LCP defense ammo?

Heh not good performance for the MHP in that Paul Harrell video, and he had a couple of malfs as well. Thought Norma was supposed to be a good brand. At least it was cheap.
 
Critical Defense is the only expanding .380 ammo I have found that will penetrate more than 8 inches or so.

Tests with it in gel have shown 11 to 12 inches of penetration with expansion through 4 layers of denim.

I carry a 9mm with +P HST. If for some reason I had to go to a .380, Critical Defense would be my choice for ammo.
 
I love these "How many angels can dance on the head of a pin" threads. They are so entertaining.

But since the outcome yardtick in an actual self-defense encounter is generally shot placement/hits in critical zone, you'd probably be better served heading over to the range and burning a few boxes of much less expensive ammo...
 
WmMunny said:
I love these "How many angels can dance on the head of a pin" threads. They are so entertaining.

But since the outcome yardtick in an actual self-defense encounter is generally shot placement/hits in critical zone, you'd probably be better served heading over to the range and burning a few boxes of much less expensive ammo...
Click to expand...


Or you can test the JHP for function, then train mostly with FMJ, and carry the JHP, like most people I know do. I don’t think anyone on this thread is advocating for people to shoot JHP exclusively.
 
9mm HST reaches 18" in gel. After 20 years, I'd think we'd have heard HST is over penetrating.

I think the point that gel and human don't equate to equal distance is exactly right.

I'm advocating for DEEP, but it's still within 2" of penetration of Hornady. I bet DEEP expands more reliably looking at the bullet, but if expanded, those perfectly fine numbers for FBI or not.

Even the "civilian" marketed 9mm Federal Punch that uses a cheaper crappier lead but same copper jacket as HST is only reaching 14" in gel but fully expanded. That's only 2-4" off the HST gel tests.
 
A Navy Mk.2/USMC "Ka-Bar" fighting knife and current M9 Bayonet have a 7" blade.

The M3 Fighting knife and M4-M7 Bayonet have a 6-3/4" blade.

... because that length will reach the vitals.




Red
 
Red Devil said:
A Navy Mk.2/USMC "Ka-Bar" fighting knife and current M9 Bayonet have a 7" blade.

The M3 Fighting knife and M4-M7 Bayonet have a 6-3/4" blade.

... because that length will reach the vitals.




Red
Click to expand...
Or, perhaps, its because longer knives and bayonets were not practical in the field. And because they were bending barrels. Thus the military profile barrel with the thicker front portion.

Dont forget to look at historical bayonets. Many were 12in or longer.
 
Shadow9mm said:
Or, perhaps, its because longer knives and bayonets were not practical in the field. And because they were bending barrels. Thus the military profile barrel with the thicker front portion.

Dont forget to look at historical bayonets. Many were 12in or longer.
Click to expand...

So, it's your contention that, for the past Eighty(80) years, the US Military, through Three wars and several major conflicts, has been fielding fighting knives and bayonets to the troops in the field and in harm's way...

... that were spec'ed for practicality and barrel bending... and not deadly combat with a determined enemy?


Fascinating.

You should look into that more.




Red.
 
Red Devil said:
So, it's your contention that, for the past Eighty(80) years, the US Military, through Three wars and several major conflicts, has been fielding fighting knives and bayonets to the troops in the field and in harm's way...

... that were spec'ed for practicality and barrel bending... and not deadly combat with a determined enemy?


Fascinating.

You should look into that more.




Red.
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No its my contention that bayonets, for all practical purposes, have been obsolete for some time due to modern weapons development. And that the military designed a utility and fighting knife that could also be used as a bayonet as that only has to do with the design of the guard and locking mechanism in the handle.

To be honest I find the idea of comparing bayonets to bullets in relation to penetration seems to be apples to oranges. Bullets and sharp object function in very different ways. But while we are down this road, if we are to look at this, we should be looking at the time periods where bayonets were in common use as bayonets. For example the 18th to 19th century, in which they were in the 14 to 20 inch range. https://worldbayonets.com/Bayonet_Identification_Guide/United_States__19th_Century_/us_19th_century_2.html#:~:text=The%20standard%20socket%20bayonet%20used,lengthened%20by%202%2F10%20in. Which is fairly in line the the FBI current standard of 12-18 inches of penetration.
 
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I carry ball in all my autoloaders. Reliability is number one, then shot placement then penetration. Ball does all this well and you don't need it juiced up to go through your target so you can fire faster and poke more holes.
 
Super Sneaky Steve said:
I carry ball in all my autoloaders. Reliability is number one, then shot placement then penetration. Ball does all this well and you don't need it juiced up to go through your target so you can fire faster and poke more holes.
Click to expand...
had not thought about ball from that aspect. you can reduce recoil while retaining penetration.
 
You know, I've never heard that FMJ deforms or vaporizes on a target. Therefore, hardcast can't penetrate deeper than a standard copper FMJ as the density didn't change the shape...
 
Great read on why flat point meplat only matters on large caliber rifle rounds at 500gr and only a rifle level velocity which even the hottest 380 isn't even at half at.
http://www.gsgroup.co.za/articlepvdw.html


Then, even if meplat mattered in small calibers, which they appear not to, too much of that flatness decreases penetration. This makes sense. Drag either through increased resistance by shape or (strangely, speed) kills penetration. It's why a super hot Gold Dot might not actually be as good as a factory loaded Gold Dot. Drag increases faster than velocity. Cross sectional size increases drag. Drag can't be assumed to be positive or doing anything "better."

https://www.africahunting.com/threa...-nose-solids-what-are-the-actual-facts.57387/


If you still like it though, white box flat point 380 is certainly cheaper than a special one off by BB.

I don't disagree with someone choosing FMJ for their feeding issues, but JHP for 380 out of an LCP is reaching 9mm JHP performance and no one is advocating for using FMJ instead of JHP in 9mm.
 
wild cat mccane said:
Great read on why flat point meplat only matters on large caliber rifle rounds at 500gr and only a rifle level velocity which even the hottest 380 isn't even at half at.
http://www.gsgroup.co.za/articlepvdw.html


Then, even if meplat mattered in small calibers, which they appear not to, too much of that flatness decreases penetration. This makes sense. Drag either through increased resistance by shape or (strangely, speed) kills penetration. It's why a super hot Gold Dot might not actually be as good as a factory loaded Gold Dot. Drag increases faster than velocity. Cross sectional size increases drag. Drag can't be assumed to be positive or doing anything "better."

https://www.africahunting.com/threa...-nose-solids-what-are-the-actual-facts.57387/


If you still like it though, white box flat point 380 is certainly cheaper than a special one off by BB.

I don't disagree with someone choosing FMJ for their feeding issues, but JHP for 380 out of an LCP is reaching 9mm JHP performance and no one is advocating for using FMJ instead of JHP in 9mm.
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My friend had hunting experience with wide flat meplates related to hunting. Mainly using 44spl loads in a rifle at around 1300fps. Cuts an inch and a half diameter hole in one side and out the other of a deer. We also tested these loads against 240g xtp bullets in ballistics gel. While the hollow point provided a larger initial cavity it tapered off. While the wide flat nose punched a wide cavity, larger in total size in one side and out the other.

I have also tested in 9mm, 124g gold dots and hst vs an odd 70g federal frangible flat point at 1500fps(i chronoed it) in gel. The 70g held together and created a wicked cavity.

I have also done some testing with 38spl and 357 mag with wide flat nose bullets. What i found is that they seemed to excell in 357 mag, but under perform in the 38spl. It was somewhere around the 1200fps range. Still more tested to do, its on one of my project lists somewhere.

Based on my friends experience, and my testing i believe wide flat meplates, even in smaller diameter projectiles of the .355 petsussion, in the low supersonic range, punch far above what they should in performance.
 
I don't think flat FMJ is the recommended defense anywhere for any circumstance.

For example, all 40 S&W FMJ, typically is greater than any 38spl speed, and is all flat point. Gold Dot is the standard in 40 for all agency use.

True on 38spl to what you say for wadcutter not working. It is the worst looking stuff on luckygunner:


https://www.luckygunner.com/38spl-winchester-super-match-148gr-wc-50#geltest


https://www.luckygunner.com/38-spec...utter-hp-winchester-super-x-50-rounds#geltest

Not being rude with you, but I don't think you and your friend proved 357mag in wadcutter is more effective than JHP.
 
wild cat mccane said:
I don't think flat FMJ is the recommended defense anywhere for any circumstance.

For example, all 40 S&W FMJ, typically is greater than any 38spl speed, and is all flat point. Gold Dot is the standard in 40 for all agency use.

True on 38spl to what you say for wadcutter not working. It is the worst looking stuff on luckygunner:


https://www.luckygunner.com/38spl-winchester-super-match-148gr-wc-50#geltest


https://www.luckygunner.com/38-spec...utter-hp-winchester-super-x-50-rounds#geltest

Not being rude with you, but I don't think you and your friend proved 357mag in wadcutter is more effective than JHP.
Click to expand...
I was planning to melt my gel block back down next week for some testing. I will try and put the 357s back through the block again and get some pics for you. I would not have believed it had i not done it myself, no offense taken.
 
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