Lawful carry citizens as targets

but I would prefer to see more training on the LE side (which I can't necessarily confirm), as well as with those who CCW
One area I think civilians need to receive some reinforced training is that they're not LE and they probably shouldn't inject themselves in a situation that doesn't immediately threaten them or their family. While many train, they should not become another "active shooter" unless they're are directly threatened.

Agree 100% and again, I think a standardized CCWP training program that stresses things like this would be great. I can only speak for mine, but it was a waste of time. Here's where the NRA(the traing guy was 'NRA certified, whatever that means) could really make some points in the pro and anti war..stressing personal safety, responsibility..then onto the fun, recreational aspects of range shooting..and maybe back to NRA's original mission, hunting safety.

This also relates to the thread about no training or permit CCW in KY..
One area I think civilians need to receive some reinforced training is that they're not LE and they probably shouldn't inject themselves in a situation that doesn't immediately threaten them or their family

Bares repeating...
 
I know when I would intervene in an active shooting scene I would yell "just the facts, ma'am, just the facts" before I started shooting.
 
and maybe back to NRA's original mission, hunting safety

That’s not the NRAs original mission.

Here's where the NRA(the traing guy was 'NRA certified, whatever that means) could really make some points in the pro and anti war..stressing personal safety, responsibility

The NRA has had gun safety programs for years and years. They spent millions of dollars on research to roll out the school shield (which does not emphasize arming anyone in schools other than SROs, offers it as a suggestion but it’s not an emphasis), and Eddie eagle coloring books have been around at least 15 years (I suspect much longer). Nothing they do will make inroads with anti gunners. What they have done and currently do is typically scoffed at as disingenuous. However, i agree with you in part that training courses emphasizing use of force and actions around law enforcement could be beneficial and that the NRA would be an appropriate source for said training.

My CCH course, years ago before I became a cop, spent the majority of time on laws regarding use of force, what to do if you ever were involved in a shooting, and appropriate actions around police when armed. Granted it was a one day class with a couple of hours on the range, so only so much knowledge could be imparted in a mere 5 or 6 hours.
 
Bares repeating...

It comes down to what you can personally live with...

If standing by watching innocent people lose their lives while you have the means to do something is within your range of living with yourself then it bares repeating.

In 2002 we took down compounds in Afghanistan that had cells training to conduct mass shootings exactly like the one in Paris. That will not be the last of such type attacks nor will it be confined to Europe despite being a much softer target.

Our society would be better off if both CCW's AND LEO's trained in this area learning to consider both being on scene of a mass shooting. Frankly I think our LEO's have become way too militarized and lethal force focused. IMHO, it was a mistake allowing them to access some of the surplus military equipment and has led to a loss of focus on their first mission. I could tell a huge difference in attitude in the LEO's we worked with pre-911 and post-911 after the POTUS allowed surplus military gear to be sold to Police Departments. It was kind of funny working with local LEO SWAT and having the US Army tip of the spear in CT operations with a decade of combat experienced emphasizing seeing hands and making a good shoot while the local cops are all taking about killing people in the house.
 
Last edited:
It comes down to what you can personally live with...

If standing by watching innocent people lose their lives while you have the means to do something is within your range of living with yourself then it bares repeating.

In 2002 we took down compounds in Afghanistan that had cells training to conduct mass shootings exactly like the one in Paris. That will not be the last of such type attacks nor will it be confined to Europe despite being a much softer target.

Our society would be better off if both CCW's AND LEO's trained in this area learning to consider both being on scene of a mass shooting. Frankly I think our LEO's have become way too militarized and lethal force focused. IMHO, it was a mistake allowing them to access some of the surplus military equipment and has led to a loss of focus on their first mission. I could tell a huge difference in attitude in the LEO's we worked with pre-911 and post-911 after the POTUS allowed surplus military gear to be sold to Police Departments. It was kind of funny working with local LEO SWAT and having the US Army tip of the spear in CT operations with a decade of combat experienced emphasizing seeing hands and making a good shoot while the local cops are all taking about killing people in the house.
What I wanted to repeat was some sort of more meaningful and standardized training when getting prepared for a CCWP..Mine was awful.
 
What I wanted to repeat was some sort of more meaningful and standardized training

Welcome to 'Merica, baby. You got the Freedom to go out and seek more meaningful and standardized training. Have fun in your journey.

For others, that short class on the basics of legal aspects for a CCW class was perfect.

The only thing I would add to current CCW training standards are a few minutes of dealing with mass shootings. Establish a defensive position to protect your loved ones as well as those around you and expand/improve it. Develop the firefight. That is a skill and process that is not taught in most tacti-fool classes.

Know the importance of emptying your hands and keeping them in plain view of the officer at all times. A mass shooting scenario is not going to end for a CCW carrier until LEO contact. Realize you are probably going to be cuffed and end up in the back of squad car. It is going to take a while to get things sorted out to their satisfaction. Deal with it. If they cave your skull in during that process...wonderful. You won the lottery and your grandkids will be very happy to inherit the huge lawsuit winnings. Be happy in your good fortune and thank the officer for making this opportunity in your life.

I would definitely add training to every LEO department as well on dealing with CCW holders and mass shootings. Police officers not matter how much they want to be are not combat soldiers. IF you wanted that and are disappointed with Police work, go join the Military. Plenty of people to shoot in the face and their shooters/thinkers are overworked. Officer Safety is extremely important. However, just as a soldiers mission might be to storm the beaches of Normandy were the prospect of survival is not that great....you signed up to Protect and Serve. That means risk. If you cannot accept it, go work someplace else. Love and respect to the officers that understand this....

If I shot everybody I saw with a military firearm in Afghanistan, I would be in jail for murder. A similar response to mass shootings is required with appropriate discipline and clarity of thought.

Understand there are armed CCW holders out there who will respond/react especially given the typical police stellar response times (not your fault Police Officers and my personal safety is not your responsibility)...to save their loved ones as well as others lives.
 
Well said:

I would definitely add training to every LEO department as well on dealing with CCW holders and mass shootings. Police officers not matter how much they want to be are not combat soldiers. IF you wanted that and are disappointed with Police work, go join the Military. Plenty of people to shoot in the face and their shooters/thinkers are overworked. Officer Safety is extremely important. However, just as a soldiers mission might be to storm the beaches of Normandy were the prospect of survival is not that great....you signed up to Protect and Serve. That means risk. If you cannot accept it, go work someplace else. Love and respect to the officers that understand this....

If I shot everybody I saw with a military firearm in Afghanistan, I would be in jail for murder. A similar response to mass shootings is required with appropriate discipline and clarity of thought.

Understand there are armed CCW holders out there who will respond/react especially given the typical police stellar response times (not your fault Police Officers and my personal safety is not your responsibility)...to save their loved ones as well as others lives.
 
LEO's should also keep the possibility of armed citizenry making a lawful self defense shoot in their training footprint.

Well said, along with what HiBC quoted from you.

As an aside, from my LEO perspective armed citizens acting lawfully in defense of self and others is in the training footprint. At least in my area, but I’m also in a very 2A friendly state. Admittedly, I can’t speak with authority for every agency in every town, county, and state in America. It’s nothing to run across a law abiding (absent speeding or rolling a stop sign) citizen who is carrying where I’m from. Absent observations that you recognize from training and experience that lead you to believe citizen speeder is a little more nefarious, most cops around here think nothing about the fact that they’re carrying. This IS introduced in FOF training on occasion. Officers from my agency responded to an assault call a few years ago. Upon arrival, a citizen who had his ccw had a pistol drawn at the low ready, quickly holstered upon observing police, with an apparently scared female backed into a corner. After sorting it out, the “scared female” had just beaten the brakes off of another lady with a broken broom handle, knocking her uncounsious and swelling both her eyes shut. Good guy with a gun witnessed the assault, unholstered his firearm and presented it, stopping the assault. He acted appropriately upon police arrival (reholstered and put his hands up upon first sight of police) and so did the police (he was detained but released without his skull caved in after speaking with witnesses and getting his story, along with viewing video of the incident).

Bad stuff happens. Misunderstandings occur. 99% of the time, they don’t if everyone involved uses even a small portion of common sense.
 
LEO's should also keep the possibility of armed citizenry making a lawful self defense shoot in their training footprint.


The guy fleeing the scene (might be the good guy)
The guy who initially called police to the scene (might be the bad guy)
The guy with the gun (might be a well intentioned citizen or a off duty LEO or other lawful carrier or perhaps the badguy)

The guy who is not obeying your commands might be contemplating an attack on you or maybe its a deaf person or maybe its someone in shock or maybe they are suffering from some sort of medical condition which is impairing their judgment or maybe its so loud that they cannot hear you clearly, maybe they cant see clearly yadd yadda

The guy stumbling down the sidewalk might be drunk, or injured, or suffering from a medical condition which impairs coordination or perhaps they have a head injury yadda yadda yadda.

If the suggestion is that LEO's do not consider that a armed person might be a good guy is just silly on many levels. Any suggestion that LEO training does not already highlight such possibilities is equally as silly in my estimation. Still, I will admit that LEOs are human and some do sometimes make bad judgment calls during the 000.98 of a second that they are typically afforded to make such decisions.
 
Last edited:
Cops gun down man for legally carrying firearm



He fired these conflicting commands in quick succession giving Scott no opportunity to comply with any of them and then fired two rounds at Scott’s chest. As the officer began yelling and Scott realized he was the subject of the commands, he turned, lifting his hands, and apparently tried to follow the legal requirement to immediately inform an officer that he was an armed weapons permit holder, but he didn’t have time.



https://www.wnd.com/2012/06/cops-gun-down-man-for-legally-carrying-firearm/#h8G1RjwmPoKiBp7J.99

Minnesota CCW Holder Shot By Police

The officer was acquitted on all charges but FIRED the same day. Rightfully so, this young man was not looking to kill anyone. He was just very scared and not very well trained.

https://www.usacarry.com/minnesota-ccw-holder-shot-police/

Alabama Mall Cops Blame Shooting Victim for Holding Gun While Fleeing Active Shooter

https://www.thedailybeast.com/alaba...-for-holding-gun-while-fleeing-active-shooter
 
If that is not the sentiment that you perceive after reading a number of posts, that's you.. perhaps you are correct. I commented in a manner reflective of how I felt about what I read.
 
Last edited:
Me too. ;)

What is being suggested is as CCW holders become more prolific and more importantly, mass shootings become more prevalent......

LEO training needs to emphasize even more the fact there will be more and more encounters with legally armed, law abiding citizens.

I hope that is cleared up for you. :)
 
What you don't want is several hundred thousand LEO who are reluctant to do what they deem necessary due to OVER emphasis of a subject that any reasonable person already accepts as important. Training has always been a balancing act and right now I think that if anyone is suffering from a training deficit, its not the active LEOs. Displaying a gun in public is dangerous business but certainly there are methods and tactics which can be used by the citizen carrier which may mitigate the potential of being mistaken for a badguy.
 
The militarization of civilian law enforcement in the United States and the widely held attitude that one’s top priority above all else is to get home to the warm embrace of one’s significant other have made a mess out of what it means to be a peace officer these days.

The Oracle
 
The militarization of civilian law enforcement in the United States and the widely held attitude that one’s top priority above all else is to get home to the warm embrace of one’s significant other have made a mess out of what it means to be a peace officer these days.

The Oracle
Both of those mindsets are a direct result of the lack of respect that LE gets from the public these days. When there is a preponderance of attacks on officers and officers being injured and killed, the response is always going to be to maximize their safety. That will very much include more high-level equipment and a focus on getting home every night.

And in spite of the apparent contradiction, at the same time, being a nice guy because even that attitude can increase the safety of the officers, in general.

--Wag--
 
Both of those mindsets are a direct result of the lack of respect that LE gets from the public these days.

Just like the saying...En Vino Veritas....

There is a grain of truth in that lack of respect that has been earned by the LEO community whether you agree with it or not.

I have the utmost respect for LEO's and it is a career field most of my comrades from the service have entered.

We all noticed the same militarization of LE after the release of so much GWOT Military Surplus Equipment to LE departments in our joint training exercises. It was quite the topic after such training and many laughs were had but it is obvious it has become an issue in our society.

As a professional, to deny that grain of truth with defensive excuses, to not recognize the pendulum does swing, and that we need to be in the middle is simply not productive.
 
There is no "militarization" happening.. no matter what the police look like or what equipment they use.. their role in society is nothing like that of a soldier. The investigations into crime, "apprehension" of criminals and other methods of committing offenders to the criminal justice system is NOT warfighting. The WAR on drugs has never been an actual "War" on drugs. Its just word-play. The quasi-military structure of police forces does not translate into military operations or military mandates, its simply not militarization.

Militarization of Police is a buzz word used by the media.. its all about nuance and less about substance. Police do not serve a military function in this Country and the Military do not perform LEO operations outside of their own auspices except in very limited and unique circumstances.

If the Police were being Militarized they would essentially be soldiers under Federal control who carry out law enforcement functions. They have that in other Countries but that is not how it works here. I saw some guys who looked like State surveyors on the side of road and one of them was driving a Humvee set up with some sort of electronic gear on a small trailer it was pulling. Does that mean that surveyors are now militarized? ::eye roll::
 
Last edited:
American law enforcement has experienced historic changes over the past several decades – particularly in the aftermath of the September 11, 2001 events. In the past, community policing and problem solving were popular policing strategies used in many jurisdictions, but now police departments frequently institute “zerotolerance” policies. This shift incorporates the use of military equipment and weaponry that has flooded into law enforcement agencies across the United States. In many cases/situations law enforcement has also adopted military strategies and tactics – tactics designed for use against foreign enemies. One popularly broadcast and subsequently perceived mission of American law enforcement was to protect and serve the public. Today, the progress of that mission statement is in question.

Today’s law enforcement mission reflects a bypassing of the Posse Comitatus Act of 1878, which restricted the use of the military in civilian issues/circumstances. Today, the militarization of law enforcement provides an exception to that law through the creation of an ad hock military presence. Thus, protect and serve has been replaced with defeat and
conquer.

http://www.cjcj.org/uploads/cjcj/documents/jpj_militarization_of_law_enforcement_-_fall_2015.pdf

The use of military forces under Posse Comitatus remained relatively static until the events of September 11, 2001. Since then, the increasing militarization of U.S. law enforcement has been a topic of controversy, largely due to U.S. military surplus equipment given to civilian law enforcement agencies under the Department of Defense (DoD) 1033 Program.

In the Fall 2015 issue of the Justice Policy Journal, criminal justice instructors Scott Tighe and William Brown of Western Oregon University posit that modern policing in America is now operating on a bifurcated model. One major initiative is to work closely with communities as part of the community policing philosophy. The second major initiative, diametrically opposed to the first, is to push the militarized police model down to the small-town level. The question of whether the two initiatives can co-exist and carry out modern American policing in an effective manner remains to be seen.

https://inhomelandsecurity.com/police-militarization-america/

This paper examines overlooked developments in contemporary policing: the growth in the number of, and a significant shift in the character of. United States police paramilitary units (PPUs). A survey of all police departments serving cities of 50,000 people or more provides the first comprehensive national data on PPUs. Findings document a rise in the number of PPUs, an escalation in their level of activity, a normalization of these units into mainstream policing, and a direct link between PPUs and the U.S. military. These findings reflect the aggressive turn many law enforcement agencies are assuming behind the rhetoric of community and problem-oriented policing reforms.

https://academic.oup.com/socpro/article-abstract/44/1/1/1646485

Rise of the Warrior Cop: The Militarization of America's Police Forces

https://books.google.com/books?hl=e...q=militarization of police in america&f=false

Militarizing mayberry and beyond: Making sense of American paramilitary policing

National-level data, derived from a survey of all police agencies serving 25,000 to 50,000 people, document a previously unrecognized phenomenon: the growth in the number, an expansion of the activities, and the movement toward the normalization of small-locality police paramilitary units (PPU). Beside examining the implications of these findings for small-locality policing, we situate this phenomenon within broader paramilitary changes in the police. To begin the process of making theoretical sense of PPUs, we refute the commonsense notion that their rise is a response to changes in crime. We then contextualize the phenomenon by discussing the lingering influence of the military model, the recent popularity of paramilitary subculture, changing police tactics in the war on drugs, police reform efforts, and the quest to modernize the criminal justice apparatus. Noting similar developments in corrections, we conclude that this phenomenon should not be seen merely as a peculiar manifestation of get-tough policies. Instead it corresponds closely to attempts by the state, in times of high modernity, to further refine its administration of violence.

https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/abs/10.1080/07418829700093521


Soldiers as Police Officers/ Police Officers as Soldiers: Role Evolution and Revolution in the United States

The military and police professions share a number of common facets, but in spite of surface similarities, the two professions are significantly different. Consequently, the evidence indicating a convergence of primary aspects of the two roles presages an important societal development, with substantial implications on several levels.

https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/abs/10.1177/0095327X09335945
 
Back
Top