Knife Tactics

quote:stab more than slash
-I'm curious, what is the rationale behind that?
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A stab has a better chance of hitting a vital organ or artery, which will cause more rapid incapacitation. For example, instead of slashing at the gut, a stab might penetrate the abdominal wall and into the liver, etc.

Of course, it's hard to argue that some slashes directed at arteries (carotid, femoral, etc) in FMA wouldn't do the job too.

I have heard by those involved in combat that the best approach is to stab right for the face assault style, as human instinct is to shield the face in such an attack.
Sounds logical. Of course if you explain this and then try to do it in training, it might come out a little different. On the street, where both people are sweating and there is most likely going to be some weapon fixation? Yeah, might be a good strategy.
 
quote:

stab more than slash

I'm curious, what is the rationale behind that? RONIN308

krept hit the nail in the head.
The rationale is much the same as it applies to terminal ballistics in regard to firearms. Stabbing your opponent increases your potential to "quickly" incapacitate your opponent, which should be your goal in a defensive setting.

A cut to the body, face, arms, legs etc. While horrifying to see is much the same as a "flesh wound" in a gun fight. The particular muscles and perhaps tendons may be damaged but fast incapacitation probably will not follow if the opponent is determined.

There is a specific capacity for cutting or "scaling" which is predominantly a psychlogical attack. Where large cuts are made to the limbs or face, much like scaling a fish. The point in this scenario is to psychologically damage the opponent and take him out if the fight mentally.

However if he is determined incapacitation will only come through, vital organs being shutdown, to reach the organ requires stabbing, in most cases at least 4" blades preferrably longer. or massive loss of blood causes blood pressure to decrease causes a loss of conciousness. To acheive the blood loss effectively one must again reach arteries and blood vessels deeper in the human body.

While cutting the limbs and body may be an effective way to imobilize an aggressor's limbs or "mentally" take the fight out of him, don't count on it to stop his attacks immediately.

I personally was cut on the arm deeply and didn't even notice the cut until the agressor hand been cuffed. I had also been stabbed "to the hilt" with a 3 1/2" knife in the back of the shoulder, I thought at the time that I had been punched there.

I would try to make sure that your opponent is immediately, if possible, incapacitated with stabs to important orgasn and blood vessells.

Once again I am not an expert in knife fighting!

Run like a madman, if you can't run.
Stab like a madman!!

Regards,
HS/LD
 
On stabbing versus slashing, I think you have to look at your situation. If your opponent also has a knife, I think FMA calls for disarming your opponent which would mean you slashing at their knife hand largo mano style until they drop their weapon. Typical pocket carry knives are going to be 4 inches or less, which means even if you do intend to kill your opponent, chances are it will take a long time to find an organ.

Thoughts?
 
My tactic is trifold

- Like Lynn Thompsom said: range negates skill. The close you get the more likely you will get cut. If you trained enough you'll be able to fight from farther. Also carry a big knife, a 6inch blade is the BARE minimum. A bigger blade will giver you more range when slashing and deeper penetration when stabbing.

- Train like you're gonna fight and fight like you train. Practice slashing and stabbing at carboard boxes. Also train on getting youre knife out fast enough. Although you get never get you're knife out too fast, fast enough means faster then the otherguy.

- Try to intimidate the other guy. Fear is the last thing you need in a knife fight. Best way to scare the other guy is to impress him with youre skill. Carry a butterfly knife and swing it open with a latch drop, that will scare most wannebe thugs away. More knifefights have been won without a drop of blood being shed then by some guy ending up as a bloody mess in the gutter.
 
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The best way to win a knife fight that I know of is to bring a gun.
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That pretty much sums up my technique. :)

I have a cousin who is a very serious martial artist, and his advice to me re: knife-fighting was to bring a gun.

- Gabe
 
Using a large knife helps, of course. I like my KA-BAR - it's pretty "scary" looking. Hopefully I'll never actually have to use it, but if I do, I know it'll do the damage required to win.

Of course, the first strategy is to bring a gun. :D I do agree though, stab more than slash.

Ryan
 
In a knife fight, the choice of whether to stab or to slash depends on the target area you are involved with.

Limbs should be attacked with slashes. Arms and legs are small, rapidly moving targets and a stab which uses only the narrow point of the blade has a better than average chance of missing the limb as it moves.

Plus, a stab that misses has to be retracted, offering your adversary that much more time to counter-slash your arm.

So. Slash at limbs: this brings the entire edge of the knife into play against the smaller, quickly-moving limbs, and a slash that misses has already moved somewhat out of your opponents' area of control.

The body and head shold be attacked with stabs. Where the limbs have the main muscle tissue, nerves and blood vessels outside of any protecting bone, this is not the case with the head and torso.

A slash aimed at the torso must necessarily encounter the ribcage before it can get to the vital organs, nerves and vessels housed therein. Ribs are amazingly tough, springy bone and are well-capable of causing a knife blade to skip from rib to rib during the length of the cut, producing a relatively superficial injury, whereas a stab has a good chance of slipping between the protective ribs to reach the vitals.

As far as the head goes, what can you say about the skull? It is the hardest bone in the human body and the very curvature increases the protective ability of that bone to an amazing degree, and while there are more than a few weak spots in the skull, these spots are not big enough to take advantage of with a slash.

So, slash when your opponent offers you a limb, stab when you get to the body and/or head.

LawDog
 
If you are forced into facing a threat with a knife- and for some reason cannot use a firearm to defeat the threat- any tool you can use to engage your attacker while staying outside his effective knifing range should be utilized. Sticks, thrown projectiles- rocks, plates, dirt, whatever- anything that can hurt him while keeping you out of cutting range.

If you are about to die, and have only a knife, your attacker should not even be aware you have a knife until he's unconscious. Go in hard, because the only alternative is death.

John
 
I cant bring any formal knife training to the table, but I can bring 38 years of general wisdom. If you can run, by all means do so. If you cant, dont let them know you have a knife until you stick it somewhere important.....and maybe twist it a little. Then run!


m16
 
Anyone know a good webpage with information about tactics with folding knives and such? I've been looking around but haven't found much of anything. Thanks!
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It's interesting that a post about tactics with folders generates so many warnings about avoiding knife fights. Why the assumption that if one guy has a knife in his hand, the other guy must necessarily have one, also? Reality says that if one guy has a knife, it's more likely the other guy doesn't. In short, if situations with knives are rare, knife-to-knife fights are incredibly rare. The bad guy will not pull his knife 10 feet away, then wait for you to pull yours so you can start a duel, so you can pretty much push aside all the warnings about knife fights.

So what are you talking about, really? One possibility, you pulling your knife defensively, against someone who isn't similarly armed. Maybe multiple guys jumped you. Maybe one guy jumped you, but you have reason to believe your life is in danger and you're losing the fight. Maybe your warning bell went off and you palmed the knife when the bad guy walked up, and deployed it before he could deploy. Another possibility of a knife being introduced is that the bad guy hit his knife, then pulled it and started attacking before you had time to pull yours (again, he's not going to stand 10 feet away and wait for you to draw -- he doesn't want you to know you're in a knife assault until after the knife is in you). In all of these cases, a theme emerges: you should be spending a lot of training time training empty hand against the knife, but with the bad guy giving criminal-knife-assault type energy instead of flowing energy. And you should be spending a lot of time with the knife in your hand, against unarmed bad guys. Also, the idea of starting unarmed and fighting your way to your knife (making time and space to draw) is important.

If this sounds more like reality to you than the knife-on-knife duels you're being warned about (or even if it doesn't), here's the next step for further reading:

http://www.shivworks.com/mythproparm.asp

Then go to http://www.shivworks.com/tutorials.asp and check out "CQC Knife", "Expression of Pikal", and "Knife Defense"

Joe
 
During an impoverished period while pursuing a masters degree at a local university, I worked for three weeks one summer at a local meat packing plant.

During this time, I was privileged to observe the slaughter of beef cattle.

The cow was led in at the top of the ramp out of a chute. The cattle were already rather crazed because they could smell the blood of the previous inductees into the T-Bone Hall of Fame.

The executioners were two Mexicans. They hit ther cow in the head with a tool that drove an air-powered bolt into the cow's head, then as the cow fell down the ramp, they inserted their hook bladed knives into the cow belly and just let gravity do the work.

In under three seconds, all of the internal organs of the cow were spread out (steaming in the refrigerated air) on the slaughter house floor, and whether the cow was dead or still alive was strictly academic.

I think that some cultures use edged weapons better than other, Filipinos and Mexicans come to mind.
 
Best way to utilize a knife against an attacker is not to let them know you have one until it is buried in their body or they've been slashed in the right place. It should come as a complete surprize to them.
 
(Yeah, and here's one more!)

:rolleyes: ‘Stab more than slash’ ???

I’ve been playing these games for more than 40 years. Here’s some of the lessons I’ve learned; and, yes, I’ve got the knicks on my hands, forearms, and sides to warrant these remarks: (1) If you are able to run away from an attacker with a knife, do so! (2) If you must stand and fight, DO NOT put your back to the wall; you’ll need the space behind and around you to avoid the blade. (3) If there is any sort of, ‘pole weapon’ available, use it. A stick is a better weapon than a knife; and, even, a rolled up magazine will do. (4) Avoid, ‘going in’ using any linear form of attack (like stabbing) because it is always easier to counter than to hit. (5) Force the attacker to reach for you; ‘work his perimeter’ and bring his attacks to the maximum extent of his reach. (6) The hands and forearms are your principal targets. Aim for them! (7) If you must stab always launch the attack from a, ‘quarter angle’. (Imagine your attacker standing in the middle of a giant horizontal, ‘X’. Stab at him from the end of the, ‘X’s’ arms.) (8) If your attacker is right-handed, ALWAYS move to your right and force him to slow down by striking at you across his own body. (9) Recognize that your attacker is most vulnerable at that precise moment, ‘When’ he is fully extended and reaching for you. (10) Place ANY available obstacle between yourself and the attacker. (11) Break off contact at the very first opportunity. The hero who understands, ‘When’ to withdraw lives to fight another day.

If I knew I were going into a knifefight without a weapon-of-choice, I’d look for a stick and a handful of: salt, sand, or dirt. There you have it; a lot of what I’ve learned about knifefighting over the past 40 years. This isn’t a pretty subject to talk about – is it! :o
 
well...

...if you're gonna' break the law by bringing an illegal knife, might as well go ahead and bring a gun...

...and you'll STILL need training...

Good hand to hand will teach you ALOT about fighting with weapons...Good takes time and effort...

Get started hurting now to understand what you're really in for...If you win a good fight of any kind...you'll still be pissin' and pukin' blood afterwards...

...just less than the loser...
 
I have to agree with gyp_c2. You're breaking the law with anything above 3 in. and screwed with anything under. I'd rather survive illegally than die legally. Hint hint hint.
 
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