Knife Tactics
- Thread starter WhoKnowsWho
- Start date
How can you defend against a blade if you don't know how to use one? I love firearms but IMHO the blade wins within arms distance. http://www.mercop.com/edged.html
With all due respect: Nope! This is the best way I know to, ‘catch it’ from someone who’s ready and knows how to handle a blade. Basically, you’re dealing with two forms of motion in a knifefighting duel: linear attack, and circular defense. Advanced fighters, also, know how to use circular motion in order to attack; but, what are your chances of going up against someone like this? I’d venture to say; ‘Not too great.’
I’d, also, suggest that you forget about using any 4 inch blade to defend yourself; you’re more likely to ruin your civil reputation with it. I’ve used and worked with short blades all my life; and, I can tell you that any stout stick is a much better weapon than any knife – even an $800.00, ‘wonder folder’. If you have any doubt, whatsoever, you should see what a knowledgeable fighter can do with a 3 foot metal rod – watch out! A knife isn’t worth a damn against a good rod-weapon.
Plainly put: Don’t let anyone acting aggressive with a knife get close to you; and, also, don’t let anyone with a Shillelagh do it – either! Knife or rod, both, can and will kill. Given a choice, I’d leave every one of my: Randalls, Morseths, Hibbens, Gerbers, Bucks, and CRKT’s in the closet and select a stout 4 foot stick every time!
You can go high AND low with a stick; you can’t do that with a knife. Raise a knife in a duel; and you’re going to get cut. With a stick you can fight at the limit of your opponent’s range and, still, hurt him. Overextend your reach with a blade; and, again, you will be completely vulnerable. That folder may get you into trouble with the authorities, too; but, how many people are able to recognize a simple cane for the deadly weapon that it may become? (No, I won’t even begin to tell you how to kill with a stick; suffice it to say that, in the right hands, it’s easy!)
PS: It’s not; ‘So basic ideas was all I was looking for.’ Instead, it’s; ‘So basic ideas were all I was looking for.’
Ahhh, I thought I was done; but, they just keep rolling in:
Let’s go back to; ‘NEVER GO HIGH IN A KNIFEFIGHT!’ Furthermore, we’re not talking about boxing. If you reach for the head, your chances of getting cut on the way in (or out) are significantly greater – Too great to make this a viable form of attack against a talented protagonist with a short blade.
And, still, more:
Again, with all due respect – WRONG! A knife is capable of doing MUCH MORE damage than a bullet in CQB. If you’re being rushed by an attacker with a knife and all you’ve got is a pistol, guess what? You are the fighter who is UNDERARMED! Don’t let an enraged knifer get to you because it ain’t going to be about flesh wounds. BEFORE he starts to close: ‘Open up and freight him down’ as you step backwards or to the side. In CQB a knifer is the one with the better weapon.
OK, last one reply:
Wrong, again! The FIRST THING you should attempt to do in any hand-to-hand knifefight is to AVOID THE BLADE. The SECOND THING you should do is attempt to DAMAGE YOUR OPPONENT’S WEAPON HAND.
(Never mind how I know. I wouldn't tell you, anyway.)
Joe Talmadge
Inactive
Arc, thanks for the interesting post. I'd like to respectfully submit an opposing view. I was going to argue you technique and tactic choices point by point, but I realized that I had more fundamental issues with your approach. To wit, statements like this:
I thought this thread was about realistic defense with a knife. In my first contribution to this thread, I gave the opinion that the instant assumption people have when you mention a knife encounter is "both people armed with a knife, starting at long range" is exactly the least likely scenario one might encounter. But much of your post reads as if that's the context for your advice: two people both armed with knives, starting in largo. My apologies if I'm reading that wrong, but I don't see any other clear interpretation of your post.
The more likely scenario? Either you or the bad guy starts with a knife, not both. The action starts in medio or corto, not in largo. While I suppose it's possible that tomorrow I'll walk down the street, and some guy will pull a knife on me from 10 feet away, and then wait for me to pull mine, it's really so unlikely that I don't think that scenario should consume a whole lot of my training. For realistic self-defense scenarios, in my opinion, one guy or the other has the knife, and it starts in medio or corto, fast and furious.
So, to the extent that your tactics and techniques suggested rely on the "knife duel" type scenario -- which it does to a great extent -- I feel your reply is irrelevent to anyone thinking about reality-based knife defense. I don't necessarily agree with your techinques and tactics even under that scenario, but I won't argue with them now, because I feel the knife duel scenario itself isn't worth hurting our brains over, given that there have been very few posts in this thread that have addressed more realistic scenarios.
I'm trying to state this in the most respectful way I can, but still get my point across in the most frank and forthright manner possible. My apologies if I've insulted you anywhere here, it's not my intention.
Joe
I thought this thread was about realistic defense with a knife. In my first contribution to this thread, I gave the opinion that the instant assumption people have when you mention a knife encounter is "both people armed with a knife, starting at long range" is exactly the least likely scenario one might encounter. But much of your post reads as if that's the context for your advice: two people both armed with knives, starting in largo. My apologies if I'm reading that wrong, but I don't see any other clear interpretation of your post.
The more likely scenario? Either you or the bad guy starts with a knife, not both. The action starts in medio or corto, not in largo. While I suppose it's possible that tomorrow I'll walk down the street, and some guy will pull a knife on me from 10 feet away, and then wait for me to pull mine, it's really so unlikely that I don't think that scenario should consume a whole lot of my training. For realistic self-defense scenarios, in my opinion, one guy or the other has the knife, and it starts in medio or corto, fast and furious.
So, to the extent that your tactics and techniques suggested rely on the "knife duel" type scenario -- which it does to a great extent -- I feel your reply is irrelevent to anyone thinking about reality-based knife defense. I don't necessarily agree with your techinques and tactics even under that scenario, but I won't argue with them now, because I feel the knife duel scenario itself isn't worth hurting our brains over, given that there have been very few posts in this thread that have addressed more realistic scenarios.
I'm trying to state this in the most respectful way I can, but still get my point across in the most frank and forthright manner possible. My apologies if I've insulted you anywhere here, it's not my intention.
Joe
Joe, you have more than politely stated your opinion; and you are certainly entitled to it. What’s with the: ‘Corto’, ‘medio’, y ‘largo’ terminology? Do I detect something of Filipino technique? You’re right, too. I DO have experience, ‘dueling’ with knives. I can look at the scars on my forearms or side anytime that I feel like being reminded of, ‘the good old days’.
Nowadays, though, I read a lot about knifefighting or, more in line with your viewpoint, ‘knife attacks’ on various internet websites. I take it all with, ‘a grain of salt’; I honestly don’t think there are too many, ‘survivors’ around to comment on this sort of martial behavior. It’s been many years, now, since anybody’s come at me with a knife; but, I’ll stand by my original statement; ‘The FIRST THING you should attempt to do in any hand-to-hand knifefight is to AVOID THE BLADE. The SECOND THING you should do is attempt to DAMAGE YOUR OPPONENT’S WEAPON HAND.’
Look, I’m not addressing these remarks to assassination. If you catch it from a guy who’s just asked you for, ‘the time’, well, that’s your fault because he never should have been allowed to get THAT close in the first place! This being said: Whether it’s a sneak attack or a, ‘duel’ doesn’t really matter. In the brief moment you’re going to have between the instant you see, either, rapid arm motion or steel - and the guy is on you - my advice would be to SEEK TO AVOID THE BLADE!
To an experienced man with a short blade, most aggressive reactions you will attempt – other than avoidance - are going to be little more than opportunities for him to cut you; and, it needs to be recognized that a, ‘good knifer’ is going to be coming on hard and fast! He’ll slash to clear YOUR hands and follow by thrusting to cripple you. The current, ‘target du jour’ is the neck; but that wouldn’t be my first choice. Me? I’d hit low and, then, move up. If I ever had, ‘a style’ (And I’d like to think that I did not.) I used to prefer to whack a hand or elbow before it was almost at maximum extension. If I couldn’t get to the arms, then, I’d go for either side of whatever leading knee. The only time I’d stand on an opponent’s vertical body centerline (a la Steven Segal) was when I wanted to bring him forward to have at me. Then I’d fight exactly the same way as: Echanis, Styers, and Biddle recommended. I know that, ‘the wheel’ keeps getting reinvented; but, quite frankly, I haven’t witnessed any knifefighting style that works better than what I’ve briefly outlined here.
If you have only a second or two to react: My suggestion would be to get off the other guy’s vertical body centerline – ideally by moving away from the blade toward the side of your opponent’s body that forces him to reach across himself in order to get at you. Then, encourage him to reach and seek to damage his weapon hand. A smart fighter is going to rush you. It’s up to you to be able to, ‘pass him by on one of HIS corners’. The only thing I’ll add is, sometimes, a low kick will work – especially to the side of the knee - but I, personally, wouldn’t try any form of high attack short of, maybe, pushing a shoulder.
Other than this you are more than welcome to practice and prepare yourself for CQB in any way that you see fit. I really do appreciate your courtesy; so many times this sort of discussion will turn into a, ‘pissing contest’. You have graciously decided not to do that; and I respect you for it. May I suggest that - against the day when you may suddenly have to face a short blade - you tuck my, ‘strange advice’ away, somewhere, in the back of your mind.
In the broad perspective from which you approach, ‘knifed combat’ I’d have to agree that stopping the attack IS the primary consideration; and, if you’re carrying a gun, I’d certainly recommend using it. To my mind: Avoidance of the blade is (and will remain) the primary directive in any knifefight: corto, medio, o largo, spontaneous, or dueling. I don’t care if you run away, kick a chair into the middle of the fray, or start moving toward the opposite side of your opponent’s body away from his knife. The key word remains, ‘AVOID’.
After avoidance comes the reply. Do whatever you can to clear yourself of the blade and encourage your opponent to reach for you. If you’re familiar with Aikido-style joint locks – fine. Use barehanded techniques, again a la Steven Segal, to clear yourself of the weapon; but, whatever you do, quickly damaging the other guy’s weapon hand is going to be paramount to your survival.
One of my favorite people to practice knifefighting with was a Tai Chi Chuan instructor who was crossed trained in Okinawan Gung Fu. He was excellent at inside, ‘push hands’ techniques aimed primarily at: wrists, forearms, and elbows. He was originally trained by an old Hawaiian named (Professor) Henry Lee. My instructor’s name was Alex; and he used to be able to stand on my vertical body centerline; and, with his powerful short arms and hardened hands, he could consistently push any attack I made away from his body; and, then hit me hard - often from the inside! Fortunately for guys like you and me there aren’t too many Alex Kupai’s in this world. Alex always said that I had a lot to learn about Tai Chi; but, not too much more to know about knifefighting. (He wasn’t too shabby with a blade, himself; and, I believe he meant the compliment, too.)
What the hey, this sort of response has helped to bring me to the age of 62; and, in my time, I’ve been complimented by, both, Ed Parker and Gil Hibben. They always seemed to think that I knew what I was doing with a knife in my hands. However, I do have to admit that was yesterday; and this is today. I don’t, ‘knifefight’ anymore - not in or outside of a dojo. (Can’t, my legs were permanently damaged in an accident back in 1990.) I just like to talk about it, now; and, try as I might, I’m still drawn to these sometimes silly and too often inane threads. Maybe I should, ‘cut it out’.
Best of luck to you!
Nowadays, though, I read a lot about knifefighting or, more in line with your viewpoint, ‘knife attacks’ on various internet websites. I take it all with, ‘a grain of salt’; I honestly don’t think there are too many, ‘survivors’ around to comment on this sort of martial behavior. It’s been many years, now, since anybody’s come at me with a knife; but, I’ll stand by my original statement; ‘The FIRST THING you should attempt to do in any hand-to-hand knifefight is to AVOID THE BLADE. The SECOND THING you should do is attempt to DAMAGE YOUR OPPONENT’S WEAPON HAND.’
Look, I’m not addressing these remarks to assassination. If you catch it from a guy who’s just asked you for, ‘the time’, well, that’s your fault because he never should have been allowed to get THAT close in the first place! This being said: Whether it’s a sneak attack or a, ‘duel’ doesn’t really matter. In the brief moment you’re going to have between the instant you see, either, rapid arm motion or steel - and the guy is on you - my advice would be to SEEK TO AVOID THE BLADE!
To an experienced man with a short blade, most aggressive reactions you will attempt – other than avoidance - are going to be little more than opportunities for him to cut you; and, it needs to be recognized that a, ‘good knifer’ is going to be coming on hard and fast! He’ll slash to clear YOUR hands and follow by thrusting to cripple you. The current, ‘target du jour’ is the neck; but that wouldn’t be my first choice. Me? I’d hit low and, then, move up. If I ever had, ‘a style’ (And I’d like to think that I did not.) I used to prefer to whack a hand or elbow before it was almost at maximum extension. If I couldn’t get to the arms, then, I’d go for either side of whatever leading knee. The only time I’d stand on an opponent’s vertical body centerline (a la Steven Segal) was when I wanted to bring him forward to have at me. Then I’d fight exactly the same way as: Echanis, Styers, and Biddle recommended. I know that, ‘the wheel’ keeps getting reinvented; but, quite frankly, I haven’t witnessed any knifefighting style that works better than what I’ve briefly outlined here.
If you have only a second or two to react: My suggestion would be to get off the other guy’s vertical body centerline – ideally by moving away from the blade toward the side of your opponent’s body that forces him to reach across himself in order to get at you. Then, encourage him to reach and seek to damage his weapon hand. A smart fighter is going to rush you. It’s up to you to be able to, ‘pass him by on one of HIS corners’. The only thing I’ll add is, sometimes, a low kick will work – especially to the side of the knee - but I, personally, wouldn’t try any form of high attack short of, maybe, pushing a shoulder.
Other than this you are more than welcome to practice and prepare yourself for CQB in any way that you see fit. I really do appreciate your courtesy; so many times this sort of discussion will turn into a, ‘pissing contest’. You have graciously decided not to do that; and I respect you for it. May I suggest that - against the day when you may suddenly have to face a short blade - you tuck my, ‘strange advice’ away, somewhere, in the back of your mind.
In the broad perspective from which you approach, ‘knifed combat’ I’d have to agree that stopping the attack IS the primary consideration; and, if you’re carrying a gun, I’d certainly recommend using it. To my mind: Avoidance of the blade is (and will remain) the primary directive in any knifefight: corto, medio, o largo, spontaneous, or dueling. I don’t care if you run away, kick a chair into the middle of the fray, or start moving toward the opposite side of your opponent’s body away from his knife. The key word remains, ‘AVOID’.
After avoidance comes the reply. Do whatever you can to clear yourself of the blade and encourage your opponent to reach for you. If you’re familiar with Aikido-style joint locks – fine. Use barehanded techniques, again a la Steven Segal, to clear yourself of the weapon; but, whatever you do, quickly damaging the other guy’s weapon hand is going to be paramount to your survival.
One of my favorite people to practice knifefighting with was a Tai Chi Chuan instructor who was crossed trained in Okinawan Gung Fu. He was excellent at inside, ‘push hands’ techniques aimed primarily at: wrists, forearms, and elbows. He was originally trained by an old Hawaiian named (Professor) Henry Lee. My instructor’s name was Alex; and he used to be able to stand on my vertical body centerline; and, with his powerful short arms and hardened hands, he could consistently push any attack I made away from his body; and, then hit me hard - often from the inside! Fortunately for guys like you and me there aren’t too many Alex Kupai’s in this world. Alex always said that I had a lot to learn about Tai Chi; but, not too much more to know about knifefighting. (He wasn’t too shabby with a blade, himself; and, I believe he meant the compliment, too.)
What the hey, this sort of response has helped to bring me to the age of 62; and, in my time, I’ve been complimented by, both, Ed Parker and Gil Hibben. They always seemed to think that I knew what I was doing with a knife in my hands. However, I do have to admit that was yesterday; and this is today. I don’t, ‘knifefight’ anymore - not in or outside of a dojo. (Can’t, my legs were permanently damaged in an accident back in 1990.) I just like to talk about it, now; and, try as I might, I’m still drawn to these sometimes silly and too often inane threads. Maybe I should, ‘cut it out’.
Best of luck to you!
Last edited:
Arizona Fusilier
New member
And I'd like to thank both of you for a very civil, and informative, discussion! 
Don't kid yourself! I've been in plenty of internet fights on The High Road. The worst was, probably, about that idiot who shot a guy to death while the victim was walking his dogs in a park area. Many of The High Road, 'regulars' seem to think this idiot is some sort of, 'gun hero' who was, just, exercising his second amendment right of self-defense.
The clear fact that this, 'attack' was largely imaginary completely eluded many High Roaders. 'Why' more respondents couldn't recognize this trigger-happy jerk for the coward that he really is, I'll never know? True story: About 3 weeks after becoming involved in this heated debate, I'm walking in the park and - so help me, God - we were suddenly confronted by three large aggressive dogs! Life really can be strange! No, I didn't start shooting. As a matter of fact, because I let one of the animals get much too close to me, I doubted I'd be able to draw and rack the slide before being bitten. For a few moments there, I was genuinely concerned and thinking about abstruse realities like, ‘evil karma’!
As the animal closed in on me, I was forced to reach for the knife on my far side just as some dizzy woman came running up to us shouting; 'I'm sorry!' 'I'm sorry!' ‘We're from the South!’ We didn't think the dogs would be a problem around here!'
For a moment I was too angry to speak. I just kept looking at her and shaking my head. ‘From the South - huh!’ Thank God the Pit Bull I was holding is consummately obedient because my, 'little girl' was truly ready-to-go! Thankfully, however, she continued to listen to my soft commands not to – Even when the lead dog came right up to her and (stupidly) growled in her face.
In no particular order:
Knife fights typically resemble brutal, fast and furious one-sided muggings where the mugger has the knife and the muggie didn't know it until far to late.
The small knife unseen until felt is plenty large enough. Lets define small as 4 inches and under for arguments sake. There are plenty of 3.5-4 inch knives out there and plenty of locals where they are legally carried.
"Felt" is often mistaken for being punched. Many a stab victim has reported they mistakenly believed they were being punched in the side before they began to cough blood, black out, and lose the use of their legs. You're in serious trouble at this stage.
Defang what, if you don't know there is something to defang?
Duels are rare enough to be almost unheard of. Those of you carrying guns at this stage should be accessing and using them. This is the least likely and only scenario were the "I'd use my gun" plans hold water for most.
Know dueling advice when you hear it. Recognize it for what it is. Absorb it if you’re interested, certainly, but understand the context whereby it is useful. See immediately above.
Stabs send more to the morgue than slashes.
Most gun enthusiasts are kidding themselves when it comes to the topic. No, you're not always in yellow let alone orange. No, you're not that fast and even if you are it most likely won't matter.
Knife fights typically resemble brutal, fast and furious one-sided muggings where the mugger has the knife and the muggie didn't know it until far to late.
The small knife unseen until felt is plenty large enough. Lets define small as 4 inches and under for arguments sake. There are plenty of 3.5-4 inch knives out there and plenty of locals where they are legally carried.
"Felt" is often mistaken for being punched. Many a stab victim has reported they mistakenly believed they were being punched in the side before they began to cough blood, black out, and lose the use of their legs. You're in serious trouble at this stage.
Defang what, if you don't know there is something to defang?
Duels are rare enough to be almost unheard of. Those of you carrying guns at this stage should be accessing and using them. This is the least likely and only scenario were the "I'd use my gun" plans hold water for most.
Know dueling advice when you hear it. Recognize it for what it is. Absorb it if you’re interested, certainly, but understand the context whereby it is useful. See immediately above.
Stabs send more to the morgue than slashes.
Most gun enthusiasts are kidding themselves when it comes to the topic. No, you're not always in yellow let alone orange. No, you're not that fast and even if you are it most likely won't matter.
Joe Talmadge
Inactive
Exactly!
In the case you describe, where it's the bad guy with the knife, you'll likely be defending at first as if it were an empty-hand assault, because the knife is hard to notice. You're right, most people, even after being stabbed, don't realize they're in a knife assault at first. Statistically, that's the way it is. That doesn't mean other scenarios aren't possible -- especially for someone who is very aware -- but it's important to spend a lot of time training for the reality we know about.
In the case you describe, where it's the bad guy with the knife, you'll likely be defending at first as if it were an empty-hand assault, because the knife is hard to notice. You're right, most people, even after being stabbed, don't realize they're in a knife assault at first. Statistically, that's the way it is. That doesn't mean other scenarios aren't possible -- especially for someone who is very aware -- but it's important to spend a lot of time training for the reality we know about.
I hope someone doesn't think I know what I'm talking about and take my advice. However I understand from the experts that there IS a time to run in a knife fight and that's when your assailant has an axe. The Randlemade knives booklet advises this, and in a fight to go for the gut, for shock. Then follow up with a stab to the heart, Be sure to slide the knife in so it goes between the ribs, not otherwise and so be blunted. The Model I Randal in 8-inch blade appears to be an appropriate weapon for this.