Justifying the Gun

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BlueTrain, I wasn't offering up the founders reasons for the second amendment here for people to debate - I only quote the federalist papers to use them to show what their intent was when they wrote the second amendment. And their intent was that the right of the individual citizen to keep and bear arms shall not be infinged - and that said citizen in question need not be part of any well regulated militia, or any other militia for that matter in order to have that right.

Our reasons for wanting to keep and bear arms TODAY certainly bear no resemblance to their reasons back then for wanting us to have the right - but even if you disagree with those reasons for putting in the second amendment, it *IS* clear what the *INTENT* was. And it wasn't just for a standing army.


I keep arms for my own and my family's protection and because I enjoy shooting them for sport and I am also a hunter.
 
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Look, you guys who want to dispute the choices I've made and the way I judge the risks and benefits in my life are free to proselytize elsewhere. I don't have any use for your arguments that the way I've sorted this issue out is wrong just because it differs from yours.

You don't like the way I manage my life? Well, don't get your panties all in a knot, you don't need to convince me you're right and I'm wrong in order to justify your ways- unless you're really insecure about how you've made your decisions and need to be agreed with in order to be at ease with them.

None of you has presented an argument that convinces me that my judgments are incorrect, that my level of paranoia is too low, or that the world is so different now that experience doesn't count in making decisions.

OldMarksman: You better hope your confidence in your perception of the legal stuff isn't just the product of arrogant suppositions, which I suspect is the case. I see no credentials or proof of your credibility that leads me to believe you have any elevated knowledge or prescience that validates your lecture about such issues in my life- it's just pompous pontification.

I wrote: It's imprudent not to consider the risks of CCing when considering the risks of NOT CCing, and that analysis requires objectivity...

You wrote: Yep. Just did that for you.

No, you didn't, there's too much paranoia about being attacked and too little recognition of the risks of carrying a gun in your lecture for it to be considered "objective", or of any use to me.

Winchester: You ought to take a look at why you're so upset with what I wrote about the way I manage my CC permit, you're waaaay too angry, frightened and insecure about the issue of CCing and the risks of everyday life. You ought to seek the intelligence and maturity to allow for others to find different truths than yours, and have enough manners to call them something other than "BS".

What you call a "gambler's fallacy" (spelled "fallacy"; look it up) is actually a "reverse gambler's fallacy". A "gambler's fallacy" would be to assume that since for so many years I've not needed a gun, the odds are that I will because the odds are 1:1- just as likely to need a gun as to not need a gun, like heads or tails on a coin flip. What you propose is actually a "reverse gambler's fallacy" which says that since I haven't needed a gun for so long, I won't need one tomorrow. Any sort of "gambler's fallacy" requires that the odds need to be as even as the chance of heads or tails from a coin flip are: 1:1- each is just as likely as the other. It's rampant paranoia to assume that the odds are even between needing a gun and not needing a gun, which is, of course, preposterous.

BlueTrain: I agree- can anyone be in doubt of what the response might be if someone takes up arms against our government as it's constituted, no matter how it has evolved? They didn't enable the 2A so as to provide the citizens the means to topple the Constitution- based government they constructed- the one we have now, they enabled us to have guns to PROTECT this form of government. In nearly every oath of office the words say "... preserve, protect and defend the Constitution of the United States from enemies foreign and domestic" which would include armed insurrection against the US gov't., the 2A notwithstanding.
 
No one, absolutely no one in the entire history of firearms has ever needed a firearm until the actual moment they needed it, and then they needed it really badly. Is there really a choice?
 
Lot of good points being made. Too bad about getting personal; that detracts from the discussion.

I think it was Thucidities (sp?) in perhaps the first modern political history, who pointed out that a disarmed population was subject to tyranny, and an armed population was much harder to dominate. (This was concerning early Athenian conquest of surrounding islands...also in this discussion was the struggle to build an empire abroad, without loosing the democratic base in the homeland...something we all confront with the Patriot act, GitMo, ect.). Aristotle had made this general point earlier, saying that an armed population could not be enslaved, and a disarmed population could not be really free.

Both Aristotle and Socrates agreed that the basis of most intelligent commentary on human societies started with an understanding of human nature, which is essentially unchanging in the time spans we are discussing. (Changes in our basic motivations, or 'nature' are evolutionary, and probably take a long long time.)

From this basis, and lots of military history, I find the 2A as timely now as it was in 1776. The key factor, mans' basic nature, has not changed at all as far as I can tell.

In terms of carry; lets all make those individual decisions. No one can say what % chance another person has of needing their gun. You dont live where they live, or know who they must deal with.
 
You only need to need it and not have it ONE TIME to realize you should have carried. If I didn't trust myself to carry, I would not carry.

And those that warn about legal ramifications (unless you are talking about states without the castle law like New York, for example) usually don't understand them.

I will agree that different states have different laws - and the after effects of using a gun to protect yourself that results in the death of an assailant might have some legal impact - but in practice, the jury sides with the shooter defending himself more than 99% of the time and with states that have the castle law, those concerns are minor.

Don't believe me? check http://www.thearmedcitizen.com/

Maybe you'll believe this - read a few hundred of these FOUR THOUSAND news articles on this website where common citizens used a gun to protect themselves from an assailant. They go on and on and on - with very nearly NONE of the defensive shooters facing charges - rarely does it even GET to a jury - the cops don't even bring up charges.

Now I won't personally criticize anyone who chooses not to carry - that's a personal choice - but don't say that people who carry all the time don't understand the legal ramifications it entails. That site shows the legal ramifications - with the castle law in states like mine (Georgia), Florida and Texas, for example - you are IMMUNE from lawsuits that might come up as a result of your using your gun to defend yourself with regard to harm to an assailant (but you better be VERY careful not to hit any innocent bystanders - no one denies that concealed carry is a HUGE responsibility).

But in New York - I confess that is NOT the case. You CAN be sued by the deceased assailants family so if I lived in NY, I am not so sure I would want to carry either (they also make it very hard for you to get a permit in the first place, BTW).

In terms of carry; lets all make those individual decisions. No one can say what % chance another person has of needing their gun. You dont live where they live, or know who they must deal with.

Well said, kiov. +1

Also who forced Winchester_73 to read this article and waste his time? Whomever forced him to read this thread - that wasn't a nice thing to do. I have a bone to pick with whomever forced him to post his rant too.
 
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congrats

I am glad to hear you are enjoying your guns.
I recommend Dillon reloadind for a start.

First time I used my gun a local pot head thought I had called the cops on him
and he came behind the c-store counter to do something to me.( he smoked/sold on the lot all the time.)
I pointed a 4'' Smith&Wesson 357 at him and he left.(he stopped but I think he knew I would not shoot.)
I was 20 and more scared than he was.
Second time was in a gas station parking lot when 4 guys where trying to decide to rob me. (wrong part of town at 1am) I was traveling through and running low on gas. I displayed the outline in my pocket (hand on weapon).
It was an instant sucess. I had a five shot .38 smith and was worried about running out of ammo.
Third time was a road rage thing in a parking lot. Guy exited his car and approached mine. I placed my hand on my .38 special stuck between the seats and said "don't touch my car" calmly and he went from angry to aware of his danger.

So in twenty-two years I think it has saved me from two fights and one possible robbery.
 
Look, you guys who want to dispute the choices I've made and the way I judge the risks and benefits in my life are free to proselytize elsewhere.
Not attempting to convince, just to educate.

OldMarksman: You better hope your confidence in your perception of the legal stuff isn't just the product of arrogant suppositions, which I suspect is the case.
I am highly confident in my "perception". I know the letter of the relevant laws in my state and several others; I've read all of the available relevant case law here; I spend a fair amount of time each week discussing the subject with attorneys and current and former police officers; I've taken CCW training; and I've read very carefully a number of books on the subject written by experts.

Here's the most recent, and I recommend it; It's called Lesson from Armed America, by Mark Walters and Kathy Jackson, and I got it here:

http://www.amazon.com/Lessons-Armed-America-Mark-Walters/dp/0982248768/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1261160913&sr=1-1

I see no credentials or proof of your credibility that leads me to believe you have any elevated knowledge or prescience that validates your lecture about such issues in my life- it's just pompous pontification.
Well, no, I am not Massad Ayoob; I'm not Kathy Jackson; I'm not Cosmoline or Fiddletown; I've never been called in as an expert witness in a firearms case and never will be.

I did work directly for a chief attorney for two years and directly with attorneys for the better part of two decades. I also co-authored the risk management process used in a major Fortune 500 corporation, and it has stood the test of time.

Also, I am addressing the general subject. I do not know enough about your life to advise you.

...there's too much paranoia about being attacked and too little recognition of the risks of carrying a gun in your lecture for it to be considered "objective", or of any use to me.

Paranoia? How's that? Here's the definition:

1 : a psychosis characterized by systematized delusions of persecution or grandeur usually without hallucinations
2 : a tendency on the part of an individual or group toward excessive or irrational suspiciousness and distrustfulness of others

Attacks happen. Infrequently, yes, but they do happen, the consequences can be extremely severe. There is more than one mitigation method available; for example, after having looked at the crime stats map in our metropolitan area, I avoid many areas completely and others at night, and we do not go to a number of restaurants and shops that we used to frequent.

However, the perps are out there, and they are mobile; in our "good neighborhood" we've had two armed robberies and two car jackings just since Thanksgiving; add the adjacent suburbs and the total jumps to a dozen or more. By the way, this represents a significant increase over prior periods, and several of us find it alarming. That's not counting muggings, burglaries, and strong-arm robberies.

I don't see how recognizing those facts in risk management can be called paranoia.

On the risks of carrying a gun: first, and foremost, I presume that one would do so lawfully and conduct himself prudently and lawfully while doing so. That means, among other things, that your gun does not come out until the sky is about to come down on you. You have alluded to the possibility of being subjected to adverse legal action for carrying a gun; if the gun has not come out, there is no basis for concern; if it has, it is because you have much bigger problems than what the DA might say.

But one might take it further. For both cases--carrying a gun, and avoiding and defending against attack, one would first identify all of the significant risks, and then analyze them; consider possible mitigation techniques; and finally, make a decision on whether and how to mitigate the risks or to accept them without mitigation.

Analyzing the risks involves both (1) assessing the likelihood of occurrence--a very difficult process, which often requires a lot of subjectivity, and (2) assessing the potential consequences.

I submit that there are more risks attendant to carrying a gun than the legal ones--consider the possibility of accident or loss, for example. How likely? Hard to judge. How serious? Can they be mitigated? And finally, how does the potential outcome compare to what could happen if one is not carrying when the need materializes?

Of course, if the initial assumption--that of lawful and prudent conduct--is wrong, that moves the whole discussion to another subject, and that is not about "justifying the gun."

It's rampant paranoia to assume that the odds are even between needing a gun and not needing a gun, which is, of course, preposterous.

Agree that it's an entirely unrealistic assessment, but I would not try to ascribe a psychological reason for it.

However, it "ain't just the odds, it's the stakes", as they say, and the same thing applies to seat belts, air bags, fire extinguishers, selection of fire resistant fabrics, locking up poisons, and carrying pepper sprays. Very low odds, and very high stakes, in each case.

Each person's assessment and decision may vary. I try to mitigate the risks to which you allude by understanding the laws, training, the use of safe holsters, education, and more training.

I try to mitigate the risks of being attacked the same way, and by constant alertness, thinking ahead, and by recognizing that non-attendance is the best way to survive any violent confrontation.

I keep my firearms secure, I have several fire extinguishers in the house, cell phones, and an automatic emergency generator. I do not bungee jump or ride a motorcycle, I no longer own and will never own a muzzle loading weapon (ever try to identify the risks on that?), I do not go up on the roof, and I do not have a chain saw and never will again. Perhaps some people would consider some of these to border on "paranoia."

I hope you find this helpful.
 
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Who needs justification? There's plenty of our fellow humans who have been attacked to give justification to anyone for SD. This is one dangerous planet! That's not paranoia, it just shows that some have been paying attention.

I have 3 incidents off the top of my head that happened to me. One was a strong arm robbery of me and my Wife in Columbus ohio by two men. When I put my hand on my 1911 in its holster we all became friends real fast. Another time in Columbus I had just beat up an off duty cop with a PR-24 outside Eastland Lanes after he seen his Wife coming out with another man and began hitting her...he went to a pocket in a way I didnt like so drew to a low ready position to be on the safe side. And the last time was against a dog that was attacking me in Colorado Springs...I shot once into the grass to turn the dog from the attack, it worked.

Is that enough justification for you? :D
 
One thing I pick up in this thread and so many others is the way in which people really, really distrust the federal government and like to point out how one of the things of the constituation is that the power of the federal government is limited. In the beginning, one fear was that the power of the federal government would overwhelm that of the states. There was a wish, on the part of some, at least, to preserve state's power. However, when the states actually exercise their authority and it is different from that of another state, then people here don't like that either, usually quoting the constitution in support.

Maybe some people would prefer to live in Somalia or other other place where there is essentially no government.
 
I agree with you Bluetrain. Things are not like they were when the founders wrote the constitution and I really think the success of the constitution and our government that was founded on it FAR exceeded their expectations.

But we all agree that the second amendment was drafted to preserve the right of we private citizens of this great country to be armed.

The fact is though, that we don't have these weapons in case we need to overthrow the government - it's because - as so many people have stated here - when seconds count - the cops are only minutes away.
 
OldMarksman: Your pompous lecturing and your assumption that you have anything to "educate" me or anyone else on are tiresome and trite, and absolutely without merit.

No doubt your arrogant assessment of yourself leads you to being "highly confident", but that's an unsupported supposition- all your purported knowledge and reading of case law and coffee with your pals still leaves you without any authority to determine outcomes or even to predict them. It's only your suppositions of the actions of others, which have no value.

And now you say "I do not know enough about your life to advise you." Two things- who asked you for any advice? What makes you think anyone would? And so far what you've written has no value whatsoever to me, as "advice" or anything else. I already know way more than you do about what you presume to lecture me on. And second, right, you don't know enough about my life to have anything whatsoever to say about it without being presumptuous. So why have you taken issue with me? Pompous arrogance, that's why.

You wrote: "...we've had two armed robberies and two car jackings just since Thanksgiving; add the adjacent suburbs and the total jumps to a dozen or more. By the way, this represents a significant increase over prior periods, and several of us find it alarming. That's not counting muggings, burglaries, and strong-arm robberies.

I don't see how recognizing those facts in risk management can be called paranoia."

Using circumstances of your environment, you presume to "advise me" on dealing with mine. Not only is that presumptuous, it's simply pointless.

What follows in your post is just redundant blather that says nothing new or informative; these issues have been hashed over time and again here. I researched every source I could find and took all the training I could sign up for before I applied for my CCW permit, 37 years ago, and have kept abreast of what the current situations are; it's pretty evident that you have nothing to tell me that I don't already know.

I can't imagine there's anything AT ALL that you could offer me that I'd find "useful".
 
OldMarksman: Your pompous lecturing and your assumption that you have anything to "educate" me or anyone else on are tiresome and trite, and absolutely without merit.
I'll overlook the personal attack and point out that I used to teach the subject of risk management to some pretty important people.

And so far what you've written has no value whatsoever to me, as "advice" or anything else.
To you, maybe, but perhaps others might enjoy the discussion.

I already know way more than you do about what you presume to lecture me on.

OK, then.

And second, right, you don't know enough about my life to have anything whatsoever to say about it without being presumptuous.
I think I said that, in so many words..

So why have you taken issue with me? Pompous arrogance, that's why.
Taken issue? No. I have tried to expand on the discussion.

Using circumstances of your environment, you presume to "advise me" on dealing with mine.

I thought I made it abundantly clear that I cannot and will not try to advise you.

You have, here and in prior correspondence, pointed out that there are serious legal risks involved in carrying and using a gun. I agree with that, and I think that contribution to the forum is valuable. You have than said that you believe that for most people, that risk outweighs the potential risk mitigation. You have not, in my mind, supported that assertion; do not take that as a criticism, it's just that you have made the assertion and I haven't seen a supporting argument except that you have not yet needed a gun.

I've tried to set forth, in a reasoned manner, both a means of assessing the question and my reasons for having come to a different conclusion, with the hope that others might find it valuable.

I am sorry that you do not.
 
Uncle Billy, who said my post was about you?

My perspective, often written here, is that at least here in New York, carrying a concealed gun all the time with the intent to use it is potentially fraught with serious legal repercussions and possible criminal charges, none of which are predictable or consistent, to an extent that the risks of incurring them aren't balanced by an equally serious need to protect my personal safety or the safety of those I'm responsible for with a firearm, all the time. Situational awareness and risk assessment, principles that ought to be 24/7/365 primary tools for everyone, and some small amount of good fortune have enabled me to avoid finding myself in a situation that's beyond my control so far that having a gun becomes the only solution. If I see the possibility of being at risk in a situation to the extent that using a gun- properly regarded as the last resort- is apt to be where things go, I'll avoid the situation with whatever legal means are available. So far, that's worked for me and mine which is why I don't CC all the time. This also avoids being in situations that would be made worse by the presence of a gun, situations that would pass as trivial and inconsequential otherwise.

Uncle Billy, until you hastily read my post and assumed incorrectly that my post was about you, I hadn't really read your posts. So I quoted above, because I do agree with you on what you said there. My posts were targeted towards those who think that carrying is the result of paranoia but more specifically, people who assume they are safe because for the last 10 years (or 50 or whatever) that will be safe tomorrow or later the same day. Since it was not about you, I did use the "gambler's fallacy" point correctly - the belief that the past will have an effect or change the odds on the outcome of something in the future is a fallacy - which is my understanding of the concept. Everyday the odds are the same of needing your CCW so I say its reasonable to always carry even though I do not. Situations where one will 100% need a CCW to be used in self defense cannot be predicted, so I say err on the side of caution and I think you agree with that for the most part.

Furthermore, I was not "angry" I was just in a state of disbelief that some people think that carrying isn't necessary because they never had a problem in X number of years. I don't understand why nitpicking my gamblers phalissy spelling makes your look better or makes you right? I guess we can't argue because I don't think we disagree?

you're waaaay too angry, frightened and insecure about the issue of CCing and the risks of everyday life

You know what they say when you assume things? Well it's perfectly evident here. I've had my CCP for about 6 mos plus - I work full time and occasionally I meet people from CL to buy things and what not and I've carried exactly 4 times in 6mos+. Hasty generalizations only make you look bad. Even though I don't carry all that often, its foolish for me or anyone to criticize those who do carry 24/7 because of the reasons I and others have mentioned. In a way I was playing devil's advocate for people who choose to carry always.

If I was offensive to anyone else in my other post, I am sorry. I just can't see why someone can think its laughable to carry a gun, say to the local gas station to get gas, because one must remember: the criminal does not plan his life around you. Also its dangerous to assume someone will not do something based on a logic principle when many people simply are deficient in logic.

The most important thing in all of this is that we are all granted the freedom of choice in the matter. Many of us have differing opinions and we should be allowed to act on our personal principles, not the views of someone else.

You ought to seek the intelligence and maturity to allow for others to find different truths than yours, and have enough manners to call them something other than "BS".

Even though my other post had nothing to do with you, I do stand by my assessment that people who say that "thus far I have not needed my CCP so I will not need it tomorrow" are foolish, misinformed, ignorant, careless, or maybe a combination of all the above and then some. There is no inherent "truth" in the belief that occurrences in the past make you safe tomorrow. Obviously you completely misunderstood my original post.

Also who forced Winchester_73 to read this article and waste his time? Whomever forced him to read this thread - that wasn't a nice thing to do. I have a bone to pick with whomever forced him to post his rant too.

True, but I think many people find a thread nauseating that’s based on "why carry a gun if for the last 20 yrs nothing has happened". I have a right to express my opinion whether or not it’s a criticism of someone else – think of it as a constructive criticism which is meant to help others because I definitely do not log on here to issue insults. I just am in disbelief after I read certain things and I act accordingly.
 
To the OP

You appear to have misunderstood my reasons for asking. Thanks for your opinion, though.

Not exactly. You basically have asked is it acceptable to have a gun for recreation primarily? - yes it is. But then you posed a question as if carrying was not worth doing, which is something I totally disagree with you about. Sometimes I might forget to carry, or not feel like doing it but that does mean I know that nothing will happen to me. Citing how many years one has been safe does not mean you will be safe tomorrow - thats the best way to sum up my opinion. I read opinions of that nature in this thread and stated mine on that flawed belief system. Its that simple. Perhaps you will witness or experience something to change your mind, perhaps not. If you believe life is like a box of chocolates, then carrying is a very reasonable and respectable choice. Enough said.
 
Meant kindly...

I do stand by my assessment that people who say that "thus far I have not needed my CCP so I will not need it tomorrow" are foolish, misinformed, ignorant, careless, or maybe a combination of all the above and then some.

I will agree that they are not using a very good reason for coming to their conclusion...but personally, I'd stop there.:)
 
True, but I think many people find a thread nauseating that’s based on "why carry a gun if for the last 20 yrs nothing has happened". I have a right to express my opinion whether or not it’s a criticism of someone else – think of it as a constructive criticism which is meant to help others because I definitely do not log on here to issue insults.

I was only responding to your point that the OP was wasting everyone's time by starting this thread.

You made some good points in that statement but it always gets my goat when someone complains about someone elses post being "a waste of time" It always begs the question - then why did you read it?

But I was just attacking the waste of time statement you made - I wasn't going after the CCW points you made here. In fact, I agree with them.

And Uncle Billy - you're a rather emotional sort. As soon as someone starts calling other people names - it's usually because they've lost an argument and that's all they have left to fight with.
Oldmarksman was looking for some interesting discussion on points you made to try and see your reasons for believing them and you just got pissy that he disagreed with you and you started name calling. That's NOT going to earn you much respect among the other members here.

This statement you made here is asinine.

Look, you guys who want to dispute the choices I've made and the way I judge the risks and benefits in my life are free to proselytize elsewhere.

In so many words, you're saying "If you don't agree with me, then all you guys get out of here". These forums are for respectful and polite discussion and debate. If the you feel the kitchen is too hot for you, it shouldn't have to be everyone but you that needs to leave.
 
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Cremon,

I agree with what you said about my comment regarding wasting time. In fact, if I was not very tired and at work currently, I could see myself saying the exact same thing about someone else. Thanks for pointing it out.
 
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