Knife in a Gun Fight

I'm not into knife fighting but I am a fan of military history, and arms and uniforms of our past military.

From what I understand I believe if you use a knife and a gun, the knife should go with the strong hand, the gun which is easier to use and requires less strength should go in the week or off hand.

If you'll look at military uniforms from periods where the sword and gun were used, the sword was on the left side, but arraigned so that it could be drawn with the right hand (cross draw). When you look at the holster it is also arraigned so the butt of the revolver points toward the front (cross draw). Being set up in the cross draw position for the left hand it also can be drawn by the right hand. Its more difficult to draw a pistol/revolver with the left had if the holster is set up for the strong hand draw (butt facing the rear).

Its easier to shoot weak hand then it is to use a knife with your weak hand.
 
In the movies you know whats about to happen, in real life you wake up (not always) and ask what happned. If you live with a knife and a gun out of necessity your address is wrong. Then there is Uhaul. I carry a knife because it's a tool and I don't bite apples since I got the bridge, I cut them up. I like one handed knives because they only require one hand. Last thought: If you had ever been in a knife fight you would do whatever it takes to prevent another one. Being ready for anything is impossible.
 
Its called the "21 foot rule" which is the biggest myth since the internet came out.
I demonstrate this (with rubber knives and blue training guns) in my ladies firearms SD class.

Starting at 21 feet the knife guy charges the lady with a gun. Even the slowest lady could beat the knife guy.

Draw, shoot and sidestep = gunman wins.

It takes years and years of training and a bit of physical ability to be good with a knife.

Not so much with a firearm at normal SD distance, or the distance a knife would be a threat. They don't call the gun the "equalizer' for nothing.
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You cant be serious. Those same ladies would likely do far worse in their NATURAL HABITAT than in the confines of YOUR DEMONSTRATION where they have an idea of what is coming and what specifically they must do. I would love to see how they fare as they are fishing for their car remote in a busy Walmart parking lot or as they hold the door for a little old lady.

And your assertion that it takes years of training to be good with a knife is ridiculous. A knife is simple tool. Even a novice can be lethal.
 
You or anyone else is more then welcome to observe one of my classes and see for your selves.

I don't instruct a normal Fires Arms Class. The NRA would throw a hissy fit.

The students don't shoot from normal positions.

They draw from a diaper bag on a stroller, or from a purse in a shopping cart. I have a 3 foot doll and they have to draw and shoot while pulling the simulated child behind them for cover. They shoot from recliners, couches and seat belted in a car, laying down as if they were knocked on their butts at an ATM. That's just some of the scenarios I use.

I'm not interested in itty bitty groups, I'm interested in speed hitting a torso at relatively short range.

I do not have a set course of fire, my scenarios are based on the crimes against women I've seen in my twenty years in LE and crimes reported in the news.

I have a technical adviser (for lack of a better term) who attends with her mother. She has a Masters in Forensic Firearms Investigation who has studied or investigate thousands of firearm related incidents.

What I've learned from these ladies is:

DO NOT EVER SELL WOMEN SHORT when it comes to the ability to protect themselves and children.

Again we don't have a set course of fire, but there is an exception we do every night. One student aims her pistol at a target. A second student has her pistol where she would normally carry it. When the lady with the aimed pistol sees the lady with the concealed pistol start to draw she is to shoot.

If the lady fails to draw and get her shot off first, she needs to re-evaluate her method of carry.

You'd be surprised how many times the lady with the concealed weapon gets the shot off first.

If the lady can draw and shoot before the 2nd lady who already has her gun aimed, then there is no way you can convince me that a guy with a knife can cover 21 feet before a lady can draw, fire and sidestep.

The 21 foot rule is a MYTH, I can prove it to anyone who wishes to dispute it.

Its simple physics, You cannot, from standing and cover 21 feet in less then 2 seconds. But its easy for even a novice to get a shot off in less time then that.
 
kraigwy said:
Its called the "21 foot rule" which is the biggest myth since the internet came out....
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What's really a myth is calling it a "rule." It is not any kind of a rule.

Dennis Tueller (a Salt Lake City police officer) developed the exercise to test at what distances an assailant with a contact weapon could be a credible threat. The Tueller data can be helpful to a defender who needs to establish that he was reasonable in concluding that someone making threatening gestures with a club or knife had Ability, Opportunity and put him in Jeopardy even if the "assailant" was 20 feet away.
 
The blade does not need to be " lethal" any more then the pistol does to be an effective defensive tool

The idea that my pistol can kill, therefor its an appropriate defensive caliber is FLAWED.

The same holds true for the knife. The basic philosophy on edged weapon wounds if they fall into 2 categories. Timers and switches

A timer is a wound inflected that will cause effect over a time period. Think blood loss as a good example. A good slice to the brachial artery will start things leaking nicely, but will NOT instantly incapacitate someone but may be lethal an a cpl minutes

A cut flexor tendon switches off the ability to close the hand, instantly effecting that appendage, but is prob NOT lethal (assuming medical care can be given in a reasonable amount of time)

It bothers me that people still equate lethality with stopping the attack. Lots of people have been shot/stabbed/thrown off buildings and lived. The KEY is to stop the attack. If the attacker dies as a result. Thats unfortunate, but **it happens

With an edged weapon the target areas that immediately effect the ability to attack are actually less likely to lead to death of the attacker. Tendon cuts are a perfect example.
 
The 21 foot rule is a MYTH, I can prove it to anyone who wishes to dispute it.
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You're so missing my point. A live demonstration is not like a real life scenario. The adrenaline is flowing and they are somewhat prepared, especially if they are standing in front of the opponent, the instructor and a room full of classmates. Take those same women who are able to prove your theory out of that ARTIFICIAL environment and place them in a more REALISTIC environment like a busy parking lot with an arm load of groceries and a crying 5 year old in tow...and I bet that you will see a much different reaction/response time.
 
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Sir:

There is a difference between training and instruction.

Instruction tells you what to do.

Training is taking that instruction and practicing until an act can be preformed without thinking, while under stress, while scared to death. The idea is to react to a threat without thinking.

In one two hour class, I can give you instructions on what to do when threatened. That means nothing, you can get that from a book.

However if you train the same 2 hours every week from the 1st of Nov to the middle of May, that "instruction becomes second nature".

Training is nothing more then instilling habits. We have natural habit when confronted with a threat. We flee, we throw our hand up to protect our face, we scream, etc. etc.

With instruction followed by extensive training, we can develop the habit of producing a defensive weapon as a habit of responding to a threat.

There are many things that can be used as a defensive weapon. I believe the gun is best, as it can be used as defense for a 100 lb lady against a 200 lb. attacker. Or an 80 year old lady against a youth ( I do have am 82 year old lady in my class and she's getting pretty good).

With instruction applied with extensive, repetitive training we can develop habits allowing us to respond without thinking while overwhelmed with fear and stress.

Our soldiers do it every day in combat.
 
But we aren't talking about soldiers who train everyday, are we? Just how extensive is the training you offer?

When there is no real imminent threat continually honing an average citizen's situational awareness, I would argue that no matter how repetitive your training may be, the average student will be very hard pressed not fail the Tueller drill not long after leaving your facility.
 
If carried solely for defense or as backup, then yes. However, mine is primarily used for utility tasks, so it stays in this right-handed person's right pocket.
 
But we aren't talking about soldiers who train everyday, are we? Just how extensive is the training you offer?

When there is no real imminent threat continually honing an average citizen's situational awareness, I would argue that no matter how repetitive your training may be, the average student will be very hard pressed not fail the Tueller drill not long after leaving your facility.
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Easy to say, but its hard to convince you unless you are willing to observe these ladies.

The problem here and on the street is people see a lady and automatically think they are helpless.

If one would only watch/read the news you'll see that is often fatal mistake.

Lets assume one is fast and from a dead stop reach 10 mph (14.7 fps) in 21 feet.

time while acceleration is V1+V2 / 2 or 0 fps + 14.7 fps / 2 = 7.35 fps

21/7.35 is 2.857 seconds. So basically using the extreme max speed, it would take a person nearly 3 seconds to cover 21 feet.

I really doubt the average bandit can accelerate to 10 mph in 21 feet. But I know these ladies can draw and shoot in less then 3 seconds.

This leads me to accept the theory of "don't take a knife to a gun fight" over the theory of the 21 foot rule.

But again, all you have to do is watch these house wives, ranging from age 18 to 80 to see for your self.
 
I don't always carry a knife when I carry, but when I do it's a fixed blade in a kydex sheath that you can either carry IWB or pop the clip off and stick in a pocket. I don't mess with folders, with the fixed blade I can quickly draw from the pocket or IWB with no fumbling.
 
Quote:
I read somewhere that if a well trained
guy with a knife gets within (I can't remember)
16 or 26 feet of you and your gun-you have troubles.

Big Trouble...........
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Only if you haven't drawn, which you should probably rectify. ;)
 
In the movies you know whats about to happen, in real life you wake up (not always) and ask what happned. If you live with a knife and a gun out of necessity your address is wrong. Then there is Uhaul. I carry a knife because it's a tool and I don't bite apples since I got the bridge, I cut them up. I like one handed knives because they only require one hand. Last thought: If you had ever been in a knife fight you would do whatever it takes to prevent another one. Being ready for anything is impossible.
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Eldermike has the way of it.
 
I was told by an instructor, when I woked armed, that my knife that I carried on duty was in a very good spot. I just placed it on my right side in front of my holster at maybe the 2-3 O'clock position. It was a K-Bar TDI, which is a small angled knife. He told me that if someone tried to grab my gun from behind, I would hopefully have quick enough time feeling the retention from my holster to unsheath this small knife and hopefully cut their hand or wrist. If I were to be grappling for the gun or keeping it holstered with my right hand, given the angle of the knife, I could sort of crossdraw it that way and use it the same. The advice made sense. Im not sure if this is the most effective way, but it cant hurt.
 
Quote:
Its called the "21 foot rule" which is the biggest myth since the internet came out.
I demonstrate this (with rubber knives and blue training guns) in my ladies firearms SD class.

Starting at 21 feet the knife guy charges the lady with a gun. Even the slowest lady could beat the knife guy.

Draw, shoot and sidestep = gunman wins.

It takes years and years of training and a bit of physical ability to be good with a knife.

Not so much with a firearm at normal SD distance, or the distance a knife would be a threat. They don't call the gun the "equalizer' for nothing.


You cant be serious. Those same ladies would likely do far worse in their NATURAL HABITAT than in the confines of YOUR DEMONSTRATION where they have an idea of what is coming and what specifically they must do. I would love to see how they fare as they are fishing for their car remote in a busy Walmart parking lot or as they hold the door for a little old lady.

And your assertion that it takes years of training to be good with a knife is ridiculous. A knife is simple tool. Even a novice can be lethal.
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1. I'd much rather meet some fool who had a knife with a gun then another knife.

2. The logical extension of your argument is that BG's with knives are killing machines that the average GG can't win against. Er...no. Somehow the cops manage to deal with knife guys quite well, else they'd be walking around with broadswords no?

3. Having said that, I repsect that they CAN be lethal at that distance and you should react accordingly.
 
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Early in my LE career, actually I was 18 and 19 as an Army MP I was stabbed or cut 3 times. All three were "our" guys. I decided then and there the next person to threaten me with a knife was gonna get shot. Almost shot a GI a few weeks later. I don't care if he is 50 feet away, if he approaches me in a threatening manner with a knife or any weapon i am going to shoot.

As far as keeping one available for both hands? I am not that coordinated.
 
If you live with a knife and a gun out of necessity your address is wrong.
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There is no safe place to move in this world, you're fooling your self if you think there is.

One would think Rural Wyoming is about as safe you could find.

Wright WY 15 year old shoots and kills a guy he saw abducting a neighbor lady.

North of Cody WY in a gated community two young adults wanted a car for a trip to Denver. They killed three in a home invasion to gain the keys to the car.

I could go on. Read the papers/watch the news, there is no safe place.
 
I carry my knife in my left pocket with the assumption that if the aggressor actually gets a hand on my right arm my free left hand could reach for the blade, if that was more expedient than an open hand strike.

Incidentally, I found that the back of my pocket keeps my knife blade closed if the lock comes off. Nothing more aggravating than scratching yourself with your own knife point.
 
Seems to me that the distance of lethality with a knife has more to do with initiative than distance.

If the knife person has surprise, then they can likely cover and strike... but if the gun person knows the attack is coming, they can likely draw and shoot in time.

The OP is not however asking about this. His question has nothing to do with it, actually.

He's asking about where to carry his knife (strong or weakside) to aid in defending against an attacker trying to get the OPs gun.
 
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