Justifying the Gun

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I have a nephew who had to defend himself during a home invasion.
Two men entered his home armed, robbed him and upon reaching the door, turned around and pointed a weapon at him. My nephew produced a weapon and fired striking one, and contuined firing utill he stoped both men. He not only stopped the men from robbing him, he may have saved his own life.


The lesson is, if you wait till you are a victum of a crime before you arm youself, you may have waited to long.
 
I've owned guns since the age of 9, and the reasons I enjoy them has varied through the decades; different seasons of life seem to re-shape priorities and interests.
That said, I fully intend that every bullet I use will be for some type of recreation or sport. I hope and pray that I can accomplish that simple goal, but I know there are folks who don't value my life, or my family's, at all.

I carry every day; justification is unnecessary, in my opinion.
 
Why??

Why the need to justify a purchase of a gun or anything else?

If we go through life trying to justify our actions, we will miss a lot in life.

My father gave me a .44 Charter Arms Bulldog and a .22 S&W revolver when I was 12 yrs old. I shot many shells through both of those guns. I did not shoot my classmates but am pretty sure many of them needed shooting. Now days people would probably try to have my father arrested for allowing me to own a gun. Back then, all kids owned a gun or two.

When I was about a year older, a lady for whom my father was building a new home gave me a new Stevens 20 ga double barrel. I was then hooked on guns.

Since then there have been well over 300 guns bought and I never justified buying any of them. In fact the only justifcation for some of them would have been I wanted it, I worked for the money to buy it and it is money in the bank to own it.

If I were to sell any gun I own, I would be able to do so for more money than I paid for it. They increase in value with proper care.

As Jeff Cooper once said, a gun is an item of value. If you sell it, you have lost an item of value and the money you got for it will soon be spent and you will have neither the gun or money.

Go buy the gun and do not look back on the purchase.
 
It seems to me that there are many more people who CC all the time than there are people who really need to, all things considered. I have had a CC permit for 37 years, but only once did having a gun along make a difference, and I was able to predict that it would which is why I brought my Walther along. I wrote of it here last June:

"Taking a walk in a local park with my oldest son when he was about 5 or 6; some dog-lover had unleashed his Doberman, which was romping around with his new freedom maybe 50 yards from my son and me. The dog spots us and makes a bee-line, teeth bared. I push my son behind me and take a Weaver stance with my Walther PPK loaded with Silvertips, aimed at the dog. The owner sees what's about to happen and frantically calls the dog off. About 10 yards from us the dog turns away and returns to his owner. I drop the muzzle and hold until the dog is on the leash and outward bound. The owner shouts back to me as they depart the area, 'He's never bitten anyone! He's just playing!'. I shout back, 'I've never killed anything, but I was serious!' ".

In the past, I would have avoided the park if that dog owner was there, so as to avoid being assailed by his dog, which I had seen attack others in the past. But being denied the use of the park by someone who was continually breaking the law (all dogs must be leashed in the park) led me to arming myself to assert our right to be there unmolested. I figured that if I had to use the gun at all it would be against the dog, which I figured wouldn't bring me as much legal difficulty as using it against a person would. In the 37 years I've had a CCW permit, that's the only time having a gun was justified, and it was a situation I purposely took on.

My perspective, often written here, is that at least here in New York, carrying a concealed gun all the time with the intent to use it is potentially fraught with serious legal repercussions and possible criminal charges, none of which are predictable or consistent, to an extent that the risks of incurring them aren't balanced by an equally serious need to protect my personal safety or the safety of those I'm responsible for with a firearm, all the time. Situational awareness and risk assessment, principles that ought to be 24/7/365 primary tools for everyone, and some small amount of good fortune have enabled me to avoid finding myself in a situation that's beyond my control so far that having a gun becomes the only solution. If I see the possibility of being at risk in a situation to the extent that using a gun- properly regarded as the last resort- is apt to be where things go, I'll avoid the situation with whatever legal means are available. So far, that's worked for me and mine which is why I don't CC all the time. This also avoids being in situations that would be made worse by the presence of a gun, situations that would pass as trivial and inconsequential otherwise.

Following what others do only because others do it is a really poor way to make decisions, especially important ones with serious consequences. Thinking for one's self, independent from but considering the opinions and advise of others, and making decisions based on one's own analysis of the factors involved is the most credible way to go.
 
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This thread just hit a repressed memory for me,of why i sold my Ruger P90 20 years ago and just got back into guns and got my CHL.

Not just to reminisce,but to show how owning a gun can affect you.
I was 22 iirc and im 39 now i was on my day off and just got paid with a few hindered dollars.Concealed weapons were NOT legal in Ohio back then,but i carried that .45 in my car between my seats as i traveled 80 miles a day to and from work.
I decided after i cashed my check to go to a local strip club,they did NOT serve alcohol as it was a fully nude club,silly laws in Ohio.I had a good time and was leaving and going to my car in their parking lot,it was 2pm in broad daylight.I kept watching 3 guys as they started walking to me mumbling and ranting,all but 1 looked really high so i made my way to my car quickly.
As i sat down i pulled my P90 and racked the slide as back then i never carried chambered,i do now anyhow.As i kept the gun pointed at the door but below the window the not so high looking guy was within 3 feet from my window.
I don't know why but he turned and left,i may have seen or sensed my gun.

I sold my gun about 2 weeks later and stayed away from guns for almost 20 years.Why? had he progressed and i shot him id most likely could still be in prison.That scared me alot more than almost shooting someone as i was protecting myself.It just hit me why i sold that gun and didn't care to own another one until recently and its now legal to get a CHL here now.

It is a big and scary responsibility,one that can save your life or change it forever.That doesn't justify me owning guns now,i did that for other reasons as i feel the world has gotten a bit more dangerous.
 
Since we're all bringing up old incidents here...

I've never pulled a gun to protect myself but about 24 years back, I was a store manager for a large electronics retail chain. They had small stores and I bet everyone who reads this has probably been in one of those stores, but I won’t mention the name here. This was near Atlanta GA (I don’t live all that far from where that happened today).

Anyway, I was working alone that day and it was quiet – no customer traffic or very little. It was just before lunch and I’d put some music on to listen to and was flipping through a magazine when this guy comes in and says he wants a stereo. I ask him if he means car stereos and he says “Yeah”. What I noticed but didn’t pay any attention to until later is that he was looking around the store (to be sure he and I were alone). He followed me over to the car stereo display and when I asked him what the most important factor to him in a stereo was, he pulled out a small caliber striker fired semi auto and told me he wanted all the cash in my register.

Now I was 22 years old at the time and to me it seemed pretty exciting. Oh wow, my otherwise drab day is not so drab and my mind was focusing on the big story I now had that I’d be able to share with everyone. I took him over to the register and opened it for him. As he’s emptying the drawer I guess I was standing too close because he screams at me to move away from him. I complied and after he got all the cash, he told me to take him to the safe. This company’s stores do not have safes. I explained that to him and he ordered me to take him to the back room. He put one hand on my shoulder and pushed the barrel of his small pistol into my back.

It was then that it FINALLY dawned on me that this guy might just kill me. I went from excitement to stark terror in a split second and I began appealing to my deceased mother in my mind to please do what she could with the almighty to help spare my life there and then (If you’ve never been robbed before that last line might seem strange to you, but anyone who's looked down the barrel of a gun from a stranger knows what was going through my mind).

We get to the back room and he looks all around and realizes there is no safe. He orders me into the bathroom and closes the door behind me. A few seconds later I heard the front door chime and I came back out and called the police. The guy robbed 3 other stores besides mine in that shopping strip – one after another in quick succession and took off. I did not own a gun back then. And the gun laws were not what they are now.

I disagree with the other people here – nothing prepared me for how that felt – I don’t care about the being violated part or someone taking things from me by force. It was not knowing if that guy was going to kill me. There is NO WAY FOR YOU TO KNOW IF AN ARMED ROBBER WILL KILL YOU WHEN HE IS DONE. I don’t care who you are, you can’t sit there and say you were robbed at gunpoint once and knew the guy wouldn’t kill you. Maybe you had a HUNCH but you didn’t know. And that brings me to this:

I keep a gun on me now – I conceal carry. I am no longer in retail but – if something like that happened to me today, I would – at my first opportunity – draw my gun and shoot the robber at least TWO times without saying ANYTHING at all, consequences be d@%#ed. Not out of anger – but out of FEAR. Because it’s the “not knowing” whether or not the guy will kill me that motivates me to shoot in that circumstance. Mind you, I wouldn’t draw a gun if he’s staring at me the whole time – but this guy was distracted – kept looking over his shoulder, looking around – this guy was definitely worried about someone walking in on us. I was very thankful he didn’t kill me that day and I bear the guy no hatred over that incident now – but had I been armed – and knew what I know now – he would probably be dead.
 
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It seems to me that there are many more people who CC all the time than there are people who really need to, all things considered.
What defines a "real need"? That's tough to assess. Fortunately, in most jurisdictions today, that's an individual determination, and not something that is imposed on an individual by someone else.

My perspective, often written here, is that at least here in New York, carrying a concealed gun all the time with the intent to use it is potentially fraught with serious legal repercussions and possible criminal charges...
That goes without saying. Isn't it true anywhere?

Perhaps you meant to say, "carrying a concealed gun all the time with the intent to use it if it should become necessary...". The very emergence of that necessity would itself mitigate most of the risk of the criminal charges to which you allude, and proper training and education will go a long way toward managing the remaining risk.

One must also understand that not having a gun if it were to become necessary is also frought with serious risks.

If I see the possibility of being at risk in a situation to the extent that using a gun- properly regarded as the last resort- is apt to be where things go, I'll avoid the situation with whatever legal means are available.

Avoiding clearly dangerous situations is always a good idea; I practice that myself, and I do carry a gun.

However, if you were to replace "is apt to be where things go" with "may become necessary", you have an entirely different assessment.

No one can predict with any confidence when the need will materialize.

The likelihood that anyone will ever have to resort to the use of deadly force is almost always very, very low indeed. The other part of the risk management equation involves the potential consequence of not being able to protect oneself, should the risk materialize. That could be very severe indeed. It is the potential consequence that makes the risk unacceptable and makes mitigation necessary.

The same thing applies to smoke detectors, fire extinguishers, seat belts, air bags, and having the means of calling for help in a medical emergency. In each analysis, the probability of need is very low; the potential consequence, very severe; the emergence of the actual need, unpredictable; the wisdom of being able to mitigate the risk, obvious.

One can drive safely, keep combustibles away from ignition sources and keep electrical circuits up to code, eat healthily and eliminate hazards, and stay out of dangerous neighborhoods, but one cannot minimize the likelihood of risk occurrence sufficiently to eliminate the need for further mitigation when the potential consequence is sufficiently severe.

So far, that's worked for me and mine which is why I don't CC all the time.

I survived driving without seat belts for years and without airbags for decades. But as they say, past performance is no indication of future results. What has not happened in the past just does not matter today.

This also avoids being in situations that would be made worse by the presence of a gun, situations that would pass as trivial and inconsequential otherwise.
Not sure what you are saying here. Do you feel that having a gun might lead you to unlawful, threatening behavior? If so, you've probably made the right decision--for yourself. If, however, you find yourself under violent attack and cannot retreat, you may reassess your decision--possibly when it's too late.

Personally, I've always been a calm and reasonably polite person, and when I am armed I am even more so.

I know my obligation to avoid, disengage, evade, and if possible, escape; the gun is a last resort. That means, when it becomes necessary to use it, there is no remaining alternative, and if I don't have it, my options have been exhausted.

Following what others do only because others do it is a really poor way to make decisions, especially important ones with serious consequences. Thinking for one's self, independent from but considering the opinions and advise of others, and making decisions based on one's own analysis of the factors involved is the most credible way to go.
Yep!
 
I'm retired le and conceivably reside in the safest town this side of Eden. But I carry whenever possible because of what is possible. I wear a seat belt even though the likelyhood of being involved in an accident is not likely. I carry home insurance even though my home probably will not catch fire. I get flu shots even though I'm a tough old hombre.

If you were able to interview the unfortunate victims who were killed by some deranged animal in what seemed to be otherwise safe settings (schools, churches, restaurants, post offices, working places, public parks, colleges, suburbia, farms-remember In Cold Blood?, you name it), most would say they never dreamed it would happen to them. But it did. I know they're tired, old cliches, but, especially in these times, there's much truth in the adages, "Better to have a gun and not need it than to need a gun and not have it" and "When seconds count, the police are only minutes away."
 
I also live in Maine, grew up here in fact. For the most part, it is a safe place to live if you avoid rough areas of Lewiston, Portland, etc, and many do not feel the need to carry a weapon, aside for protection in rural areas or in the woods from rabid animals.

But the fact is, the State is not the same place it was 20-30 years ago. The violent crime, drugs, entitlement mentality, "Hip-Hop/Gangster" culture/music, taxes, traffic and urban sprawl etc. have turned southern Maine into a place many of us don't even recognize any more. Maine is a better state to live in than many other places IMHO, but it is no where near as nice as it used to be.

You can spend your entire life avoiding trouble, and it can still find you.

I would suggest you watch the news and read the police blotters, and point out all the violent crime to your wife, if you feel you need to find justification for carrying a weapon. Perhaps I'm more paranoid and jaded due to the fact in my line of work I see many violent criminals and assorted scumbags right here in Maine who are allowed to roam the streets, and live off the high taxes we pay. If only Judge Roy Bean was still alive and worked in the Maine Court system...

I think I just talked myself into moving farther north, perhaps into Canada...LOL!!!
 
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I usualy justify buying my guns the same way I justfy buying fishing equipment, and fly tying material. I wanted it.:D Shooting is one of several hobbies I have. Guns, guitars, and fishing equipment can be expensive hobbies. (See how some guys will justify buying that $300 golf club to his wife when he already has a nice set of clubs.) Then again paying my bills, and eating seem to expensive habbits.:p That I can easily justify, and they cost a lot more than my hobbies.
 
justification?

A couple thoughts. I live in a small town( for CT anyway) of around 10k people. I have no fear of any crime. But in my town there was a meth manufacturing raid that busted 2 houses and almost 50 people. At the far end of my STREET there was a home invasion where a woman has threatened with a knife. So no place is totally safe.

I find shooting very enjoyable. I'll go shoot in the sun the rain and the snow. I'll shoot for hours after others are bored stiff. I enjoy the comraderie the thrill of competion and the Zen feeling you can get when it all comes together on your front sight. That to me is the justification.

I got my permit because I thought it would be harder for the government to deny me the opportunity to get one than to take away one I already had. That led in to pistol shooting and I haven't looked back.

I also get the feeling like the OP that my wife is slightly jealous of the interest I have in shooting so I try to balance my time spent on it. However she bought me my first gun a sweet Browning A bolt in 22 caliber so I always say it is all her fault.
pete
 
Consider this, though: Handguns generally aren't free, and even the ones that don't put a dent in your wallet come with a high price in training, discipline and responsibility. If you get one, you normally have some sort of justification for spending the money and/or investing the time to learn how to use, maintain, and store it safely.

I think the term "justify" has been misused in it's application toward gun purchases.

What you described is more akin to a family's financial situation where purchases need to fit within a budget.

I bought a nice parka at Cabela's last week, and didn't need to "justify" it anymore than I need to justify buying a new gun that I want. Different folks have different financial considerations that involve the rest of the family.

For those who are trapped into needing an excuse for buying something they want, they can always "justify" it some how. That we want one, and can afford it, is good enough for many of us---me included.:cool:
 
Uncle Billy: It seems to me that there are many more people who CC all the time than there are people who really need to, all things considered.

OldMarksman: What defines a "real need"? That's tough to assess. Fortunately, in most jurisdictions today, that's an individual determination, and not something that is imposed on an individual by someone else.

A "real need" is the probability of having to resort to a gun because an unavoidable situation that one knows of ahead of time might not be satisfactorily resolvable by any other means.

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Uncle Billy: My perspective, often written here, is that at least here in New York, carrying a concealed gun all the time with the intent to use it is potentially fraught with serious legal repercussions and possible criminal charges...

OldMarksman: Perhaps you meant to say, "carrying a concealed gun all the time with the intent to use it if it should become necessary...". The very emergence of that necessity would itself mitigate most of the risk of the criminal charges to which you allude, and proper training and education will go a long way toward managing the remaining risk.

There's no way to predict every possible situation and study how the law applies in each because there are an infinity of possibilities, and how the law is applied (i.e. what the repercussions will be) is largely unpredictable even in situations that are identical to each other. I'm not very enthusiastic about "casting the dice" with my future by depending on a D.A., a court and a jury being consistent or sympathetic to me on gun issues, so I avoid having the potential of creating any as much as I can- not totally, just as much as I can.

***

OldMarksman: One can drive safely, keep combustibles away from ignition sources and keep electrical circuits up to code, eat healthily and eliminate hazards, and stay out of dangerous neighborhoods, but one cannot minimize the likelihood of risk occurrence sufficiently to eliminate the need for further mitigation when the potential consequence is sufficiently severe.

"Further mitigation" of factors that other means (situational awareness, risk assessment, critical analysis, and the actions they recommend) have reduced to near improbability, by means of something (a gun, for instance) that by itself brings increased and different risks that have real teeth in them, doesn't seem to be a prudent choice to me. You, of course, can disagree.

It's imprudent not to consider the risks of CCing when considering the risks of NOT CCing, and that analysis requires objectivity and ought not to have any emotional input whatsoever. Not many are capable of that much detachment from the things they love (an emotion).

I love my guns, but not so much that I need one in my pocket all the time. They are dangerous on so many levels that having one to fondle in my pocket (or wherever) like I do my Gerber pocket knife or my lucky piece doesn't seem sensible to me, and no matter how anyone protests or disputes this, I'd bet the farm that there are a lot of folks who CC for just those reasons alone, and disregard all the implications of being armed in public. That's NOT to say that's your perspective.


***

Uncle Billy: So far, that's worked for me and mine which is why I don't CC all the time.

OldMarksman: I survived driving without seat belts for years and without airbags for decades. But as they say, past performance is no indication of future results. What has not happened in the past just does not matter today.

Right, today's situations, microcosmic and macrocosmic, are unconnected to the way things were in the past. I've not carried a gun during daily activities for the 30-odd years doing so was legal for me, and never, in all those years, would carrying a gun have been worth the risks and vulnerabilities of doing so. I don't find it necessary now to CC all the time because my assessment of my risks today don't justify taking on the risks of CCing. Yours, of course, may.

***

Uncle Billy: This also avoids being in situations that would be made worse by the presence of a gun, situations that would pass as trivial and inconsequential otherwise.

OldMarksman: Not sure what you are saying here. Do you feel that having a gun might lead you to unlawful, threatening behavior? If so, you've probably made the right decision--for yourself. If, however, you find yourself under violent attack and cannot retreat, you may reassess your decision--possibly when it's too late.

What is "unlawful, threatening" behavior? Are you sure you have totally eliminated any possibility that if you insert a gun into a situation out in public, you won't be accused of "unlawful, threatening" behavior? Are you 100% confident you'll never do anything with your CC weapon that would infuriate someone with an anti-gun agenda who has a position of authority?

"Past performance is no indication of future results" holds here too- just because you never got sideways with an LEO and had to answer charges about what you did with your licensed CCW, doesn't mean you never will, thereby throwing yourself on the whims, whimsy and prejudices of those empowered to alter your future in significant ways. If you trust a court, a grand jury, a D.A., a trial jury and a judge to all agree you were in the right when you did what you did to get you in front of them, then you're a lot more trusting than I ever was.

But that's not what I meant- I was patted down and ID'd once, in a tuxedo, coming out of a concert opening night, in front of my party, because of two things: someone was suspicious I was carrying a gun (I was), and the armed rent-a-cop had the manners and sensitivities of a baboon. As usual, I didn't need the gun along that night.

I never had it fall out on the floor or sidewalk and then had to answer all the doubts and questions from bystanders, never was knocked out from behind and lost it in a mugging, never got into an argument with someone else CCing and had him go postal on me because he saw I was armed and didn't trust I wouldn't shoot him first, never had a nervous cop stop me for speeding and have him put his Glock .40 in my ear when I told him I had a legal, loaded gun... those are what I meant.
 
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This thread serves informed people no use

This whole thread is such a waste of everyone's time. Because someone is "curious" and misunderstands the concept of CC, we are all now posting stories and coming up with possible scenarios to someone who is just too narrow minded to look beyond the "well I never needed it before so why now" BS. If someone lacks the intelligence to realize that people carry for what ifs, and doesn't understand that we all have 1 life to live, I don't feel sorry for them at all when they come on here with some story "it was just another day in the park when suddenly...". Most people do not carry because they know for sure that they will need the gun that day because the very thought defeats the CC concept. They carry because anything can happen at any time - bottom line. Major incidents where CC is valuable are never predicted accruately so why assume that they will not happen? But honestly, I'm allowed to carry, and I think its smart to do because I want to keep on living but if someone else has the "gambler's falacy" (look it up) that because they have not needed their gun for 49 yrs or whatever, they won't need it tommorow, then too bad for them. If someone who chooses to ignore what we all see in the news each day, what we all have read about, then they can only blame themselves. I choose to be master of my own destiny.
 
I'm not very enthusiastic about "casting the dice" with my future by depending on a D.A., a court and a jury being consistent or sympathetic to me on gun issues, so I avoid having the potential of creating any as much as I can- not totally, just as much as I can.
If you are carrying concealed and lawfully, if you do not start a confrontation or agree to engage in mutual combat, if you do not produce the weapon unless and until the use of deadly force is immediately necessary to protect yourself from death or immediate bodily harm, you have no reason to fear the legal process.

If under those circumstances you do then have to produce and perhaps use your weapon, the decision of a jury will be, by far, the least of your worries.

That decision will then depend on the facts and the evidence. If you fire only when there is no alternative, if when you have to fire you do so without performing acts of gross negligence, and if you stop firing when the threat has been stopped, you will likely never be charged. If you are brought to trial, something did not smell right to someone, but it may still be the least of your worries, considering that you might well otherwise be dead or crippled.

...factors that other means (situational awareness, risk assessment, critical analysis, and the actions they recommend) have reduced to near improbability...

Such actions can only keep you from going somewhere where danger is clear. They cannot prevent danger from coming to you. Nor can they do anything to protect you when that happens. Hence the need to decide between mitigation and accepting the risk unmitigated.

Yes, the likelihood is low. I'll agree to that. Establishing that is the first half of the second step of risk management (comes after identifying the risk). The question is, is that likelihood so low that you are willing to accept the risk unmitigated, when you consider the potential consequence (death, crippling injury, loss of a loved one)? If the answer is yes, then you decide to put your self in a position to be able to do absolutely nothing in the event that the risk does materialize. If no, you do not.

What is "unlawful, threatening" behavior?

Exhibiting a weapon in an angry or threatening manner; assault; and so on.

Are you sure you have totally eliminated any possibility that if you insert a gun into a situation out in public, you won't be accused of "unlawful, threatening" behavior? Are you 100% confident you'll never do anything with your CC weapon that would infuriate someone with an anti-gun agenda who has a position of authority?

Might I use your term, "near improbability?" The term of art in risk management is "less than remote"--no more than the likelihood of having to pull a weapon as a last resort in self defense, and for me much lower, since I can control the former more effectively than the latter.

However, the potential consequence is far, far less severe than getting killed or sustaining a crippling injury.

It's imprudent not to consider the risks of CCing when considering the risks of NOT CCing, and that analysis requires objectivity...

Yep.

Just did that for you.
 
michel jhon said:
Not that I buy it, but an argument has been that the 2nd Amendment really refers to states establishing a national guard.

That argument is made by people who say the intention of that that reference is to be decided by a judge and NOT to try and determine the real intent of the founding fathers. Those people cannot argue that the founding fathers intended the second amendment to apply to a standing militia because James Madison said this in federalist paper number 46:

"Besides the advantage of being armed, which the Americans possess over the people of almost every other nation, the existence of subordinate governments,to which the people are attached, forms a barrier against the enterprises of ambition, more insurmountable than any which a simple government of any form can admit of. Notwithstanding the military establishments in the several kingdoms of Europe, which are carried as far as the public resources will bear, the governments are afraid to trust the people with arms. And it is not certain, that with this aid alone they would not be able to shake off their yokes. But were the people to possess the additional advantages of local governments chosen by themselves, who could collect the national will and direct the national force, and of officers appointed out of the militia, by these governments, and attached both to them and to the militia, it may be affirmed with the greatest assurance, that the throne of every tyranny in Europe would be speedily overturned in spite of the legions which surround it. "

Madison goes on with this in federalist paper number 28:

"If the representatives of the people betray their constituents, there is then no recourse left but in the exertion of that original right of self-defense which is paramount to all positive forms of government, and which against the usurpations of the national rulers may be exerted with infinitely better prospect of success than against those of the rulers of an individual State. In a single State, if the persons intrusted with supreme power become usurpers, the different parcels, subdivisions, or districts of which it consists, having no distinct government in each, can take no regular measures for defense. The citizens must rush tumultuously to arms, without concert, without system, without resource; except in their courage and despair. "

They state (in paper number 46) that because the militia itself could conceivably become the problem, the states have to have their own armies to protect themselves from the national rulers and armies (though local states here really don't have their own armies but it doesn't matter for this argument). The second part (paper 28) that if this problem happens at the state level instead of the national level - things are much more difficult because then it's up to the common folk to take matters in their own hands and with their limited resources, rush to arms without formal organization and rise up against the unjust government. In order for the people to do this, they have to be armed to take on that state militia (or national guard) that you mention. In every case an ambitious, unjust or betraying government that uses that same militia to take rights from the people must be overthrown by an armed majority of the common people. Madison summarily states that the second amendment is a safety net for every person in case the government itself at any level needs to be overthrown. Therefore the constitution states that the right of the people to keep and bear arms "Shall not be infringed".

So anyone making the argument that the second amendment was added only to provide for a militia must acknowledge that the intent they are interpreting is that of modern culture and NOT the people who wrote the constitution of the United States in the first place.

The intent of the founders is crystal clear to anyone who reads the Federalist Papers.
 
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Winchester_73 said:
This whole thread is such a waste of everyone's time. Because someone is "curious" and misunderstands the concept of CC, we are all now posting stories and coming up with possible scenarios to someone who is just too narrow minded to look beyond the "well I never needed it before so why now" BS. If someone lacks the intelligence to realize that people carry for what ifs, and doesn't understand that we all have 1 life to live, I don't feel sorry for them at all when they come on here with some story "it was just another day in the park when suddenly...". Most people do not carry because they know for sure that they will need the gun that day because the very thought defeats the CC concept. They carry because anything can happen at any time - bottom line. Major incidents where CC is valuable are never predicted accruately so why assume that they will not happen? But honestly, I'm allowed to carry, and I think its smart to do because I want to keep on living but if someone else has the "gambler's falacy" (look it up) that because they have not needed their gun for 49 yrs or whatever, they won't need it tommorow, then too bad for them. If someone who chooses to ignore what we all see in the news each day, what we all have read about, then they can only blame themselves. I choose to be master of my own destiny.

You appear to have misunderstood my reasons for asking. Thanks for your opinion, though.
 
While I certainly come down on side of the right of citizens to be armed, the Federalist Papers can only used as a source of an argument. They were not passed by anyone's vote. George Mason was probably the source of the original concept of the second admendment, yet he had his concerns, not the least of which was the establishment of private armies. That is the reason for the espression "well regulated."

Many like to bring up the argument that firearms in the hands of citizens will prevent a tyrannical government. While that in itself is an arguable point, I can think of no revolution or civil war fought chiefly with privately owned weapons in the modern age. Not the American Civil War, not the Russian Revolution, not the Boer War, not the Vietnam War. Perhaps the Mexican Revolution. Are there others?
 
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