Knife in a Gun Fight

We would do well to remember that the "21ft Rule" is based on averages from tests with duty holsters from a few years ago. Some will beat the clock, some won't. That was just where the average was for those tests. It is a reasonable estimation, not a hard and fast rule.

I usually carry a knife on my strong side, as it is more for utility than defense. My light goes in the off-hand pocket.
 
Post #35, shock, blood loss....

I agree 100% with post #35.
As posted, if you deploy a sharp knife like a TDI KaBar, a fixed blade or a small folder then slash or cut your attacker, the injury or blood loss might cause them to go into shock or become more defensive.
Unless the have a high level of adrenalin or are intoxicated(bath salts, PCP, acid, etc), the sight of a serious wound will allow you to over-power them & either get away or detain them.
For safety & universal precautions I would be careful handcuffing a wounded subject. They might have a disease(hepatitis, HIV, etc).
Knife & stab wounds can cause large amounts of blood loss quickly.
 
raimius said:
We would do well to remember that the "21ft Rule" is based on averages from tests with duty holsters from a few years ago....
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Again folks obstinately refuse to understand the real meaning of the Tueller data (and it is not a "rule").

The point Tueller was trying to make with his experiments is that an assailant 21(+/-) feet away with a contact weapon needs to be taken seriously as a threat. You need to take him seriously as a threat because (1) he can cover the distance between you and him in a short time; and (2) it will take you a roughly comparable amount of time to draw and fire your gun.

If you're especially fast and accurate or can buy yourself a bit of time by "getting off the 'x'", that will be good for you. If the assailant is especially quick and agile, that will be bad for you. The outcome will depend on how all the factors add up.

But the bottom line will still be the the guy across the room making threats with a knife in his hand is a credible threat.
 
Massad Ayoob....

Tactics trainer & legal use of force expert: Massad Ayoob once documented a demonstration by a top knife/edged weapon expert named Marsilla Brasallia(check correct spelling).
She showed Mas & a class how she could use a sharp blade to slash a person's hand, wrist and then neck in about a second & a half. :eek:
Now that's a highly skilled edged weapons expert but a armed citizen or professional could learn these skills too.
 
The 21ft rule, was taught just to warn law enforcement that a man with a knife within that range is a real threat, and if a determined man with a knife charges you, OH you may kill him with your handgun, and you might get off a shot, but that doesn't mean you will stop him, and then he may be on you, with enough life left to kill you, and or stab you many times, before he expires.

Little knives are dangerous, but big knifes are more dangerous, because they give the attacker or defender reach and leverage, and power to not only cut but even dismember fingers and hands, etc. and they don't run out of bullets.

Forget the 21ft rule, you should probably be worried more about the 7 to 10ft rule, because chances are you won't recognize the threat, until the bad guy is already well within the 20ft or so. Do you thing a bad guy with a knife is going to actually warn you at 21ft that he is coming at you!
 
Exactly, Blue Duck...the ability of recognizing a threat in sufficient time is something that a few of us here can not seem to take into account. Doesn't matter how fast a person can draw if they cannot recognize a threat until it is too late.

Its not about the speed and technique. Its about context. I will take a slow shooter who smells a rat around corners over a speed shooter who unknowingly walks into the rat's nest any day.
 
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Little knives - I know two cases where a man was stabbed once with a paring knife (the little guy you use to slice an apple) and proceeded to just drop dead right there.
 
We should have a 21 foot thread. I think for me it is valid. In training you are expecting something to happen. Most times in reality, one is reacting to the unexpected. This takes time to fathom what is happening.
Their is a video of several Police officers confronting a man with a knife. They Knew he had the knife and was dangerous. They still got hurt.
 
We also have to remember that we may think someone is a threat a good way out, but that doesn't mean you can draw and plug them at that distance.

its a factor on why BGs can get close.
 
Threat recognition, distance....

I think all TFL members can agree that threat recognition is an important factor. Being alert & aware of any knives, big or small, can make a serious difference.
There is a old training saying too; "distance equals safety".
I wouldn't negate a small blade either. In 2011, I had a incident doing security work where a street guy jabbed another vagrant with a small folder in the chest.
There was a large amount of blood that came out rapidly. The victim was treated by EMTs & went to a local hospital.
The attacker saw me & fled the scene. He was arrested by police with the help of a K9/working dog. All the charges were later dropped. :rolleyes:
 
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There's a major assumption being made here, one that I don't find particularly valid. And that assumption is that a useful fighting knife is somehow much easier to bring into action from a position of concealment than a concealed firearm. Can anyone show evidence that it takes appreciably longer to draw and bring a firearm to bear than a knife?
 
There is being "prepared" and there is "brandishing".

There is a difference, I teach you can be prepared and not brandish.

Brandishing could get you thrown in jail if the perceived there turns out not to be a treat. Then not being able to be prepared because of the fear of a brandishing charge could get you hurt.

Lets say you're at an ATM late and night. A flaky looking guy approaches the ATM. Is he a threat or is he waiting to use the ATM. Flaky looking guys use ATM's also. I do, many think I'm flaky looking.

One should adjust his carry where he can be prepared, or ready, and no one but he knows it.

I carry a 642 in my pants pocket. I constantly walk around with my hands in my pocket.

I demonstrate to my students that just because you don't have your firearm out, doesn't mean you can't have the advantage.

Its practice and method of carry. I want to see one present the handgun from concealed, firing and hitting center mass on an USPSA target at 3 yards.

Its doable, in demonstrating last night, using a shot time I did it in 0.34 seconds. I think I could do it faster but I was reacting to the shot timer instead of acting.

I don't think there is a man alive that can cover 21 feet in 1/3 seconds.

I good method of practice is to use a "blue training gun", the same type you carry. Have someone face you with their arms bent at the elbows. Elbows at the side, and hands body with a part.

Your training partner is to clap his hands when he sees you start to draw. The idea for him is to clap his hands before the gun gets there. Your idea is to have him clap his hands with the gun between the hands.

I know lots will say its BS. Its not. Its how you carry the gun. And it takes a bit of practice.

The theory is you can act faster then you can react. You are acting, the hand clapper is re-acting.

But you have to find a method of carry that allows you to present the handgun instantly.

As I said, I pocket carry. Another good method is carrying in the front pocket of a "hoodie" (we use to call them sweat shirts".

You also have to thing about the pistol/revolver. Exposed hammers can and will hang up.

With a non-hammer exposed J-frame also has the advantage of being fired from inside the sweatshirt (or coat) pocket. Pistols don't give you that advantage.

Keep the treat or possible treat beyond arms length. Its simple just take a step backwards.

Threats are like grenades. If a grenade lands a meter or more away, hit the ground. If a grenade lands with in a meter, take a step then hit the ground.

In short being "ready" doesn't mean you have to walk around with gun in hand. We cant do that, nor do we need to do that.
 
2 way street.....

From a training/alertness standard too, Id be aware of this important factor too;
street people or violent criminals can be alert or key into danger signs too.

Doing security work in some "less desirable" locations I can tell you, it's not uncommon for thugs or crooks to size up a possible target or be leery of any possible weapons or danger signs.
If see any "danger signs" or problems, more than likely they already saw you too.
 
There's a major assumption being made here, one that I don't find particularly valid. And that assumption is that a useful fighting knife is somehow much easier to bring into action from a position of concealment than a concealed firearm. Can anyone show evidence that it takes appreciably longer to draw and bring a firearm to bear than a knife?
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I think it's because one of the primary advantages of a knife is its ability to attack with extreme stealth. Since we're (presumably) discussing defense, rather than attacking knife owners, the assumption is that you will be drawing your gun against an already drawn knife.

Larry
 
This past "Knife-wielding man vs. five officers with guns" should make a mandatory appearance in every "knife vs. gun" thread.

As far as carry goes, I don't actually even think of knives as weapons generally because I haven't ever used them that way or trained to use them that way. I mean, I understand that they can be used that way in a pinch; but it isn't my primary purpose in carrying them.

Having said that, I usually have anywhere from 3-4 knives on me. So I've generally got one accessible to either hand. Right now, I'm carrying a keychain SAK, an M4 Sebertool (also on keychain), a Benchmade Rift folder and a CRKT SPEW on the belt (accessible to either hand). The SPEW is just so darn handy, light and fast that I use it frequently (despite needing to resharpen the soft Chinese steel all the time); but I've been carrying a folder in my pocket since Junior High and it just bugs me not to have one with me. So I end up carrying two knives with 3-4" blades.
 
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The guy you have to worry about with a knife is not the guy you see coming. It is the knife you do not see coming.

One of the times I was stabbed we were clearing up a fight at the EM's club. There were 8 MP's and 300 people fighting. As we worked our way into the melee a guy came out of the shadows and stabbed me in the back. I did not even realize i had been stabbed until after the fight.

The Tueller drill is great, but it is only ONE tool. Offline,shoot, offline shoot.... Whatever you must do, even to the point of taking defensive cuts.
 
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