? Where is your willingness to help?

"...but it will be a weapon transfer..."
So what? So give her the gun. Will you really be so bad off with 19 guns now instead of the 20? Life is the most precious thing we have on this planet. You're not willing to take a hit for a few hundred bucks to help possibly save a life?

If you help her...yes, you might get splashed with mud in doing so. Don't let that stop you, it's the right thing to do. The OP knows this. This is why the reason for the question. Listen to your conscience.

"She might hurt herself on the gun you provided..."
(This is my favorite lame excuse). It lets you keep your precious gun, stay clear of the mud puddle, and lets you rationalize how you were willing to help, but will not. In fact, perhaps you can now say that you saved her life by not giving her a gun! Nevermind the fact that the biggest percentage of SD incidents are over at the display of a weapon with no shots fired. Nevermind that kids and elderly people previously uninitiated to weaponcraft, use guns to save themselves and their family everyday somewhere...

It's not my intent to make anyone angry with my words. But if what I have wrote touches a nerve, you have to ask yourself why? Is it because you know deep down inside that I am right about this?
 
if he has the ability to help her (minus the lending of a firearm part) he is morally obligated to do so
Click to expand...

Absolutely! It would be so, so wrong to do nothing to help her. At the same time, the OP has an obligation to look out for his own interests as well.
 
Do not loan her a gun.

Buy her a few cans off wasp/hornet spray. Works very similar to pepper spray, it can give her those few precious seconds to get away.
Place a few around the house (providing she doesn't have little kids running around) Ex-one by the bed, one by the front and side doors etc.
 
So why doesn't the victim of the stalker (or her family) hire a bodyguard? Are there no security/protection agencies in the area? It sure sounds like the threat is real enough for such measures.
 
if he has the ability to help her (minus the lending of a firearm part) he is morally obligated to do so
Click to expand...

Absolutely! It would be so, so wrong to do nothing to help her. At the same time, the OP has an obligation to look out for his own interests as well.
Click to expand...

I certainly do not feel inclined to become involved in such matters unless I actually know the facts of the case. I have seen more than one female be less than honest in soliciting help when trying to get a guy to stop annoying her. I would want to see the retraining order and the arrest report.

I had a guy friend ask to park his car in my garage because of thieves he said who had tried to take it, so he wanted to hide it. The "thieves" turned out to be repo guys.

One thing I have noticed about a lot of poeple who feel like their lives are in danger is that they often want a quick fix with the least amount of change to their normal routine. If they don't own guns or other weapons already, then you can bet that they likely aren't active in martial arts training either. The don't limit their activities to reduce exposure. The don't increase home security with proper locks, buy alarm systems, etc. They just want the problem to go away and then to get back to their own carefree world. In other words, they don't feel morally obligated to take care of themselves a priori and so I don't feel morally obligated to take care of them a posteriori. Doing so means assuming quite a bit of risk that the person who feels endangered isn't willing to undertake themselves.
 
Depending on what state you reside you may be illegally transferring a firearm.

A "loan" would be the same as a transfer and all laws applicable for a transfer would apply. For instance, here in PA all handguns MUST be transferred through an FFL. Long arms can be transfers face to face between two legal PA residents only.


Find out what the transfer laws in your state are before you two inadvertantly commit a felony.



Or just do the pepper spray and call it a day.
 
I certainly do not feel inclined to become involved in such matters unless I actually know the facts of the case. I have seen more than one female be less than honest in soliciting help when trying to get a guy to stop annoying her. I would want to see the retraining order and the arrest report.
Click to expand...

i'm pretty sure the OP mentioned that he spoke with the police when they were at his classmate's house. you're right, he should get the facts of the case before deciding what to do but I don't think he should sit and do nothing either.
 
i always recommend an ABC dry chemical fire extinguisher. They are good to 20 feet and will blind/disable an attacker.

"Now for the rest of the story".(Paul Harvey)

I have routinely loaned pistols to friends. I am unsure wither I will continue this Practice.

A female friend of my wife, and ex air farce Security Policeman, was forced to stay in her house in the Phoenix area. The house had experienced break ins. She asked to borrow a pistol. As I knew that she was proficient, I loaned her the only reliable one which was available at the time.

Needles to say she experienced a break-in. The guy attacked her, beat her severely until she was able to retrieve my Colt 25 acp baby browning. Despite, AZ's gun owner protection laws, Sheriff Babeu's deputies confiscated the pistol and charged her with assault, endangering a minor and numerous other charges. Only after the incident was concluded did she learn that her attacker was her son.

$10,000 later the charges have been reduced to disturbing the peace. Her attorney assures me that I will get the pistol back. Given Babeu's record of loosing guns from his evidence vault i am not holding my breath to see if I will get it back.

Even if I loose the pistol I remain thankful that my wife's friend life was spared.
 
Last edited:
i'm pretty sure the OP mentioned that he spoke with the police when they were at his classmate's house. you're right, he should get the facts of the case before deciding what to do but I don't think he should sit and do nothing either.
Click to expand...

Right, but knowing all the facts first from actual records is much better than showing up to see the vandalized car and having the girl think it is the stalker. There are far too many squirrely things out there to get involved in somebody else's fight who apparently has an ongoing problem and isn't actually fixing it herself or taking proper defensive measures.

Even if all true, it is obviously a very messed up domestic issue.

As noted, the father is a lawyer for the Brady bunch. That means it probably lives in high cotton. Somebody already suggested this, but it sounds like they are more than financially well off to hire security for their daughter.

The notion of going over to stay at her house to help protect her seems like a really bad idea. The stalker apparently knows where she lives. Putting yourself in a location where you can expect an attack to occur is a way to help assure that you will be in a fight if it happens and hence endangered. Unless you want to fight the guy, you should not be at the girl's apartment.

Contrary to all the pro-gun and he-man protection comments, if you are going to be involved in the woman's defense, the best defense is to not be where the guy may attack. Y'all will smile nicely from the hotel room(s) 20 miles outside of town as you watch the morning news where somebody threw molotov cocktails through the windows of her apparently or did a drive by shooting of the residence. If he knows where she is, he can hurt her which means he can hurt you as well and he isn't likely to challenge you to a duel. He is more likely to ambush at a point when you won't expect it and fending off an ambush is not a favorable defensive situation.

Radioshack has neat gadgets. I don't believe a single one of them will stop an attacker. They will make some noise and turn on lights, but if the guy is mental, it may just make it more exciting for him.
 
Quote:
Nobody should own or possess a gun unless: (1) they pass a written test showing they understand the rules of gun safety and the law on defense (2) they demonstrate safe and proficient use of a gun at the range, and (3) they are able to field strip and clean the gun. That, of course, requires certified instructors verifying the training and testing and a reasonable fee to process the paperwork. Together, that shouldn't cost more than $500 to $600. Until then, nobody should have the right to use a firearm to defend themselves from stalkers, rapists, robbers, and others of that ilk. After all, the so called "right" to keep and bear arms in the Second Amendment is subject to reasonable regulation and insuring safety and proficiency is certainly reasonable
Click to expand...
Quite a bit strict suggestion there.
Click to expand...
I was going for satire there. A lot of folks act like this woman shouldn't have the right to defend herself and that nobody should give, loan, or sell her a gun because she is inexperienced.

Do posters here think a gun store shouldn't sell guns to someone who has never shot one before? If not, what's the difference in a friend loaning or giving her one?
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top