LAPD officer shot by his son sues gun maker

In the safety lit, folks argue that if people continually make a stupid mistake and you know that they will continually make this stupid mistake despite instructions, then you have to design around that. It does little good to say they are stupid and should have read the manual or the instructions.

We know people don't do that so part of it is your fault.

BTW - I'm not defending the guy - just reporting what I've read in the human engineering psych books - you have to plan for stupidity.
 
His son got a hold of his father's .45-caliber weapon while sitting in the back seat and shot him in the back, according to police reports. The son was not restrained in a safety seat.

Money grubbing, and other aspects of the case completely aside... The defense needs to blatantly point out the fact that it never would have happened if he had properly restrained his 3 year old child. In the mother of all nanny states; I guarantee that kid should have been in a child seat.
The article did say "Ford Ranger". The best you can hope for is a fold-down jump seat in the back of an extended cab. However, Ford has included Air Bag disablement switches since, what, 2000? Even if it was an older model, a 3 year old is typically big enough for a forward-facing seat.

I hope it goes to court, and this guy gets his ass handed to him in legal fees. Countersuit for damages from Glock and Uncle Mike's for defamation?
 
Well if you have to plan for any possibility of stupidity with a Glock, then it would only be able to pop out a flag that says bang on it. But you might put your eye out with that. There are about a million ways to do something stupid with a Glock, among other things, and nothing can prevent that at all.
 
If there's any liability (arguable), I would suggest that 95%-99% of it, if not more, would be attributable to the cop, so in a comparative negligence State like California, the case is not thrown out if there is some negligence on the part of the manufacturer.

This is a case where there are 'good' injuries but there appears little to stand on re liability.

The other 1-5% was gremlin at work....

gremli10.jpg
 
Well, maybe he hopes Glock's insurance company will step in, pay his medical bills and help him have some sort of life.

While I agree that it's the officer's fault, I'm just enough of a liberal to think it might not hurt Glock financially to help this guy out, just a little. There are some people who are very rich in this world, and, a little humanity wouldn't be a bad thing, once in awhile. Sort of the Robin Hood romantic in me, I guess.
 
What would this same cop have done when he stopped a car for speeding and saw a 3 year old kid in the back seat playing with a gun? Someone would have gone to lockup and the kid would have been taken away by child protective services.

The fact that cop had no better sense than to put his kid in the back seat of a truck with a loaded gun exceeds the capacity of my memory banks: This just does not compute.
 
While I agree that it's the officer's fault, I'm just enough of a liberal to think it might not hurt Glock financially to help this guy out, just a little. There are some people who are very rich in this world, and, a little humanity wouldn't be a bad thing, once in awhile. Sort of the Robin Hood romantic in me, I guess.
Hey, don't go playing the compassionate, liberal, humanitarian card to try and make the rest of us feel bad about being hateful, selfish, judgmental jerks.. We all know what you are really like...you are one of us :D ;)
 
That is like saying the company that built my vacuum cleaner is liable if I take it outside and beat my neighbor to death with it.
Dont be rediculous. Vacumes clearly have a label that say for indoor use only. And none have a cord that long. Come on play boy penguin. You would loose this one.
XP
 
Socrates... So Jeep should come to my rescue because I drove a little too fast and rolled my Cherokee and mucked up my left arm (strong side) too much to allow me to do any of the different carreers I am knowledgeable?
I never thought to sue them, or the little county in Mo. with not enough speed limit or curve ahead signs or the state of misery for allowing this...
Go figger I am stupid for thinkin' I gotta man up and pull up my big boy drawers and move on...
Heck this crippled cop can work behind the desk and train fellow LEO's and citizens in the safe handling of firearms...
Brent
 
Playboypenguin Quote:
If there's any liability (arguable), I would suggest that 95%-99% of it, if not more, would be attributable to the cop

How anyone can suggest that the cop is not 100% liable is beyond me. That is like saying the company that built my vacuum cleaner is liable if I take it outside and beat my neighbor to death with it.
Today 11:21 AM

The argument would be that a handgun without a manual safety with a 5# trigger pull is more likely than others of similar manufacture to have a negligent discharge. A three year old might be able to pull the trigger, whereas, in the absence of an engaged 'safety', a three year old might not be able to readily engage a trigger pull of, say, 12#.

It's a question of 'forseeability'. Is is forseeable that a gun might come into the hands of a three year old, through negligent misuse? Is there a legal duty to protect that three year old or others through his forseeable conduct? This is the stuff of the law. And each case will turn on its own facts.

As I said, I don't see much in the way of liability here, though the jury might find some, if it gets that far.
 
The argument would be that a handgun without a manual safety with a 5# trigger pull is more likely than others of similar manufacture to have a negligent discharge.
And a hammer is more likely to bash in a skull than a screwdriver but neither cause harm if used properly and the way they were meant to be used. Misuse does not create liability for the manufacturer.
 
This 'suing of firearms manufacturers' has had a long run. Has anyone thought of the precident that would be set?

I like extremes to prove a point, here goes:

I buy a car, hit a puddle in a curve and hit a tree. The manufacturer of the car AND tires know that this can happen. They're liable?

I buy a stove, come in tired one night and slip in a frozen pizza then fall asleep in the recliner before it's done. I barely escape with my life and the house is totaled. They're liable?

I'm having a party where beer is being consumed and I'm in a small bathroom. Just as I open the door a big guy in a hurry hits it and I fall backwards, hitting my head against the bathtub and getting a skull fracture. Who's liable? The alcohol manufacturers knew that their product could incapacitate people to varying degrees. The architect might have seen the in-swing door as a problem as, maybe, the contractor when they installed it. The bathtub manufacturer surely knew that the bathroom is one of the most dangerous places in the home (maybe a rubber edge on the tub).

I guess that my real question is; When are Americans going to step up to the plate and realize that S-happens and, more often than not, IT'S OUR OWN FAULT!
 
Quote:
While I agree that it's the officer's fault, I'm just enough of a liberal to think it might not hurt Glock financially to help this guy out, just a little. There are some people who are very rich in this world, and, a little humanity wouldn't be a bad thing, once in awhile. Sort of the Robin Hood romantic in me, I guess.
Hey, don't go playing the compassionate, liberal, humanitarian card to try and make the rest of us feel bad about being hateful, selfish, judgmental jerks.. We all know what you are really like...you are one of us

To put my feelings on the issue bluntly: Glocks are overpriced, under safetied(some may see that as a feature) guns, barely suitable for their intended use.

Well, you guys think Gaston hasn't made enough money?
You think his insurance company couldn't pay a million dollars in medical bills, which I'm sure this guy has, without blinking an eye?

I see companies that make money, both legally, and right on the edge of legal, or illegal, read Enron, and really wonder if a little forgiveness, and understanding for our fellow humans might not be in order.

Others have said that this guy is justified by his life in a wheel chair because, as a police officer, he would, or should, enforce the laws of Kalifornia, that would make him a criminal for not having his child in a car seat, and, having the gun within the childs' reach.

My sampling of police officers is they think the Kali legislator is writing WAY too many laws, and, the Penal code should be about 100 pages, max, or less. MOST of the retired officers I know have moved out of state.
Don't blame the police for allowing the absurd laws being passed by the Kali legislature, blame the voters. OH, that means we have to take responsibility for this place?:barf:

While it may not be politically correct, many officers understand that EVERYTHING in Kali is illegal, and, they use their discretion on which laws to enforce. Some are jerks. Some aren't. Don't know this guy, but, I do know he's in a wheel chair for the rest of his life, and, I can only wish that on the Mugabe's of this world...

I also notice we are repeating the same errors we made with the Robber Barons in the early part of the last century. When people become so wealthy, and so selfish, that they accumulate so much wealth they can't possibly ever use it, we destabilize our society, creating a situation ripe for revolution. It's happening a bit now. When gas goes up 50% in a year, it's going to affect those on barely liveable wages, and others. Police make more then I do as a teacher, but, they still don't make much.

At some point, humanity has to win out. For me, I can totally see someone saying to himself,

"there is NO WAY that my cat or my child can pull the trigger on my gun".

My cat can open drawers, clean them out, climb in and sleep. She opens screen doors, and, sometimes, doors we think are closed. She can also jump straight up, about 7 feet, from a crouch.She's quite capable of pulling the trigger on a glock, if so motivated. Wouldn't have known that, when I got her as a kitten. I guess we now know so are 3 year olds. My guess is this police officer figured his gun was safe from a 3 year old. What an incredibly painful way to learn you are wrong...:(

There is a REALLY good argument that a Glock is unsafe for it's intended purpose: in other words, this is the argument that I would make, in court, for the violation of
'implied warranty of purpose'. In other words, you make a product, that, due to it's lack of safety, is inherently dangerous. The industry standard, in fact nearly all other guns, but outdated revolvers, have some sort of safety that requires some sort of intelligent positive action on the part of the shooter to disengage the safety, and shoot the gun. The lack of such a safety on a glock, combined with the light trigger pull(:barf: after typing that) makes the gun inherently dangerous, much more so then the industry standard of other guns avaliable.

Then you trot out all the other choices, that aren't cheap plastic, are made even in DA/SA mode with a much heavier first shot trigger, used by other police agencies, and explain that they would have been a much better choice. Also, you point out the cheap price point the maker has focused on, their active advertizing, and huge budget, and suggest that with some of that money they could have designed a more effective safety on the gun.

As for the falacious argument that just because a government agency buys it, they know what they are doing, I'd trot out a few friends that would say they went with Sig p220's for out PD because Glocks are not reliable, not safe, when viewed against the other entries in the market. They would then testify that the major factor in buying the Glocks was the fantastic, cheap price the guns are offered to LEO's, because, unlike American companies not being able to sell under wholesale cost, Glock does just that, to gain marketshare, because they are an Austrian company, and, it's difficult to detect their actual costs, and, since they are not subject to the absurd anti-gun regulations, and most lawsuits, have much lower costs then an American company.

I would also have a table, covered with about 100 handguns, suitable for police use, that have a safties a 3 year old could not disengage, and, a trigger they could not pull. I'd point out all the different agencies, and, all the different guns in use that have a decent safety on them.

Then, I'd bring out the aftermarket Glock safties, the trigger based one, http://www.tarnhelm.com/GlockSafety.html
GlockSafetyLg.jpg

http://members.aol.com/saftblok/
glock3.gif

http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2008/01/07/sidelock-glock-safety-trigger/
picture-4-7.png

And point out that many others have been concerned with the same issue, and, that for a less then 100 dollar design change, this accident would never have happened.

I love this quote from one of the safety sites:
...
Why take a chance that a moment of forgetfullness leads to a tragic accident? GLOCKs®, originally designed without safeties so law enforcement officers could transition easily from revolvers to semi-autopistols without having to learn how to disengage a safety, can have added protection built in by the installation of the GLOCK manual safety.

This ergonomically designed safety works in fashion similar to the Colt 1911 safety, except that it is in the frame. With adequate training, disengaging the safety becomes habit, yet the safety may bring the history of accidental discharges with a GLOCK® to an end. You can load and unload the firearm with the safety engaged, which locks all the factory-standard passive safeties as well.

I think that's a pretty solid case...
 
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Misuse does not create liability for the manufacturer.

Forseeable misuse is something manufacturers can be responsible for-goes into a defective design theory. IOW, if a misuse if forseeable, you have to make the product 'safe' in order to avoid liability for that misuse. This is a legal products liability principle.
 
Forseeable misuse is something manufacturers can be responsible for-goes into a defective design theory. IOW, if a misuse if forseeable, you have to make the product 'safe' in order to avoid liability for that misuse. This is a legal products liability principle.
So if someone stabs me with a kitchen knife I can sue the manufacturer and win? Stabbing someone with a knife is a foreseeable misuse.
 
Bad facts make bad law.

The fact that a 3 year old fired the gun certainly is strong evidence that the gun is not safe for it's intended purpose. What are the odds a 3 year could fire a Glock into your spine, sitting in the backseat of a car?

This poor guy shouldn't go out if lightning is firing...:(
 
The fact that a 3 year old fired the gun certainly is strong evidence that the gun is not safe for it's intended purpose. What are the odds a 3 year could fire a Glock into your spine, sitting in the backseat of a car?
Then I am afraid all guns are unsafe if you use that criteria. Years ago when they tested that very idea (I believe it was on 20/20 or similar night time news show) 3-5 year olds where able to fire most every gun on the market...revolvers included. They even managed to disengage safeties and rack slides.

The Glock would not have been able to be fired by the child if the gun had been secured out of reach of the child or unloaded.
 
Apples and oranges... a knife is used for cutting by adults, whether food or otherwise. A gun is only authorized to be used by adults, but may come into the hands of minor children. A duty lies to provide some sort of mechanism to prevent or minimize the misuse by a CHILD. If the person in the back seat were an adult, the facts greatly change.

The argument is why produce a gun that can forseeably be misused by a minor child, when the 'state of the art' can prevent that from happening? This is why lawyers are often referred to as 'social engineers' and are responsible, through litigation, for improving the safety of products throughout the country. You don't believe it-then go to China or some other place in Asia or Europe...

Let's assume the Glock had a safety, and the safety was disengaged. By changing those facts a little bit, and assuming a reasonable three year old could not learn to disengage it, plaintiff would have even a weaker case. The point is the accident may not have happened if there were a safety, and it were engaged.
 
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