Kel-Tec prices: Are these normal or am I right to suspect something?
- Thread starter TruthTellers
- Start date
TruthTellers
New member
That's what I've heard. Even the .32 is snappy to some. All that recoil for such a thicc, heavy gun isn't a good choice for ccw in 2018.
Maybe in 1997.
Bill DeShivs
New member
I have told this story before:
Lat December one year I was working on my P32. After reading an incorrect disassembly guide, I broke the mainspring. Called Keltec to order another. Keltec was closed for the holidays. I decided to carry my NAA Guardian .32 until January.
Stuck it in my pocket and went to work.
After work I went straight to my friend's gun shop and bought a spare P32!
That's how much heavier the Guardian is.
Lat December one year I was working on my P32. After reading an incorrect disassembly guide, I broke the mainspring. Called Keltec to order another. Keltec was closed for the holidays. I decided to carry my NAA Guardian .32 until January.
Stuck it in my pocket and went to work.
After work I went straight to my friend's gun shop and bought a spare P32!
That's how much heavier the Guardian is.
dogtown tom
New member
I had a Guardian in .380 and concur.
Most painful handgun I've ever fired.
Couldn't wait to get rid of it.
one thing people tend to overlook on Keltecs is the quality of the steel compared to other brands. Kelted uses very good steel and its pretty rare to see slides fail on keltecs. Two exceptions are the PF9 and old P40. Those pistols are pretty fragile compared to the P11, P32, and P3at.
Keltecs aluminum recievers tend to hold up a lot better than all the other Keltec clones out there. As do the polymer grips on the keltecs.
Another huge benefit of Keltecs is parts support from the factory. Easy to order and inexpensive. Also Keltec does not tend to discontinue pistols unlike most manufacturers these days.
P32.... Just a great little 32 that stands alone in its class. Nothing really comes close in terms of pocket gun.
P3at.... one of the best pocket 380s. Rough on the outside but they hold up better than any of the others due to quality of raw materials used. Outside the beretta pico I dont think any of the P3at clones out do the P3at. Yes I am talking about even ruger LCP which crack slides, split frames, crack crips. I typically recomend the Pico for a pocket 380 because they are head and shoulders than even a keltec but other than the Beretta I put P3ats at the top of the heap reguardless of the rougher external appearance.
P11... is a legend of a pistol IMO. Very small, very light, lots of firepower, very durable, very reliable, Double strike capability, 10-12 rds with option of 15 rd backup mags, Lots of aftermarket etc. etc. I am amazed how much attention the sig is getting when the P11 still beats it on versatility. I get the marketing aspect and how new is better etc. etc. but P11s have a proven track record. As for all the P11 clones... its not even close.
Biggest gripe people seem to have on the p11 is the trigger. It has more to do with overtravel than anything. Once you fix that they are accurate.
PF9s are a whole nother story. They are not like p11s. Its not uncommon for them to have major component failures after low round count. Why they didnt stick with the P11 slide is beyong me. I suspect when they sacrificed the p11 hammer design it caused more beating on the slides and shortening the life of the pistol. It would be a solid pistol in 380acp but its not strong enough for 9mm IMO. They could beef up the slide a bit, maybe go with a steel frame (ala the old grendels), and possibly work out a better recoil spring system to rectify this but Keltec seems to have accepted the failures of the PF9.
Keltecs aluminum recievers tend to hold up a lot better than all the other Keltec clones out there. As do the polymer grips on the keltecs.
Another huge benefit of Keltecs is parts support from the factory. Easy to order and inexpensive. Also Keltec does not tend to discontinue pistols unlike most manufacturers these days.
P32.... Just a great little 32 that stands alone in its class. Nothing really comes close in terms of pocket gun.
P3at.... one of the best pocket 380s. Rough on the outside but they hold up better than any of the others due to quality of raw materials used. Outside the beretta pico I dont think any of the P3at clones out do the P3at. Yes I am talking about even ruger LCP which crack slides, split frames, crack crips. I typically recomend the Pico for a pocket 380 because they are head and shoulders than even a keltec but other than the Beretta I put P3ats at the top of the heap reguardless of the rougher external appearance.
P11... is a legend of a pistol IMO. Very small, very light, lots of firepower, very durable, very reliable, Double strike capability, 10-12 rds with option of 15 rd backup mags, Lots of aftermarket etc. etc. I am amazed how much attention the sig is getting when the P11 still beats it on versatility. I get the marketing aspect and how new is better etc. etc. but P11s have a proven track record. As for all the P11 clones... its not even close.
Biggest gripe people seem to have on the p11 is the trigger. It has more to do with overtravel than anything. Once you fix that they are accurate.
PF9s are a whole nother story. They are not like p11s. Its not uncommon for them to have major component failures after low round count. Why they didnt stick with the P11 slide is beyong me. I suspect when they sacrificed the p11 hammer design it caused more beating on the slides and shortening the life of the pistol. It would be a solid pistol in 380acp but its not strong enough for 9mm IMO. They could beef up the slide a bit, maybe go with a steel frame (ala the old grendels), and possibly work out a better recoil spring system to rectify this but Keltec seems to have accepted the failures of the PF9.
Carl the Floor Walker
Moderator
So you are saying the LCP is now modular? You can change the grip? I will take you up on that, show me how you do this, where to buy the grips and how that is done considering the serial Number is on the grip. This will be interesting.
Hopefully you can contact Ruger and let them know. Especially since in had a number of the grips crack so bad that Ruger had to replace them and not to mention cracks in the aluminum frame and even rails splitting.
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Carl the Floor Walker
Moderator
No one is talking about the fact that they can be extremely easy to carry. The Keltec would be the only one of the aluminum chassis guns I would buy. The 380 cartridge is just too powerful for many rounds to be fired through them before the fold like a cheap lawn chair. The 32 cal should do ok. And with the new Cavitator ammo, it would make a very capable pocket pistol.
You do not have to buy a all steel. The Pico and the Kahr are all steel chassis and will run like the dickens. I have two Pico and they just keep on trucking. One must have about 4-5 thousand rounds now without a hiccup. The second one over 1500 rounds and they will easily handle the hottest loads. And they are extremely mild to shoot. No harsh recoil, no high five muzzle flip etc. Tough build quality.
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Bill DeShivs
New member
I don't have an LCP here to compare, but they are blatant P3AT copies.
The P3AT frame is serial numbered. The frame is housed in the GRIP FRAME, which is plastic. And the grip frame is easily changed.
I believe it's against federal law for a plastic pistol to have the SN on the plastic-it has to be on metal.
The P3AT frame is serial numbered. The frame is housed in the GRIP FRAME, which is plastic. And the grip frame is easily changed.
I believe it's against federal law for a plastic pistol to have the SN on the plastic-it has to be on metal.
Carl the Floor Walker
Moderator
Where can I order one for the LCP? Ruger must really be dumb, since they had two replace two pistols that the Polymer grip frame had cracked. Two new FFL's.
And to think I can replace a new Grip frame on my Pico for a measly $18.00, which I have bought simply to change out the color or do some Hot Iron work on.
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Bill DeShivs
New member
Talk to Ruger.
The LCP serial number is clearly on the aluminum frame, seen through a window in the plastic grip frame-just like the Pico..
The LCP serial number is clearly on the aluminum frame, seen through a window in the plastic grip frame-just like the Pico..
Bill DeShivs
New member
Geesh...
NO handgun can be relied upon in a gunfight, unless there is a central nervous system hit- and the .32 acp will do that as well as any caliber.
The .32 acp has been protecting people for 120 years.
Bigger IS better- but not very much better in the real world.
NO handgun can be relied upon in a gunfight, unless there is a central nervous system hit- and the .32 acp will do that as well as any caliber.
The .32 acp has been protecting people for 120 years.
Bigger IS better- but not very much better in the real world.
Carl the Floor Walker
Moderator
Totally correct that no gun can be relied upon, to say so is internet garbage. And I stand corrected that the serial number of the LCP is Like the Pico on the chassis. The point I was trying to make is that they cannot be changed by the end user. Unless I am missing something, and Ruger will send you a Polymer grip. As I said, they just replaced a number of guns for me with I had grip cracks, frame cracks and rails that split.
The Pico was and is a gun ahead of it's time. Beretta walks to a different drummer. They made a serious pocket gun, used top of the line materials of stainless steel, Placed nice sights on the gun, with the ability for the end user to easily add night sights. They designed the gun to be modular, which made changing grips easy, and the ability to work on the gun if necessary much easier and to clean.
And You are right. Ruger is a marketing genius. They copied the design of the Keltec, but a different Polymer grip on it and advertised the hell out of it. I mean millions of dollars. Timing was perfect. Small pocket guns were selling like crazy with the CCW craze, the gun were "Cute" and easy to carry, and Rugers customer service was exceptional.
The sold a million guns in one year. And there was really nothing special about them. Nothing that the Keltec did not already offer. And while I do not own a Keltec, something tells me that the materials they use have better quality.
The first Ruger LCP had the very long trigger pull. Many newbies just cold not shoot them. Then the LCP Gen 2 which is a very nice trigger, double action, (and Still manufactured) came out. Still the Newbie that wanted these guns could not shoot them in fast action and were doing nothing but target shooting LCP's. Now Ruger designed the LCPll trigger which is IMO horrible for a small pocket gun. They feel like a light Striker fired trigger and many did feel the gun was unsafe. Gut they are easy to shoot as target guns. Ruger, however did design the gun to have last round lock back.
These aluminum guns are what the Old retired Marine LGS said to me many years ago when I bought my first LCP. "They are, Throw away guns, shoot em till they crack and get a new one."
The Keltec for 32 is a good design. The Ruger LCPll is a extremely over rated pocket gun.
The Market is flooded with them. Taurus had the insight to do the same thing as Ruger, steal the Beretta design. Easy Take, down, with modular grip. However, they are building on the Cheap, with aluminum chassis, no decent sights to speak of, but IMO a much better design than the Ruger LCPll. And they saw that the LCP ll trigger was indeed not safe and not necessary.
WELCOME TO THE WORLD OF ADVERTISING. And Ruger does it better than anyone else.
QUESTION? COULD RUGER BUILD A TOP QUALITY POCKET GUN IF THEY REALLY WANTED TO?
I will try and find some old pics I have of the cracks in the aluminum chassis.
I showed the Pics of the Pico and the all Stainless Steel chassis and parts and modular design and now here is the Kahr. Notice the Steel inserts on the Polymer grips at the stress point. And again, the Kahr like the Pico has nice sights that can be switched out to night sights.
I do think the Keltec 32. with the Leheigh Cavitator would be a interesting firearm. Especially with the very light Weight of about 6 ounces.
And given the choice of a LCP or Taurus Spectrum, I would choose the Spectrum. I have to say it interest me for my collection. Really want to shoot one first.
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Choosing least powerful caliber(s) and justifying it with anticipation of superior shot placement or dismissing the potential of making a hole nearly an inch rather than .32 is beyond me.
Are there any 32 loads that penetrate 12-18'' and consistently expand? I doubt it.
There are select few 380 loads that meet that desirable criteria.
https://www.luckygunner.com/labs/self-defense-ammo-ballistic-tests/
45 acp HST and Ranger T expand to make holes .85 - 1'' - approximately 3x the hole of a non-expanding 32 bullet.
If limited by work attire and pocket carry is the best one can do, then a 380 loaded with one of the best loads or even better a pocket 9mm (Kahr PM/CM) may have to suffice.
Kel-Tec makes 9mm pistols; 9mm is a reasonable minimum.
Are there any 32 loads that penetrate 12-18'' and consistently expand? I doubt it.
There are select few 380 loads that meet that desirable criteria.
https://www.luckygunner.com/labs/self-defense-ammo-ballistic-tests/
45 acp HST and Ranger T expand to make holes .85 - 1'' - approximately 3x the hole of a non-expanding 32 bullet.
If limited by work attire and pocket carry is the best one can do, then a 380 loaded with one of the best loads or even better a pocket 9mm (Kahr PM/CM) may have to suffice.
Kel-Tec makes 9mm pistols; 9mm is a reasonable minimum.
Bill DeShivs
New member
I have pistols from .22 short to .45 auto (no .40!) I have Keltec P11s and PF9s. Multiples.
I keep a 9mm pretty handy at all times, and would grab it if the situation allows.
But, I CARRY a .32 on me at all times when I am out of the house. Having A GUN is paramount. I prefer to have a pistol that resides in my pocket at all times, that is exceptionally easy to carry.
Thinking that any handgun is a death ray is beyond me.
As I said, bigger is better-but not MUCH better.
I keep a 9mm pretty handy at all times, and would grab it if the situation allows.
But, I CARRY a .32 on me at all times when I am out of the house. Having A GUN is paramount. I prefer to have a pistol that resides in my pocket at all times, that is exceptionally easy to carry.
Thinking that any handgun is a death ray is beyond me.
As I said, bigger is better-but not MUCH better.
Is your typical non-work attire conducive to carrying a pistol like the P11 or PF9 IWB/OWB?
Surely if you had to defend yourself you would prefer the P11 or PF9 in your hand, but option that would require "dressing around the gun".
I could be wrong, but I'm guessing the affinity for a small 32 is more about clothing preferences than caliber preference.
Bill DeShivs
New member
Absolutely, it about clothing preferences. But I enjoy shooting the little cartridge.
I can legally carry, open or concealed, any handgun. I prefer smaller, more comfortable ones for every day pocket carry.
I can legally carry, open or concealed, any handgun. I prefer smaller, more comfortable ones for every day pocket carry.
Carl the Floor Walker
Moderator
If the gun is not comfortable, I just will not carry it. Over the course of 10 years of carry, I just went from larger to smaller. I will not under any circumstances carry anything bulky IWB. Drives me crazy. I have spent a lot of time training and carrying Pocket guns, find them fascinating and fun to shoot. (Provided it is a quality firearm). The Pico, Kahr, my LCR9mm and recent Smith and Wesson 642 get a lot of travel. In winter, the Small wonderful, snagfree Beretta Nano 9mm gets a lot of mileage, mostly in a small OWB holster. Sometime just Apex.
