Knock on my door at 11pm

[Hoskins]

Sigh...I went back and read Hot Rod's post... Rob, you did good!

 

[Skans]

At 11 pm - open the door???? No way! I would have just sat there quietly, about 15 feet from my front door, but in an area where I could see the windows too, with a round chambered and trigger finger pressed up against the frame, just above the trigger, where I like to keep it for safety reasons.

Stay put, keep alert and very quitely listen is all I would do - gun in hand ready to go, and cell phone nearby. I might do a quick check of other doors and windows, if I couldn't see them where I was.

 

[RimfireChris]

(sniff, sniff) I smell an anti. :barf:

 

[Sefner]

I searched California's law database for the crime of "menacing" and found nothing. I did find California's law (where OP resides) for brandishing though. In order to be brandishing a firearm, all of the following must be true:

1. that you drew or exhibited a deadly weapon or firearm in the presence of another person,


2. that either

a. you did so in a rude, angry, or threatening manner, or


b. you did so unlawfully in a fight or quarrel, and


3. that you were not acting in self-defense or in the defense of another person at the time.2

So "menacing" is out, and from the OP's description of events, he did not brandish a weapon (number 2 is not true).

I would not be able to let someone off with a warning for committing the crime of menacing against a minor. I would simply make the arrest and allow the Prosecutor to figure out the "next step".

So the better option is to arrest OP, incurring on them the personal, time, legal, and frustration costs that arrest entails, and just "let the prosecutor figure it out"? And remember, no crime has been committed, except maybe conspiracy to commit robbery (by the "kid"). This is the attitude that makes many civilians distrust police.

kid... kids... small child... child...

This does not cut it for me. Having seen the videos of kids as young as 13 and 14 committing murder (remember where that kid in Chicago was randomly beaten to death with a 2x4 by middle schoolers?), not to mention larceny and theft, plus, OP did not know who was behind that door when he opened it. It could have been Hulk Hogan for all he knew.

You might be committing the crime of menacing.

Again, I was unable to find such a thing in California law. It does exist in common law as basically assault with a deadly weapon. Here is a definition of menacing:

A person is guilty of menacing in the second degree when:

He or she intentionally places or attempts to place another person in reasonable fear of physical injury, serious physical injury or death by displaying a deadly weapon, dangerous instrument or what appears to be a pistol, revolver, rifle, shotgun, machine gun or other firearm;

...

Menacing in the second degree is a class A misdemeanor.

S 120.15 Menacing in the third degree.

A person is guilty of menacing in the third degree when, by physical menace, he or she intentionally places or attempts to place another person in fear of death, imminent serious physical injury or physical injury.

Menacing in the third degree is a class B misdemeanor.

And again, even by the definition of "menacing" and the OP's retelling of the events, no crime was committed. I guess he should be arrested and let the court system figure it out.

I have even had neighborhood children egg my house and spray it with paintballs. There is nothing I can do, but grin and bear it.

Quote is based on California law (for consistency)

Vandalism occurs when one of the following is done to property that is not your own:

Defacing with graffiti
Damaging
Destroying

...

Greater than $400 (can be charged as a misdemeanor or felony): Up to one year in jail and fines up to $10,000

Less than $400 is a misdemeanor on the site. You do not have to just grin and bear it. Any destruction or damaging of your property is vandalism and is a crime punishable by jail time.

If you were to point that weapon then that would be assault. You may say you did not point it, but then the child might say different and then it will come down to who they believe.

It would be assault with a deadly weapon and brandishing. And it is a good question, who will they believe? The United States Marine who peaceably minding his own business in his place of residence or the kid who knocked on the door at 11pm, softly, asked for a generic name, then when was confronted, fled, and asked for someone who does not live there? I would not be surprised if it turned out this kid had priors. Who will "they" believe?

There is also a few other crimes that I could probably fit this circumstance under like child abuse. It doesnt matter what the child was there for, the fact is that you were mentally abusing this child through intimidation with a firearm. You could easily be looking at a few years in prison if you got in front of the wrong judge.

Aside from the fact that someone finds it necessary to find laws that "could probably fit this circumstance" instead of actually enforcing the laws, here are the definitions of child abuse in California:

From Penal Code §11164, et seq. of California law:

Sexual abuse or exploitation as listed by incident in 11165.1; neglect; willful cruelty or unjustifiable punishment; any physical injury inflicted other than by accidental means

It goes on in Penal Code §11164.3 (the only relevant code I could find):

'Willful cruelty or unjustifiable punishment of a child' means a situation where any person willfully causes or permits any child to suffer, or inflicts thereon, unjustifiable physical pain or mental suffering, or having the care or custody of any child, willfully causes or permits the person or health of the child to be placed in a situation such that his or her person or health is endangered.

And Penal Code §11164.6:

'Child abuse or neglect' includes physical injury inflicted by other than accidental means upon a child by another person, sexual abuse, neglect, willful cruelty or unjustifiable punishment, unlawful corporal punishment or injury.

So while a sneaky prosecutor or judge may indeed be able to twist the laws, the key word is "Unjustifiably" in §11164.3. I would also have a hard time believing that a firearm, held down at the side, that is shown while a person is IN THEIR OWN HOME, late at night, to a child (and they didn't know it was a child) that softly knocks on the door and subsequently flees justifies willfully inflicting mental anguish. Sorry, this one isn't happening either.

It doesnt matter what the child was there for

Yes, it does matter. In a huge way. Many many states (not looking this one up in California, switching to the general here) have laws that make criminals give up many rights during the commission of a crime. For instance, we don't charge self-defense shooters with murder because the person they shot was there to commit a crime. Many states, mine included, also have statutes that make any other outcome resulting from the commission of a crime the fault of the criminal. For instance, if two guys invade a home and one is killed in justifiable self-defense and the other is caught, the surviving criminal is charged with murder or negligent homicide because his choice to commit a crime resulted in the death of another person. This has happened before. So yes, the law does take into account a person's motive when they are committing any given act.

I have to do my job in the end which will include taking you to jail and impounding your weapon.

I don't know what "your" job is, but I do know it's not to arrest and disarm innocent people when no crime has been committed just because you are ignorant of your jurisdiction's law.

Frankly speaking, if you displayed your weapon to any of my children then I would take it personally. Even if my children were actively causing trouble, then I would still make a complaint against you. The simple fact is that these are my children and, even if they were knocking on your door, there is no reason to be racking your 1911 or displaying it to them. I would take serious offense at the issue, file a criminal complaint as well as sue you in civil court.

Emphasis mine, just to point out the inanity of this statement.

That is unfortunate and the reason that many people are unwilling to use their weapons in self-defense, because of the fear of lawsuits should they use it. I wonder how many crimes have been committed even though the victim, or a passerby was armed but did not use their weapon for fear of litigation.

I hope this puts that one to rest.

http://www.mycaliforniadefenselawyer.com/criminal-charges/vandalism-arson/
http://www.shouselaw.com/brandishing-weapon-pc417.html
http://library.adoption.com/articles/definitions-of-child-abuse-and-neglect-california.html

 

[Hotrod4u]

All children will cause trouble and I do mean that in a very general sense. They will knock on someone's door, they will get into things, they will take things that are not theirs... If you are a parent, and I suspect many individuals posting in this thread are not, then you know what I mean. Society recognizes that children will cause trouble and, as an adult, you are supposed to understand that they will.

As a parent, I will defend my son or daughter's actions. I will apologize for them when I see there is a need for an apology. However, I cannot justify the intimidation of a small unarmed child with a firearm. If you wave your 1911 at my son or daughter, then I would definately file a complaint. There is a host of laws out there regarding child abuse and child endangerment. Most parents I know would not simply let this one go. If you waved a weapon at their child, then they are going to react negatively.

The "defense of your home" argument is not applicable to this situation. You have an unarmed child knocking on the door and that is all you know. The child could be lost or just playing games. Is it commonplace and normal to come to the door with firearm in hand when an unarmed child is at the door? Is it commonplace for children to play games like knocking on someone's door? The original poster was doing something that goes against the norm and, frankly, irresponsible.

The OP had the option to leave the door closed. He was obviously uncomfortable with the situation so the door should have been left closed. However, he chose to open the door with a weapon in hand and I take it he was trying to intimidate the person on the other end. In this case, the person on the other end was a small unarmed child. Intimidating and threatening a child can get you into trouble no matter what the child is doing. My suggestion is not to approach small children in this manner. It will not be tolerated by anyone and a dim view will be taken by any court or law enforcement officer.

As for the cost of defense the OP would have to pay as a result of a arrest, well, thats just the way it goes. When you violate a law, then you put yourself at risk for arrest. It doesnt matter if you did not really know or thought what you were doing was right. As an owner of a firearm, you have to use the weapon in strict accordance with the law. By holding a weapon in your hand, you have a great amount of responsibility and you should know what is right. Is arming yourself for a possible attack by an unarmed small child the right thing to do? Dont you think a parent is going to say something to you if you racked the slide of your 1911 and displayed it to their child? You cant just do something like that without some type of consequence.

 

[RimfireChris]

You did read thOP's post, yes? Where do you get "small" child anywhere in that? And why was a small, innocent child out running the streets at 11pm? And having a gun in your hand is abusing a child? OMG, does that mean if a neighbor kid sees me putting a gun in my car for a trip to the range, even if, like the OP, it wasn't pointed at them I can be charged?

 

[Sefner]

Very clearly there is some misinformation.

I rack the slide and engage the safety and answer the door with the pistol set up for a retention drill ( position 2 in a draw). The kid is already running as the door comes open, as I think he heard the slide rack. HE stops about 30 feet away and looks at me like he knows something that I don't, a big know it all grin on his face, and asks where Blake is.

Notice the order of events. OP Did not know there was a "kid" at the door until he opened it. Also, the "kid" didn't seem very threatened, being that he STOPPED and turned around. And even after that, the "kid"'s actions were suspicious. It could have been anyone behind that door.

As for the cost of defense the OP would have to pay as a result of a arrest, well, thats just the way it goes. When you violate a law, then you put yourself at risk for arrest.

That is NOT "just the way it goes". As I said earlier, given OP's rendition of the events, no law was broken. Arresting him would be an injustice, and police are supposed to be agents of justice. Innocent people being arrested and charged with crimes is not "just the way it goes". Wow.

Again, from what I can tell, no law has been broken.

 

[Skans]

Frankly speaking, if you displayed your weapon to any of my children then I would take it personally. Even if my children were actively causing trouble, then I would still make a complaint against you. The simple fact is that these are my children and, even if they were knocking on your door, there is no reason to be racking your 1911 or displaying it to them. I would take serious offense at the issue, file a criminal complaint as well as sue you in civil court.

If someone bangs on your door late at night, 11:00 pm, uninvited, it's reasonable for the guy answering the door to have a gun in his hand. This is not "flashing" a gun in public. Nor, is it being pointed in a threatening manner. No law that I know of says you can't hold your gun while answering your door. I suppose it varies from state to state. Again, we're not talking about warning shots, threats, pointing a weapon at anyone. Just holding a gun while answering the door. Are you really going to arrest someone for that? What law was broken?

 

[Rob228]

I did not wave my pistol at any time, I had it high up against my body, like I said, ready for a retention drill should there have been an immediate threat when I opened the door. I did not know at the time who was knocking on my door, be it a child or an actual threat. And please, lets stop playing everything down, and refer to the individual as what he was, a teenager.

If you are that ready to throw out child abuse accusations for me racking a slide behind a closed door and opening my door the safest way I saw fit, I have to ask this: If your child is running around knocking on strangers doors at 11pm, does that make you guilty of criminal neglect?

 

[Skans]

Rob, I've got a question for you - why did you open the door at 11:00 pm?

Don't get me wrong, I don't think you did anything wrong by having a gun in your hand by your side - I would have done the same.....if I decided to open the door. I just don't understand why you would open the door. It's way too easy for 2-3 thugs to overpower you, even if you have a gun, once you open that door. For me, I'd have to use my right (strong) hand to open the door which means it ain't on the gun - or even if I used my left hand, my gun hand would not be in a position where I could defend myself. Even if i had a left-opening door, I'd feel like I'm at a disadvantage if I thought there was a real possiblity of an attack. I'd really rather stand back and wait for the perp to jimmy/break-down the door, as their hands will be pre-occupied and mine will be doing nothing but operating my gun.

 

[orangello]

Thanks for serving!

Have you considered an inexpensive surveillance camera? I picked up a cheapo for under $50 that transmits to a receiver wirelessly; it allows me to hit the button on my TV remote & see who is on the porch. The models with better low-light image might cost you a bit more (as do the color models), but with such a gizmo, you could've initially checked out the porch from the recliner.

http://www.security-cameras-cctv.co...lor-24ghz-with-builtin-microphone-p-2166.html This is pretty similar to what i've got, but i didn't buy mine from that site.

 

[langenc]

Thank you very much for your service and sacrifices.

You did just right. The word is already around-a deterrent.

 

[Skans]

About surveillance cameras. These sound like great ideas, but in reality they don't work that great. You need to mount them pretty high so that no one can mess with them. And, then all you see is the top of people's heads - can't distinguish height, facial characteristics, etc. Just the outline of someone's baseball cap.

If you mount the camera at eye level, then neighborhood kids mess with them when you aren't around - been there, and had that done to me! IMHO, for a surveillance camera to be effective, they need to be well hidden and pointed toward the face of the person knocking at the door.

 

[Rob228]

Skans,
That is a question I am actually still asking myself. I guess I was and still do think it was better for someone to know that I was home, however that could have been accomplished by asking questions through the door. It is a lesson learned on my part, if it does happen again, that door is staying closed.

 

[markj]

Do not go around trying intimidate the neighborhood kids with your firearm.

He never left the doorway. If my son was out at 11 pm and causing trouble I would spank his rear end. But then I digress, my son knows better as a cub/boy scout he trys to do the best he can. Wish I could say that about every young man I meet.

Good luck hotrod with yer kids, let them know when they done wrong or live with wrong all yer life.

 

[Sefner]

If my son was out at 11 pm and causing trouble I would spank his rear end.

But - but - but that'd be child abuse!!!

Sorry, couldn't resist.

 

[thesheepdog]

I would have peeped through my peep-hole. Usually I do this very slowly, with my 1911 ready to go.

I am kinda paranoid now since an assualt happened right under my apartment at 1 am. Scared the snot of me.
So now I have a baseball bat next to my door, and all my guns ready to go.

But - but - but that'd be child abuse!!!

Sorry, couldn't resist.

Haha, oh how society is screwed up!!

 

[Nnobby45]

Should I have gotten the pistol out? I feel I was justified. Did I need to go condition 1? Better 1 than three if I open the door into a threat.

I'd likely go to the door with a pistol in hand at 11PM. I'd make sure I know who's out there before I open it during the day , also. I have distorted glass and it's much easier for me to see out than for anyone to see in, and if someone is up close peeking in, then they're already behind the curve.

If it comes to nothing, nobody will every know I had a pistol in hand, since I can set it aside as fast as I produced it.

As for it's condition-- should the pistol be a 1911, there's no such thing as #2 where my situation is concerned.

 

[Slopemeno]

I don't know how many times this has been worked over but...
If it's SO dangerous you need a gun- don't open the door.

 

[Rob228]

I don't know how many times this has been worked over but...
If it's SO dangerous you need a gun- don't open the door.

What do you have to say for everyone that carries concealed?