LCP defense ammo?

So very true that it is real :)

Just that a US marketed ammo tested with an nonexistent 6" barrel is a bit "imagined" as they do market it with a number that isn't clearly stated as 6".
 
So very true that it is real :)

Just that a US marketed ammo tested with an nonexistent 6" barrel is a bit "imagined" as they do market it with a number that isn't clearly stated as 6".


For the Norma ammunition boxes I’ve seen the barrel length corresponding to the velocity is generally on the package, at least the red box stuff. You were able to find it out on the website. The information is there, they just don’t portray it prominently. At some level there is some onus on the user to know what barrel length was used for the corresponding velocity. I have Federal ammunition in 9mm with advertised velocities corresponding to barrel lengths longer than I am using, I just keep that in my mind. I do agree though that a 6” barrel on a 380 ACP is silly and/or misleading.

When it comes to 380 ACP what barrel lengths do other manufacturers use? I don’t know as I don’t carry a 380.

https://le.vistaoutdoor.com/ammunition/federal/handgun/details.aspx?id=558
https://le.vistaoutdoor.com/ammunition/speer/handgun/details.aspx?id=53606

At least for these two loads looks like a 3.75" test barrel, certainly far more reasonable.
 
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I understand the FBI standard is not the end all be all. And that gel is not an actual simulation for the human body. but it is a good way to compare and measure the performance between rounds. And I personally feel their standard of 12 to 18 in of penetration in gel after going through 4 layers of denim to get adequate penetration on vitals is applicable for real world use.

Heres a test of both the Norma MHP and a barnes Tac-x. Keep in mind the test was not done with denim or fabric but on bare gel. Both under penetrated imho. at about 8.5in for the barnes and 9.5 in for the norma. However the MHP failed to fully expand.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9iKxSfykdR0

The Hornady critical defense, through denim made it 11.25 in, with denim. So it also under penetrate. Guess I remembered wrong, though it did better. but it did reliably expand.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-H9M6cZGd18

Here is a comparison of the lehigh extreme defenders to the federal HST. The lehighs came in over the 12in goal. whereas the HST came in at about 9in.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-H9M6cZGd18

Federal Punch 380 out of a LCP looks lackluster. Failed to expand going through denhim. met the penetration standards though while acting as a FMJ.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uxyCpwJs_h4

Federal hydra shock deep may be a good option if you can find some. although i will say I was unable to find testing with denim the bare gel testing looks promising. but it could clog on clothing too. hard to say.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ec-wJhj64UY

I have found with 380 you run into 1 of 2 issues with hollow points no matter which way you turn. you run into issues of failures to expand. in which case it acts like fmj and penetrates properly. Or you run into issues where it expands as designed, and under penetrates. This is one reason many people consider the 380 to be inadequate for self defense. I personally think it is adequate given proper bullet selection and understanding of its capabilities.


When I had a 380, I ran critical defense. It was the only round I trusted to reliably expand and penetrate as close to 12in as possible, even though it does come in 3/4in short. And it is reasonably priced as far as defensive ammo goes.

I have since gone to 9mm as there are lots of options that perform well and meet the fbi standards without difficulty.

In the end its not a decision myself or anyone else can make for you. But I would urge you to do some research and find the best option, not just grab something off the shelf.
 
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I have seen tests of the MHP in 9mm and I wasn’t overly impressed. I wouldn’t be surprised if the 380 ACP performance of the same design wasn’t perhaps the best.
 
An "underpenetrating" round that only goes in 8" into the body cavity is entirely sufficient if it does what it's supposed to do.

Most people stop what they are doing if someone points a gun at them. If not, most of the rest stop when they get shot-no one wants to get shot again.

Even if you shoot someone with FMJ, as long as the round hits a vital spot, they will go down. If the hit is not in a vital spot and they actually don't mind being shot again, I doubt if a hollow point would make any difference.

That said, I try to carry expanding ammunition when I can.
 
An "underpenetrating" round that only goes in 8" into the body cavity is entirely sufficient if it does what it's supposed to do. Projectiles are designed to penetrate and cause damage. Were not talking rubber bullets and bean bags designed to cause somone to re-thimk their decision.

Most people stop what they are doing if someone points a gun at them. If not, most of the rest stop when they get shot-no one wants to get shot again.

Even if you shoot someone with FMJ, as long as the round hits a vital spot, they will go down. If the hit is not in a vital spot and they actually don't mind being shot again, I doubt if a hollow point would make any difference.

That said, I try to carry expanding ammunition when I can.
Huh? If a round under penetrates, by definition it did NOT do what it was supposed to do. Do they have a psychological component yes. Should we be depending on that to stop a threat, no.

Most people are not a threat and we should not be counting on a threat to act like most people.
 
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Just from my own perspective, I don't try to boot-strap my LCP's into anything other then the 'minimum adequate' .380ACP's they are.

Personally, I also don't look to hold the ammo I use in my .380 retirement weapons up to the same standards represented in the FBI testing protocols for duty ammunition. I only carry them for lower/reduced threat risk assessment conditions, anyway. I recognize their inherent reduced 'performance' potential.

I still remember the brief discussion I had with Gary Roberts some years ago, when we met on an agency range. I respect his opinions, but I don't necessarily always share all of them. (Not uncommon within the LE training field, as not everyone always agrees with everyone else. :) )

I remember the look on Mas' face when he asked what I was carrying when I met him for dinner one day, and I answered an LCP. :D My comment was more or less that it matters where you put the hits, and I didn't feel like belting on a bigger gun that day. He politely chuckled. ;)

I think I only have a single 50rd box of the Winchester .380 T-Series left over from when I bought some when I retired. Nowadays I generally use either Rem 102gr BJHP or Speer 90gr GDHP. They feed fine in my LCP's. They shoot well for POA/POI out of my pair of LCP's, in my hands. If they deform or expand? Well, there's virtually always a trade off of one sort or another to be found in the world of practical ballistics. ;)

Basically, suit yourself. Not everyone is always going to agree with everyone else. At my former agency we eventually put into policy that the smallest caliber weapon authorized for on-duty use as a backup, or for off-duty, was a .380ACP ... and only JHP's were authorized. (The .25 & .32 aficionados were not pleased.)

FWIW, it might be interesting to see how/if the policy has changed due to the introduction of .30 Super Carry, as that smaller caliber seems to rest on a "ballistic capability" ladder rung between .380 and 9mm (albeit closer to 9mm).

Life goes on.
 
My agency has a list of approved firearms brands, approved cartridges, only HP ammo, and specific bullet weights by cartridge, so nothing crazy light or crazy heavy.

My philosophy is simply. I prefer to have reason for and behind the things I do and choices I make. I have no problem explaining those reasons. Or listening to other peoples reasons, that is how we learn.

I feel the 380 is a capable cartridge, but based on the standards I expect it to meet, or at least get awful close to, bullet selection is paramount. I know everyone does not feel the need for those standards, and I don't expect them to. But if one is looking to select a bullet in 380 for defensive use, and it can meet those standards, all the better.
 
Thanks again for all the info. Some serious knowledge here. From posts above it sounds like Norma velocity on the box is exaggerated. So might not blow the slide off the LCP as I feared.
 
Vista's white paper on the DEEP line including 380

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct...ined_FNL.pdf&usg=AOvVaw3IDIFed1AaLbxBneLsmzu2

Grr. I hate linking like that.
Yeah, they're doing exactly the right thing, for a .380 HP. Design for reliable but lesser total expansion diameter. Then the bullet doesn't deploy as large of a "drag chute" that works against penetration.

I'm personally still a little paranoid about failure of 380 HP's to penetrate, and will stick with my high-velocity copper solids for now, but I might eventually convince myself these are the way to go.
 
Robert's thoughts are on ar15.com under Best Self Defense Ammo and is fantastic.

That said, 380 DEEP approaches 9mm HST performance. That isnt something others do. It isnt priced any worse either.

Gold Saber is one of the five magic rounds in 9mm and seems to work in the lcp. But HST is the magic round in 9mm but isnt great in 380, it is actually not good.

Meh. How much hp 380 does one need? I hope DEEP gets noticed. It is the best in my mind, passing up Bull's tests of Hornady.

Federal killed of Robert's number one shotgun buck shot load, FlightControl #1. I loved that stuff. Same penetration as 00, but 30% more surface area. Wow!

It does require us to purchase to keep rounds alive. I hope people start checking into DEEP. It is a magic configuration unlike any other 380 jhp. It corrects what was wrong with old Federal Hydra with a post vs new spire post. Just amazing stuff.
 
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I want Lehigh solid copper bullets to be the ''it'' too. But i am not sure the damage happens at the right place. Jhp ends big. My mind, Lehigh rotation would be less effective at the end where velocity ends.

I have a few boxes, but not convinced on them.
 
I want Lehigh solid copper bullets to be the ''it'' too. But i am not sure the damage happens at the right place. Jhp ends big. My mind, Lehigh rotation would be less effective at the end where velocity ends.

I have a few boxes, but not convinced on them.
Its not the rotation. Its the flutes channeling material and shooting it out the side. Kind of like a snow plough.

Heres an interesting video though, that has made me question the design. In this case it appears to be tumbling. But it does create a better cavity than ball ammo. https://youtu.be/sxRqYPpDCZU
 
On initial test, the Norma malfed on 2 of the first 5 shots in my old LCP, which is of course not good. Worked fine in the Max, and recoil wasn’t particularly sharp either. So not the super hot load they advertise on the box. Which IS good.
 
Huh? If a round under penetrates, by definition it did NOT do what it was supposed to do. Do they have a psychological component yes. Should we be depending on that to stop a threat, no.

Most people are not a threat and we should not be counting on a threat to act like most people.

Your argument is based on the current FBI Service Pistol spec.

... which, in turn, is based on a worst case scenario Lateral thoracic shot. (Miami shoot-out - through an automobile window, upper arm+lateral thorax, with three clothing stages)


This might be replicated in a civilian defensive situation by an assailant charging you wound up with a baseball bat.

Other than that, a thorax is ~ 8.5" thick, including front and back ribs.

... and both pelvic girdle and snot locker considerably less.


If an assailant was charging me wound up with a baseball bat intent on grievous bodily harm or death?

He would be catching .45 ACP/230 gr. rounds - first in the pelvic girdle to stop, and then in the snot locker if the threat continued.


So, given that, what is my choice for .380 ACP defensive ammo?

A mag of Winchester 95 gr. PDX1, because it reliably expands to 0.62" and penetrates 8.5"+, backed up with a mag of Winchester 95 gr. FMJ/FP, in case there are any barrier issues.

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Red
 
Its not the rotation. Its the flutes channeling material and shooting it out the side. Kind of like a snow plough.

Heres an interesting video though, that has made me question the design. In this case it appears to be tumbling. But it does create a better cavity than ball ammo. https://youtu.be/sxRqYPpDCZU
Have not seen any indication that it has any marked advantage in permanent wound channel over FMJ/FP.




Red
 
An "underpenetrating" round that only goes in 8" into the body cavity is entirely sufficient … .

A bullet that penetrates 8 in from a frontal shot does not underpenetrate. Eight inches of penetration into the chest from the front is plenty to reach vital tissues of all but the most massive land whales (who likely don't have the mobility to assault you anyway).

What is desireable is a round that will penetrate adequately from a suboptimal angle, e.g., from the side. If a reasonably large person is 24-in wide from outer arm to outer arm, 12 in penetration would be nice to reach the center of mass of vital tissues within the chest cavity, but something less than half way through will still reach one lung.

Don't confuse gel penetration with actual penetration into a body. As the professor who founded the Statistics Department at my alma mater was fond of pointing out: All models are wrong (after all, they are simplifications of reality), but some models are useful. Standardized gel penetration testing is useful in selecting effective handgun rounds for wounding. The International Wound Ballistics Association — comprised of experts in the field of human terminal ballistics — observed that those handgun round that produced at least 12.5 in of penetration in standard, calibrated bare gel, and at least 13.0 in of penetration in such gel preceeded by four layers of heavy denim, were capable of penetrating deeply enough into a human to cause effective wounding.

I don't buy the FBI's undocumented modification of the IWBA criteria — to 12.0 to 18.0 in — because I don't know their rationale. I'll stick with the documented opinion of the experts. I believe the FBI's upper penetration criterion arises from the assumption that more penetration than that in gel will likely pass through a human. In comparing permanent wound channel volumes between rounds — depth of penetration in inches is multiplied by cross-sectional area of the expanded bullet in in^2 — I've seen the FBI cap the depth penetration at 18.0 in for bullets penetrating further.

I don't care about the FBI's barrier penetration testing. If I'm concerned about penetrating barriers I'll carry a magazine with FMJs, or candy stripe a mag.

And, I'm not concerned about overpenetration. Any bullet I fire that strikes my assaillant and passes through him will have little remaining energy with which to wound another. And, I wouldn't fire if an innocent bystander were in the target background. Besides, even the FBI reports that the hottest gunfighters they field miss their target 70% of the time with each trigger pull. Their poor gunfighters miss at a rate of 80%. When I began reading gun magazines in the early '80s, the average LEO gunfight miss rate was reported to be 83%. Each missed shot has all its energy. Thus, anyone willing to use a firearm in defense better wed himself to the rule of knowing he's not jeopardizing anyone downrange of his target before pulling the trigger.

All things considered, I'd carry FMJs in any .380 pocket pistol. Some very few brands can be shown to penetrate adequately while expanding reliably, but often various testers report different results. Tests are also highly dependent on barrel length. If your barrel is shorter than the barrel of the test pistol your rounds may not expand, in which case you are better off carrying cheaper FMJs. If your barrel is longer you may get greater expansion, to a degree where penetration is inadequate, in which case you are better off with FMJs, as penetration über alles in the handgun defense game.
 
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